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ebay security camera system overload:(

atotalnincompoop

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Apr 9, 2006
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thunder bay
i have been looking on ebay for a 4 ch outdoor security camera systen for my place, i've looked at so many systems its just becoming a blur:eyecrazy:
i'd like to cover my driveway, and the perimeter of my garage, day and night. i'll need a system with a dvr and internet monitoring, so i can see whats going on even when i'm away.
from your past experiences with this stuff, what brands, how many gb, how many tvl, etc.
there are lots of 4 ch systems out there for anly a couple hundred bucks, are any of them any good?
thanks :)
 
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Speedy Petey

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Personally I don't use eBay like a shopping mall, although that's basically what it is these days.

I'd go to a real manufacturer or retailer and compare there.

I don't have any direct experience with these systems, but I do know folks that have, and I question the quality and reliability of a system like this for "only a couple hundred bucks".
 

Teken

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Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
8,214
Location
The Bad Lands
i have been looking on ebay for a 4 ch outdoor security camera systen for my place, i've looked at so many systems its just becoming a blur:eyecrazy:
i'd like to cover my driveway, and the perimeter of my garage, day and night. i'll need a system with a dvr and internet monitoring, so i can see whats going on even when i'm away.
from your past experiences with this stuff, what brands, how many gb, how many tvl, etc.
there are lots of 4 ch systems out there for anly a couple hundred bucks, are any of them any good?
thanks :)

1. Define your intent - This will dictate your over all budget.

2. Perform and complete a risk analysis and security audit of your premises. Camera's are great for capturing events after the fact. It does not prevent a person from damaging, harming, or breaching a persons property.

3. What is your expectation in terms of video quality? This will determine your over all budget and what can be captured.

4. Decide if you wish to stay with Analog cameras, or a IP based camera. Analog camera are at the present 700+ TVL and use RG59 cabling and requires power and ground to operate. IP camera's come in Analog and Digital form. Analog IP camera require power and ground as well. Some will allow you to power the camera using the Ethernet cable.

This is called POE *Power Over Ethernet*

In the recent past there was not set standard for POE in the video security field. So the power requirement could vary from maker to maker. So you can expect to see IP based POE camera's requiring 12 DC, 24 DC, 48 DC, 50+ DC

There are alos 24 VAC systems . . . With the advent of standardization the collective agreement standard is ONVIF.

This means that if you see the ONVIF logo it will conform and adhere to the minimum video security standards of video, networking, and power requirements.

If you see a statement of POE af this means it will use the standard 48 DC power. If you see it state POE at, this is a high power 54+ DC and is intended to power high power PTZ camera's *Pan-Tilt-Zoom*

The best thing about POE IP based (Ethernet) camera's is that it requires only one cable. This will reduce over all costs and fishing of wire. As power, video, and sometimes PTZ functions can be sent and received via one cable.

Sometimes audio is also sent via this method. This depends on the maker and some have separate RCA outputs in doing so.

5. Camera's: This is a very brief, yet NOT encompassing description of what you will see.

1A. Analog - They are cheap and can help the average guy capture almost anything at a Burger King budget. Don't waste your money on any camera that provides less than 550 TVL. 700 TVL camera's can be had for cheap these days and you have the choice of IR (Infra Red) which runs on the 850 nM wave length.

This means the red LED at night can be seen, and does attract bugs etc. But, does offer great night vision. Cheaper camera's do not use good optics and this is what you pay for besides the good lens.

You can not expect a camera that costs $49.00 to provide you with $1200 video capture. This isn't being realistic nor is it even remotely possible.

Many analog as well as other IP based camera's use mechanical filters to allow night vision. They do not use IR LEDS to see at night so there is no *Give Away* as to if a camera is on site, or working assuming its placement and size, type, style is well placed.

A typically the professionals shy away from all in one IR camera's are they often times give off artifacts which are hard to resolve.

