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Eaton / Cutler Hammer quad Breakers

alan camby

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Guys I a confused about the difference between two breaker styles.

Type BQ and BQC

They are both quad breakers.

For example, I am looking at BQC220220 and BQ220220.
Both feature 2 double pole circuits. So they have two 220, 20 amp curcuits and only take up 2 slots in the breaker box.

The "C" at the end of the number means common trip. Which, from what I understand, is that both poles that are linked together trip together not only externally but also internally.

Why would I not want both poles of a double pole breaker to trip together????
Why would a person select BQ ?

Both breaker styles have the outer cage that physically ties the poles to trip together. While the "C" trip together internally too.

What am I missing here?

Here is a review that explains the difference.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2V2L2LIU2ZNK3

Thanks, Alan
 
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wyliesdiesels

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A breaker for a 240v circuit is required to be common trip.

Whereas a breaker for a MWBC(Multiwire Branch Circuit) is only required to have a handle tie so that both hot legs in the circuit are shut off at the same time for such things as working on the circuit.
 
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A

alan camby

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Ok, I get you. Thanks Wylie.

So I am doing all 220 circuits and not the MWBC. So I need the common trip.

My required breakers are for a 220 baseboard heater, a water heater, and a Dryer.
 

rlitman

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A breaker for a 240v circuit is required to be common trip.

Whereas a breaker for a MWBC(Multiwire Branch Circuit) is only required to have a handle tie so that both hot legs in the circuit are shut off at the same time.

Sure, but in this case we're talking about a single breaker (since it is already riveted all together) with either just the handles tied, or with an internal connection too.

Your scenario only makes a difference to the end user who wants to put two independent breakers together with a handle tie instead of using a single 2-pole breaker.

From that perspective, I can think of no reason you would ever want the BQ over the BQC unless there is perhaps a big difference in cost.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Ok, I get you. Thanks Wylie.

So I am doing all 220 circuits and not the MWBC. So I need the common trip.

My required breakers are for a 220 baseboard heater, a water heater, and a Dryer.

You probably already know this but a dryer needs a 30a circuit...and depending on the water heater and baseboard heater, they may also need a 30a circuit.
 

paul1234

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I realize this thread has been dead for a couple years, but it's not that hard to find the answer to the original question in the first 10 results of Googling "Eaton BQ vs BQC". Unfortunately this forum post is higher in those 10 results. @rlitman: I think your answer is wrong. Here is a link to the catalog showing the answer:

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Eaton/eaton-3br4242l225s-catalog%20page.PDF

The difference is the "C" stands for common-trip. If you get BQ220250 you have two independent dual-pole breakers (in the space of two slots): a 20A and a 50A. If one trips, it won't affect the other. However, both poles of each 2-pole switch trip together (that's what a 2-pole switch is, by definition).

If instead you buy BQC220250, then there is a common trip point which depends on either of the two 2-pole circuits. For example, if the [outer] 20A 2-pole trips on the BQC220250 by exceeding 20A, then both the 20A and the 50A 2-pole circuits will trip. Similarly, if the inner pair exceeds 50A then both circuits trip.

In my opinion, you would be unlikely to want BQC220250 for residential wiring, and the only main advantage of BQ220250 over two 2-slot breakers is that it takes up half as much space in your breaker box.

I hope this helps. Source: the PDF I linked above, and also I'm an electrical engineer specializing in circuit design (but not a licensed electrician).

One more comment: I used 220250 as an example to differentiate the inner and outer breakers. Eaton makes a variety of these in many combinations: 220/220, 220/240, 230/250, etc. It doesn't affect the answer, just picture the inner pair as equivalent to the outer pair if you are considering a BQ[C]220220.
 
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Stuff

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Eaton and others have made this a lot more confusing than it needs to be. They need to get their technical writers to update their catalog pages.

There are lots of discussions about this but no one has reported testing these to see how they actually react. Until that happens I would go with needing the BQC variant if you want to be sure of disconnecting both poles on an overload condition.
 
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pattenp

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Common trip means both poles of the same double pole circuit trip together. Independent trip is where one pole will trip and not the other pole. The independent trip is used on MWBC's where no Line-to-Line loads exist. If Line-to-Line loads are protected the breaker needs to be common trip. My experience with a Quad DP breaker is the same applies. A common trip Quad does not throw both breakers when the trip of one occurs. A common trip quad has two independent breakers but the poles of each are common trip. I looked at the PDF linked above but failed to see where it says on the common trip quad that the two breakers are tripped together.
 

Stuff

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This came up again and searching found interesting note at https://www.amazon.com/review/R2V2L2LIU2ZNK3

Eaton Technical Support:
"The BQC outer pole are a common trip while BQ is an independent trip. Common trip means that not only are the two poles mechanically interlocked externally to the breaker, but they are internally interlocked as well. So a common trip is classified as a two-pole breaker. On a BQ independent type, you can accidentally push more on one side and close only one pole of the mechanical toggle."
 
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sberry

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I just did a little work to a couple churches. 2 different cases but in one the counter tops were wired in home fashion, this had a serving countertop with serving window. Due to the layout it left 1 120V circuit to do most of the work and they constantly tripping and to top it off on the other part of the wall were additional outlets on same one where they put coffee. They had cords running from all parts of the building and to a cook station for 10 roasters they have. real mess.

The installer should have added 2 more circuits and it would have worked for the most part. So, I gave them GJ super overkill. Since all the new were away from water and didn't need gfci I bought a roll of 3 conductor, pulled 3 new cables to the counters and 1 to coffee. Disconnected the feed thry from GFCI on old circuit and made it in to a dedicated 120 abandoned all the old wire, It was a little overkill but the nature of the install made it just as easy to use a lot of spaces and the extra material was not a factor. I used most of the old holes and were there was a daisey chain I ran a new cable. Put multiwires to duplexes and made it so they simply cant overload something , limited recepts to own circuit for most of it, new multi wire to coffee station, was part of a shared and now 2 circuits.

