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Eaton sub-panel Neutral issue.

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OKDave

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Hey gang, I have been trying to figure out, why I have been having issues with my dishwasher locking up, when this happens it just makes a clicking noise and and flashes the front panel lights. DW will run fine on another circuit off a short exension cord.
here are the details:
This is a sub panel that feeds the main house.
House is a big L with garage at 90, apartment goes straight back from garage. Garage and apartment where a seperate structure, addition was done 5-6 years ago to connect the main house to garage, at this point the old house panel was abandoned and main house tyed into new sub panel in addition. New meter and panel come into back side of apartment. I will post some aerial pics to give a better explanation.
Thanks for the help, Dave
 
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ddawg16

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From your pics, the neutrals getting hot look like 14 Awg.

Are any of them on MWB ckts? With all those reds and blacks, it sure looks like it. If so, you're missing a lot of handle ties
 
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wyliesdiesels

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looks like loose lugs which will cause lots of heat. the darkest one (gray) has the most heat. the one above it even has a few threads exposed compared to the others.

the resultant heat will cause other wires and lugs nearby to get hot. Notice the wires further away are less burnt and less discolored. the other lugs arent even really discolored.

I would turn off the appropriate breakers, cut off the burnt wire, terminate fresh wire using a torque driver set to the appropriate torque as defined on panel label and then turn power back on and check it in a day.
 
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OKDave

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I have done some wiring and have a general knowledge, but admit I do not know all of ins and outs of things at the panel. I am leaning to bringing in an electrician, but want to make sure I'm safe until then. Luckily we are not in air conditioning mode here, so the load should be less.
 
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OKDave

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wyliesdiesels said:
looks like loose lugs which will cause lots of heat. the darkest one (gray) has the most heat. the one above it even has a few threads exposed compared to the others.

the resultant heat will cause other wires and lugs nearby to get hot. Notice the wires further away are less burnt and less discolored. the other lugs arent even really discolored.

I would turn off the appropriate breakers, cut off the burnt wire, terminate fresh wire using a torque driver set to the appropriate torque as defined on panel label and then turn power back on and check it in a day.
Click to expand...

Could this all have started by one loose lug?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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OKDave said:
Sorry for my ignorance. I had to look up MWB ciruits. I am not aware of any, but not sure
Click to expand...

notice how you have black and red wires alternating? If those are going to the same circuit they are either 240v for a dryer, oven, range, heater, AC, etc or an MWBC, where 2 120v legs share the same neutral. the breakers that feed these circuits need to have handle ties like some of the breakers do.

do the red and black wires go into the same cable sheath?

but this has nothing to do with the neutral issue.
 
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OKDave

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wyliesdiesels said:
notice how you have black and red wires alternating? If those are going to the same circuit they are either 240v for a dryer, oven, range, heater, AC, etc or an MWBC, where 2 120v legs share the same neutral. the breakers that feed these circuits need to have handle ties like some of the breakers do.

do the red and black wires go into the same cable sheath?

but this has nothing to do with the neutral issue.
Click to expand...

I will check this out!
 
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OKDave

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GALLERY]


This guy might not have been screwed in all the way!
 
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OKDave

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I am gonna move this to a better spot (actually a few) and will probably have a whole bar put in when I have an electrician out for some other stuff in the near future. Thanks so much!
 
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TRWham

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wyliesdiesels said:
...

but this has nothing to do with the neutral issue.
Click to expand...

It might if there are MWBCs pulling off the same bus and overloading the neutral. ETA I recounted and found the other 4 neutrals. That doesn't account for the possibility of some of the 2 poles feeding MWBCs.

3 other things catch my eye and deserve some investigation: there are no 15 A breakers in that panel so all of the cables should be 12 AWG or bigger, there are several 2 poles (2 30 A and one 50 A I think) with black wires on both poles and I see a black wire tied to a ground lug.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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TRWham said:
It might if there are MWBCs pulling off the same bus and overloading the neutral. ETA I recounted and found the other 4 neutrals. That doesn't account for the possibility of some of the 2 poles feeding MWBCs.

3 other things catch my eye and deserve some investigation: there are no 15 A breakers in that panel so all of the cables should be 12 AWG or bigger, there are several 2 poles (2 30 A and one 50 A I think) with black wires on both poles and I see a black wire tied to a ground lug.
Click to expand...

there are no twin breakers in the picture. the breakers with alternating black and red wires are on different busses since the breakers are in adjacent spaces.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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there are 6 20a MWBC or 240v circuits. thats quite a bit

what all do you have in this house?

also, are all these wires coming from NM-b/romex? If so, then there is no way the neutrals are the wrong size because they are in a manufactured cable.
 
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Bert_

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Not uncommon in these cheap panels for the screw to gall as you tighten it. Screw feels tight but doesn't clamp the wire. Wiggle the wire, I bet that middle one isn't even remotely tight

It's a connection issue not wire size. The hot spot is at the connection not the whole wire.
 
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OKDave

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Everything is stardard romex. I went ahead a shut down the panel and moved everything that was discolored up to new clean areas. And cut back the bad spots to get to good copper. I torqued it all down, 20 inch pounds (found on the lid of the panel).
I have a electrician coming out to do some work on my weather head, it was damaged in the ice storm we had a few month ago, and is currently slightly messed up. He will have to pull the meter and I am not comfortable with that. So I will have him check out the mwb circuits and double check everything. Anything besides the mwb's to check out?
 
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OKDave

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wyliesdiesels said:
there are 6 20a MWBC or 240v circuits. thats quite a bit

what all do you have in this house?

also, are all these wires coming from NM-b/romex? If so, then there is no way the neutrals are the wrong size because they are in a manufactured cable.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, and in reading about these MWBC it seems like this is done from my original 1965 panel that is now used as a junction box. I'm thinking that when this was done around 5 years ago they made the feed to the old box in MWBC's . All of these are my old orginal house circuits. So if I understand, they should all be tied together with the breaker bridges like a normal double pool?

It is crazy that this passed inspection!
 
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Norcal

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Bert_ said:
Not uncommon in these cheap panels for the screw to gall as you tighten it. Screw feels tight but doesn't clamp the wire. Wiggle the wire, I bet that middle one isn't even remotely tight

It's a connection issue not wire size. The hot spot is at the connection not the whole wire.
Click to expand...

How many people do you think torque their connections?

I still call Eaton BR "Zinsco II", somebody has to be the garbage panel since Zinsco/Sylvania panels were discontinued & the BR line is it. Even considering GE. :D
 
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