Case in point the *Halo* effect, or the famous red eye, in this case the eyes and face would be white. There is always a *Hot Spot* when a IR camera is in use.

This is why many demanding users prefer to use IR sensitive camera's and install independent IR LED lighting. This avoids the bugs at the camera, allows a higher power IR source which can light up a larger area of view of the protected area.

It will also reduce the HALO, and saturation of the focus grounds.

You have several choices for camera's fixed lens, and vari-focal lens. The latter allows you to adjust the zoom and focus of the camera to suit your protected area.

READ THIS: You will get up on a ladder. You will look down and around from that ladder. You will document what you can see from that vantage point.

You will repeat this same process in the dead of night. With a flash light and with out. This will give you a real world view of what you will see. This also depends a lot upon the camera and it goes with out saying the quality of such.

So, unless you know what FOV *Field Of View* the protected area is required you have choices of fixed lens 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, etc. Most people opt for the varifocal because it allows them to narrow or broaden the field of view.

This is the area you can see from close to far, narrow to wide. I am very much generalizing at this point as this is not what it is. But, I am trying to drive a point here in laymens terms.

2B. IP MegaPixel camera's: Despite popular belief not all industries move forward quickly. You will see this in the security industry when it comes to digital IP mega pixel camera.

They are pretty much 15 years behind all other sectors. What does this mean to you??

Anything above 2 mega pixels will cost you a lot of cash. There are several makers who produce low dollar units. Try them, you never know what you may get, some are OK, some are alright, some are even incredible given the price point.

You will not see a 8, 10, 12 mega pixel camera priced at $100-200.00 as you would see for point and shoot camera. As I told you they are producing low volumes, low demand, and have no real reason to make it cheaper as its a pretty fixed market.

If you decide to go mega pixel (well worth the cost btw) it will allow you to see more detail. Remember that thing about expectation and what you wanted to protect??

This is what will drive your costs . . . :lol_hitti You want to see someones face?? That will costs you . . . You want to ID a license plate?? Yes, that will costs you . . .

IP mega Pixel camera's will give you that opportunity and remember. If this is only a hobby for you. Then, sometimes more is better.

ie. Buy a whole lot of cheap camera's and mount them ever where you want protection. Just keep in mind the reality is your video will be low, and wont provide any meaningful information to you. Besides I see an object, it looks red?

Is that Bob, or is that Fred?? :dunno:

In the digital area you normally see 720P and 1080P camera's. If it says 1098P most if not all camera's can me dumbed down to record at 720P.

6. DVR's: This leads to the different types of Digital Video Recorders. I will only hit some of the key points as it could take 15 pages to document what to look for etc, and the pro's and con's of each.

Remember that cost thing?? :bounce:

If you go analog for cameras then what you see on EBAY will cost very little. They do come in 4, 8, 12, 16, 24, 32 channel systems. Get more channels so you're not restricted in the future to grow your system.

They all have Internet capability, if you so happen to see one that does not have Ethernet capability then you're looking at 1980 tech being sold to morons. They all use hard drives to store your video, storage is cheap and you can normally save big by buying a DVR with out the hard drive.

One thing to keep in mind is that some DVR's will only allow so much expansion. So if it says you can only have 1TB of storage. Whether it be two 500 Gb drives etc. You want to see how many SATA connectors are present.

As you may not be able to record 99999999999999 years of stuff if it only has two HD (Hard Drive) plugs. Some systems will also state how large a drive can be. So if you say well Bobby Blue, I have two SATA plugs I will just hook up two 2-3 TB drives to this thing, so now I will have 4-6 TB of storage! :willy_nil

Wrong . . . The OS (Operating System) will dictate what the max storage a system can accept. The Linux OS kernal will accept only what it is designed to accept.

Remember that cost thing?? Yes, it keeps coming up . . . :shocking: :willy_nil

You want more recording time? It requires more space, space costs money, this is physical space, as well as OS space the system will allow.

