Educate me on OBDII - The need the differences....

[HCNDM]

Hi All,

Is it worth getting an OBDII scanner at home?

Recently I had an airbag light come on in my MK5 . Quick diagnostic at the garage in town and turned out to be the passenger side sensor error. Reset an go and a hundred bucks.

Around the same time my parents ford Mondeo kept losing power. Again readout and turned out to be the lambda sensor.

This got me thinking should I get an OBDII scanner? Quick Google tells me a brand new autel AL519 will set me back 130 euro and can read all errors and reset if necessary.

That's not too much imo. I also see the multiple threads on very expensive snap on scanners and even a harbor freight sale round the thousand dollars iirc.

Is it worth getting a chea push al519 for home use? What makes up the enormous 800 dollar difference to the models mentioned in threads on here?

Thanks guys for the advice!


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[amalik]

Can use a Bluetooth obdii adapter and a smartphone app, the whole setup for like $30 usd.


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[Ole Slewfoot]

I have a RossTech, but 90+% of the time I grab the $13 ELM bluetooth, and it's all I need.

 

[HCNDM]

Do the bluetooth versions allow code resets?


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[JonnyMac]

Just be aware that an airbag fault isnt related to obd codes.. some scanners will only read obd codes, you need one that gets more than just obd codes

 

[HCNDM]

The airbag fault was from disconnecting the passenger warning light when changing out the stock radio for a 2dinn pioneer gps. Apparently this triggers the warning which needs to be cleared.

Common problem on the VW mk 5 models and plenty of online help for it.

I was just googling and found out you need a Vcds vag-com system to read out all the VW codes.

Finding a Vcds unit seems to be more difficult. Seems only Ross tech does the software and it's pretty pricey.

I read the AL319 and upwards series do manufacturer proprietary codes but that doesn't tell me much.



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[HCNDM]

Anyone have experience with one of these:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...inexpensive-HANDHELD-VCDS-VAG-COM-replacement)


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[bdelmar2]

You may be getting a bit of a false impression.

To have codes give the actual bad part twice in a row is fairly rare.

More often the code or codes will give you hints about where to start investigating. Classic example is an oxygen sensor code. Seldom does an o2 code actually mean the o2 sensor is bad, the code is usually caused by another issue (vacuum leak?) that throws the o2 readings off.

Several times I've seen where someone has gone to Discount Auto or Auto Zone or whatever and had the counterperson scan their vehicle, buy the part indicated, replace it, and have the same issue. Then they still have to bring the vehicle to me to fix the actual problem - but they have now spent $***.** to replace a good part - sometimes more than one.

Still a code reader like you are thinking about is a reasonable investment providing you don't accept the information it gives you as gospel. Think of codes as a place to start testing.

I have both a code reader and a scanner. Generally the scanner gives more detailed info, and also the ability to graph data streams - even multiple steams side by side for comparison.

But, I would say the main difference is in the bi-directional control which allows one to operate various computer controlled outputs. Code readers will generally let you look at sensor data, but not control anything.

Quick example would be a non functioning cooling fan. With a scanner I can override (so to speak) the computer and turn the fans on, and adjust their speed. If I can in fact do that then I know the fans themselves work, and the relays, wiring, etc... on the output side are all good so I know to look on the input side.

You can check all this out without a scanner of course, but its going to take more time.

I have both a code reader and a scanner. I have not tried the Bluetooth setup so I can't comment on that.

Shop where I work has (actually I have it right now a Snap On Modis Ultra and its a pretty good scanner. Expensive to buy, and expensive to maintain.

I have an OTC Genisys evo scanner and its works pretty well, more bulky than the modis, not as user friendly, a little cheaper to buy and a lot cheaper to maintain - I should say update rather than maintain actually.

My code reader is an older Innova that will read both OBDI and II, and some vehicle specific info - up to a certain year anyway. Don't use it a lot, but works good for a quick look. I have had it hook up to vehicles neither scanner would also.


So the big difference is really speed of diagnosis.

There are some things you can do with a scanner you can't with a code reader - like bleed some anti-lock brakes, or relearn crank sensors or things of that nature but there are generally other methods to accomplish these.

 

[bdelmar2]

Ah, you are looking for VW specific units?

I've never tried the Innova on a VW, but I'm pretty sure it won't do well.

My OTC gives some VW stuff, but not a lot.

Modis is better with VW/Audi and has done everything we have needed it to so far, but we don't do a lot of VW/Audi or European cars in general - maybe about 5% of our work.

Although we have 2 BMW and a VW in the shop currently.


The link you posted looks like a decent unit for your application - I see it mentions being able to bleed antilock. Somewhat more complicated than the scanners but at least it can do it - in theory anyway.

 

[HCNDM]

Hi all


Thanks for the detailed advice. In the case of the lambda sensor it actually took quite bit of trouble shooting after the codes to find the cause. The code was an overly rich mixture.

Reading up on the snapon seems like a really nice tool. It would require a tool based income to warrant it though.