Point of it all was I use double pole breakers in it, I kept 1 power to a box, all the recepts in it were split and on same yoke, doesn't matter if they did common trip which they never will with 8 new to do what 1 was trying to do. It was run by old women and maintenance man and they really didn't know how the building was wired and they trial and error a lot to make it usable.

They had shared stuff in another room for cookers, was great the guy had quads but didn't do any good as no one understood the wire and they overload it with cookers. I add another quad with 4 circuit sand reduce the originals to a circuit to a duplex and shove a child proof in half of it, there was another there they were not sure of , put every outlet on its own. They were loading all this or trying to with 1500 watt food trays. You could use one and a small household crock but when they plug 2 of those in it was lights out.
They completely eliminate overload trips. Basically limited every outlet to 15A, let them cook in the kitchen if they want right on the counter tops, they bout burned the place down a couple times makeshifting it.
The other church the maint guys were having a little issue with breaker and wire sizes. The box was really packed and some 12 was on 15 and 1 12 on a 30. Over its history had 5 guys work on it. I could spot them, they left signatures. The last guy isn't looking to do any more work than he had to, he had one minor mistake in a multi wire but it was fixed lights and never an issue but I told the main guy, the last one is a brilliant electrician with licence and wasn't going to leave the overcurrent wrong.
He was not a perfectionist but also not going to leave any glaring fundamental principles violated.

He also has a limited amount of stock and to uncongest the box some ran 12/3 out of it to some lights used as Jbox in utility where they branch to old wire,,, which was 14 and the 30 went direct to a hidden sump pump outlet. Didn't have any multi on same yokes and they were wired randomly around the panel. Only turns off half the circuit to the first Jbox.
It had a bunch of tandems in it.
 

Stuff

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After reading about your issues with churches I fear they might burn down if I go anywhere near one.
 

Stuff

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You fixed a couple. There are thousands that you haven't that are likely tripping breakers or burning wires.
 

Norcal

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Why is that, we fixed the issues. No longer potential to overload, no more breaker trips.


Electrical work in churches is usually done by members who say they are good at 'lectric. :shocking:
 

Bert_

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I have a few SQD single pole 40A breakers gathering dust on a shelf. They got pulled from a school that was having problems tripping them. Somebody had changed the fuse panel and put those 40A breakers on old #14 wire. I'm guessing that was a "fix" when the 30A fuses were blowing.

Everything was wired in conduit so it was just a matter of pulling some new wire for extra circuits. Lot's of hack work out there, most of it does not surprise me anymore. I had never seen a 1p 40 before that though.
 

Norcal

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I have a few SQD single pole 40A breakers gathering dust on a shelf. They got pulled from a school that was having problems tripping them. Somebody had changed the fuse panel and put those 40A breakers on old #14 wire. I'm guessing that was a "fix" when the 30A fuses were blowing.

Everything was wired in conduit so it was just a matter of pulling some new wire for extra circuits.

Have 3- 60A Zinsco plug in single pole breakers that was for a panel in a juice bar inside a health food store, they wired all 3 handles together, only good thing was it was 208Y/120V, & not 120/240V 3Ø because the breakers are 120/240V rated.

Largest single pole breaker in the collection is a 100A Westinghouse.
 

Bert_

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Have 3- 60A Zinsco plug in single pole breakers that was for a panel in a juice bar inside a health food store, they wired all 3 handles together, only good thing was it was 208Y/120V, & not 120/240V 3Ø because the breakers are 120/240V rated.

Largest single pole breaker in the collection is a 100A Westinghouse.

Ha, I've seen that quite a bit. 3 single poles or a double pole breaker and a single pole wired together for 3 phase. Those three pole breakers are just too spendy:rolleyes:.

Another good one was in a welding shop. Had 240v 3 phase but there was an old single phase panel that must have been salvaged from somewhere. Then their was a tiny panel for the 3rd phase that had only the high leg inside it. The three phase equipment had a 2 pole breaker in the single phase panel and a single pole breaker in the separate panel for the 3rd phase. Had a couple of fused disconnects also but that was the service, very sketchy.

Finally got that one replaced with a real three phase panel when they did a bunch of other work in the building


Somewhat on topic, This makes me appreciate the simplicity of choosing half size breakers for GE panels. The THQP breakers are half the size but are still individual breakers and don't have to be ganged together.
 
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Norcal

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Because of AFCI's the use of twin breakers has been curtailed a lot, but I hate a new install full of twins. GE is the last of the simple to use twin breakers,Crouse-Hinds, before they were given their original name Murray back, & Challenger, had designs where you did not need a quad for a 240V circuit, but the Challenger 40 & 50A twins were pretty dicey, but Challenger's predecessor, Zinsco, had a 60A twin breaker.

Here is a POS Challenger panel.




BTW, I call the Eaton BR line "Zinsco II".




Here is a attempt to use some Gould/ ITE (Siemens) twin breakers in a GE panel.

 
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sberry

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Yes, the churches have members and "handyman" types too. A guy down the road gives me a call, had a service installed and it tripped a breaker. Had a single circuit as I recall to a gfci, shorted a wire, tripped a breaker.
This job took 2 tries to get an inspection, still couldn't believe it passed, turns out the guy was a preacher and had the handyman do it.
The inspector must have got tired of looking at it. You got to wonder how many fukkups could be done in a big church if a guy can't run 12 inches of wire without a short circuit.
 
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