Many people get away by placing the DVR into lower resolution modes. The trade off is either space, quality, or a combination of the two.

Almost all DVR's use a recording compression called H.264 . . .

This is important as the older standards which I wont name here as it takes way to long. Will allow you to record your image at high resolution, while allowing to stream, view, at low bandwidth.

Why is this important?? Well because if you intend to watch something that is 700 TVL, 720P, 1080P, and its at full res, it could take minutes to see that video.

If you have a low priced Internet, with bandwidth caps . . . This will cost you to view, stream, etc on your phone, at work, etc. Using H.264 video compression will allow you to view this video highly compressed. While NOT affecting the quality of the video.

Teken . . .
 
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Teken

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Now back to this video quality thing. Many DVR makers will confuse you by stating 1080P resolution.

Most of the 3rd tier (These are not 3rd tier makers Pelco, Panasonic, Sony, Bosch, Aviligon, etc) will tell you they will *Display* 1080P video.

Read this part: They display 1080P, they DO NOT record at 1080P, or even worse, they do not *stream 1080P.

All three are not inclusive . . . This means if you see a DVR that states in writing it can *Record, Stream, Display* at 1080P for under $400.00 please buy it! Unless it fell off a truck, or is being sold by Aunt Ethel who has not clue what she has.

You will NOT find a DVR that does this with out costing you more than $800+ USD

Having said all of this, many people don't require that level of recording resolution, as it requires that thing called space. Which costs money, which increases your budget.

Now, we haven't even gotten to the network based IP camera's. If you go with a IP based camera system (cost more) you will need a NVR (Network Video Recorder) or a Hybrid Video Recorder.

I am of the opinion that any future thinking person would spend the extra cash and purchase a Hybrid DVR. As this will allow you to migrate slowly based on your needs and budget to incorporate analog and IP based cameras. This will future proof your install and allow you to keep and use what you have.

This is an investment, it is not a toy, or a hobby. If its a toy, or a hobby then just get any system on the net. Nothing wrong with that, as some people want to dabble and try their hand in the tech, and in the field.

I am too old to live with *Its good enough* these days. As it has cost me thousands of dollars in the past. I am of the opinion that you should spend your money once, and spend it right.

So, today you may consider saving up and purchasing at least one good camera, and have several cheaper camera's for more coverage. Nothing wrong with this methodology, as it will allow you expand slowly with out breaking the bank, and be put in the dog house from your wife.

Now, with cheaper DVR's they can only give you so much access at a given time. The higher quality units will phrase that this DVR is a *Pentaplex System* this means you can watch, control, access, play / record, all at the same time.

Some will allow more than 5 people view a video stream. While others will only allow one at any given time. Others are iPhone / Android friendly. This means they have apps and settings to allow you to view the security video which is spec'd to be viewed over a hand held.

This cost money . . . H.264 compression is paramount in this area as it will eat up your cell phone data plan... See how that cost, and paying more up front will save you money in the end??

Don't cheap out in this area . . .

Now, lets get back to the problems or the potential problems with a DVR, NVR, Hybrid DVR system. All wires must be home run to the PC server / stand alone DVR.

This means you must protect this device at all costs. Many units will allow you to back up the video to USB storage, while others will allow you to FTP to a network drive, or cloud based storage. Some will allow you to burn a copy of the video data to disk.

In all cases the video box still needs to be protected. You must hide, secure, and protect this device at all times. It must also be protected against surges, spikes, and power outtages.

Buy a UPS, this will provide temporary power to the device while there is a power interruption. It will also ensure the OS will not get corrupted due to a abrupt shut down. It goes with out saying that if they find your little black box, your witness, proof, will be gone!

The biggest game changer in all of this is going away with the single point DVR system as it does not provide redundancy. Meaning the DVR breaks you have no video. The cable leading to the DVR is cut or broken, you have no video. Someone steals the DVR, that means no video.

A decentralized system uses a camera which has its own DHCP web server. That means all camera's act like a mini security DVR. If someone steals, breaks, or does anything to your DVR.

All of the video will still be there and present to give to the police. As the camera is recording, storing, streaming, the video right in the camera it self. This makes it a redundant and decentralized system.

The power, flexibility, and protection it offers can not be understated. This is something you, and others should keep in mind for future proofing.

Another big push into the video security market is using exiting RG59 coax cable to push true, uncompressed HD 1080P video. These DVR's and cameras must support HDSI.

It allows large companies, organizations, the ability to keep existing infrastructure while incorporating the latest tech in HD quality video. The only down side to this is the huge amount of space required. This is also a centralized system and if the DVR dies so does the video.

So, this goes with out saying: If you spend $350.00 for a DVR system. What do you expect this system to last? 1,2,5,10 years???

This is what you're paying for in the big leagues. Quality, support, known specs, and predictable performance.

Teken . . .
 
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Teken

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E-mail: Many of the off shore DVR's are using SMTP address's which can NOT be changed. Some of them I have seen are phrased as @DVR.

If you can not change this field and it is locked by the OS. Run, the only work around is to build, install, and deploy your own internal mail server to accept this idiotic SMTP address. You will then need to relay this data to your third party mail server.

Some hosts / ISP will not allow a residential user to relay off data. They consider this form of connection a business account. So, if caught you can be charged for doing so. Now, it can be done and is being done daily.

It is not within this scope to detail the how too's. I am simply stating to you what to look for. Now, if the e-mail is standardized and all fields can be populated then no worries. Most 3rd tier vendors have gone away from this **** storm so it may not be a problem.

But, note cheaper units its a gamble . . . The benefit of being e-mailed is the ability to see snap shots of the breach. This whole snap shot works in combination with the camera and DVR.

Many systems have over lapping features where one feature works better using the camera, or the DVR. This is what you're paying for when you spend more money. You will have the ability to target the protected area, you be able to set sensitivity, alarm trips, etc.

Most cheaper cameras do not have video analytics . . . Again, this costs money and if your tools, car, home, boat, dog means the world to you. Only you can decide to spend more to have these features.

Some cool features are the ability to know when something has been moved, some use pixel counters, some use image comparators, etc. Some systems will allow you to track a moving object, and let you know if someone is moving forward, backwards, or against the flow of traffic.

Many DVR / Cameras will allow you to have single or dual streaming. This will allow you to set one stream for recording, one for viewing. This all helps storage, and data streaming bandwidth.

Remember that thing called costs?? This will costs more, but will save you more down the road if you have caps. If you have no caps, this will give you the ability to control the streams so it doesn't affect your entire network..

Remember, just because you can stream at 1080P doesn't mean you can sustain it. My entire home is future proofed with CAT5e, CAT6, Fiber, and Coax with power. My entire network back bone is Gigabit.

All of the security network is on its own dedicated system. This means when I am watching netflix, or downloading a 1TB file, I am not waiting 9999999999 days to complete said task.

Now, this often comes up . . . Can I go wireless camera?? Sure, can you afford to spend more money? Can you afford to lose out on a crime that may be committed? Can you accept interference when the microwave is being used?

Can you accept that you need 120 VAC at all locations where this so called wireless camera will be?? I thought his thing was wireless?? :lol_hitti :willy_nil

The video is wireless . . . The device still requires power, so unless you have complete access and have no problem installing 4,6,12, 120 outlets, have fun.

See the benefit of Ethernet POE system . . . :dunno: One cable does it all! :beer:

Teken . . .
 

JakeKohl

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Feb 23, 2012
Messages
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Location
Greenville, SC
A friend of mine had a self-bought and installed system in his warehouse. His warehouse was recently broken into and about all the cameras were good for was to determine how many guys were involved in the operation. The resolution wasn't good enough to ID anyone...
 

Falcon67

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Merkel, TX
I would only add that if it's IP and labeled "PoE" then it should comply with 802.3af and it will be either one of the PoE basic grades or "PoE Plus". Any compliant 802.3af network switch should power the former (48v at some wattage 15.4 or below) and only special stuff or switching with additional power will do the latter. Or, use the power injector. If you don't want to buy a 802.3af compliant switch for IP cameras, then make sure the camera comes with an injector or that you add the cost of the injector(s) into the project.

A friend of mine had a self-bought and installed system in his warehouse. His warehouse was recently broken into and about all the cameras were good for was to determine how many guys were involved in the operation. The resolution wasn't good enough to ID anyone...

Yes - get HD cameras if it's for decent surveillance. If not, then get cheap or plastic dummies. Cheap cameras = don't expect to be able to ID anybody at more than 20' or so. Been there - some guy walked into a building and walked out with a DVD player. A review of the DVR record from the $600 non-HD camera system showed that some guy walked in, unhooked the DVD and walked out. Pretty sure it was a guy.
 
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Pixguy

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Feb 6, 2011
Messages
24
Location
RI NH
I've had a Samsung SSME2200 unit in with 8 of their IR cameras for 2 years now and the only issue I have is when I lose power for a long period of time, I have to reconfigure the IP. TimeWarn#% won't give me a static IP unless I pay commercial rates.

The best eBay dealer I've dealt with is ellipse-cctv by far.

Good luck
 

Cobra Jet

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Jan 25, 2007
Messages
384
Location
Southern NJ
I have the Samsung SDE-3000N (SDE-3000 is exactly the same setup as well).

Here's all the specs:
http://www.samsungsv.com/Model/Detail/7/Samsung-SDE-3000N-4-Channel-DVR-Security-System

The system has been up for 2yrs now, never an issue with the system, the viewing/monitoring of it (from home or away from home). Install was simple. I can view it while at home, or if away - can view it on any computer system (MAC or PC) and on my iPhone. Infared works excellent for night vision and day time viewing is very clear with full color. The system has weathered through the 4 Seasons outdoors, including the Hurricane we had 2 yrs ago here in NJ and 2 blizzards - all cameras stayed put, stayed connected and I did not lose any operational or viewing capabilities.

Each camera has night vision (30 infared LED's per camera), each has 600TVL high resolution with 50ft viewing distance during night. You can view all 4 cameras at once, or you can choose which single camera to view.

The DVR is 500GB, but can be upgraded for a total of 1TB of storage capacity. DVR has tons of features/options and when logged in as Admin, you can change nearly any setting even remotely. There are many monitoring features on the DVR. If you already have a Home Security System (one that is monitored), you can also hook your home security system into the DVR as well. It also has features so that you can set it up to email you images to whatever email address you provide or you can equip a chosen camera w/ sound (mic cabling is extra $).

You can purchase this system from a variety of vendors online, so if interested, be sure to research price before making final purchase, as it can vary greatly depending on who is selling the system.

The best pricing I have found for many types of electronics and survellience systems has been www.provantage.com. I'm sure there are other vendors out there with better pricing, but I've always found them to have the lowest when comparing to others (and my system was purchased through them).

This may not be THE system for some, but, for personal use or small business use - it definitely serves it's purpose and is one of the higher rated "box" systems available to the consumer. I would surely recommend it to anyone looking for a decent, high quality survellience system (if looking for 4 cameras).

One tip for any new survellience user - mount your DVR in a very good location that is hidden that only YOU know of it's location. You want it to be as far away as possible from the cameras and not in an obvious location. This way, in the event of a possible intrusion, the perp won't know where the DVR is located and cannot take it or damage it to rid it of the saved footage. Also, obviously, do the install correctly, neatly and hide any/all cabling out of sight. My system - you can't see any of the install, except for the 3 of the cameras on the exterior of my residence (4th is semi-hidden). Even with seeing the cameras, there's no evidence as to where the wiring for each runs to... :)
 
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