I think I'll order the xtool just for giggles because I already have a feeling it's gonna be a typical China tool. That said it is VW specific and cheap which is nice because the family car is a Jetta. At worst I'm out 40 euros and a giggle and reminder to stay away from made in China.

I am still interested in a decent obd code reader voor the standard mechanical stuff and the folks cars. The autel units seem to be pretty general purpose in that respect.

Thanks again so far for the great feedback!


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[MikeF2316]

I have a couple of very cheap Autel units, the ones that go on sale around here for $40, one in each car. That way I can read the codes right away. (I hate not knowing when something is wrong.) They will only do the OBD-II codes, they don't do ABS or airbag, but I'd say both have paid for themselves.

Fortunately for me, I have a friend with an auto repair business and one of the real fancy readers/scanners that does everything, and I have free access to it.

 

[FigureItOut]

More often the code or codes will give you hints about where to start investigating. Classic example is an oxygen sensor code. Seldom does an o2 code actually mean the o2 sensor is bad, the code is usually caused by another issue (vacuum leak?) that throws the o2 readings off.

Several times I've seen where someone has gone to Discount Auto or Auto Zone or whatever and had the counterperson scan their vehicle, buy the part indicated, replace it, and have the same issue. Then they still have to bring the vehicle to me to fix the actual problem - but they have now spent $***.** to replace a good part - sometimes more than one.

The parts store guys always seem to think that all you need to do is replace whatever sensor is giving bad info. It makes me wonder if they replace their fuel gauge every time it reads on E.


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[gdocktor3]

I was told by an employee at either Advance Auto or Auto Zone in my area, can't remember which, they no longer scan cars. I guess people were buying/replacing the recommended parts that weren't fixing the problem and it caused a lot of problems. Soon the other may follow suit. I am not a mechanic by trade, but bought a brand new Matco MD1400 from a seller on eBay for $65 to keep at home. It was burned in 2013 and will read cars up till then. So far it has worked on 4 vehicles ranging from 1998 - 2012. Here's the link if you're interested. It's new old stock. Not a fake or anthing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matco-Tools...:g:2awAAOSw5dNWjZgy&item=301948211702&vxp=mtr

 

[ShadowRuleZ]

For VW, I've seen people talking about this software lately:

https://obdeleven.com/

I've got to find one for mine, I used to have a RossTech VAG-COM but need somemthing newer.

 

[HCNDM]

For VW, I've seen people talking about this software lately:

https://obdeleven.com/

I've got to find one for mine, I used to have a RossTech VAG-COM but need somemthing newer.

This looks Nice! Except that i dont have Any Android devices.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, OBD-II (by law) ONLY APPLIES TO ENGINE TROUBLE CODES ! Yes, it is frequently used to communicate trouble codes from other sub-systems (transmission, anti-lock brakes, air bags, etc) but that IS NOT REQUIRED !

There are "standard" OBD-II codes and there are manufacturer/vehicle specific codes. If the subsystem is transmitting codes the same way engine controllers are, those codes MAY be displayed.

Early anti-lock brakes and air bags used a lot of unique (un-published) codes, meaning a lot of the scanners could not/would not read them. Things have gotten better over time, but there is still no guarantee that a scanner can read non-engine control codes.


One of the largest manufacturers of engine and transmission controllers, anti-lock and air bag module is Bosch. Bosch DOES sell a line of scanners under the Actron brand name.


(Hint: Almost ALL European based manufactures exclusively use Bosch module on all subsystems.)

 

[HCNDM]

First, OBD-II (by law) ONLY APPLIES TO ENGINE TROUBLE CODES ! Yes, it is frequently used to communicate trouble codes from other sub-systems (transmission, anti-lock brakes, air bags, etc) but that IS NOT REQUIRED !

There are "standard" OBD-II codes and there are manufacturer/vehicle specific codes. If the subsystem is transmitting codes the same way engine controllers are, those codes MAY be displayed.

Early anti-lock brakes and air bags used a lot of unique (un-published) codes, meaning a lot of the scanners could not/would not read them. Things have gotten better over time, but there is still no guarantee that a scanner can read non-engine control codes.


One of the largest manufacturers of engine and transmission controllers, anti-lock and air bag module is Bosch. Bosch DOES sell a line of scanners under the Actron brand name.


(Hint: Almost ALL European based manufactures exclusively use Bosch module on all subsystems.)

Excellent! Hint gotten!

 

[todd_fuller]

If you have a VW, VCDS is the bees knees. It's way more capable than an ordinary scanner. Many, many things in VAG cars have control modules that are programmable in some way. VCDS is more comparable to a manufacturer tool. It can also do the usual OBDII stuff if the other car supports the right protocols, usually Asian and European brands.

 

[Marcm157]

The parts store guys always seem to think that all you need to do is replace whatever sensor is giving bad info. It makes me wonder if they replace their fuel gauge every time it reads on E.

This is pretty damn funny! It's sad that most of the kids working at auto parts stores these days know little if anything about cars except maybe how to bolt on parts and make their rice rockets sound like my wind up toys when I was a kid...

 

[Gotcha640]

Regarding the vag com, the forum I used to read had a section for people willing to share. $10, or a 6 pack of nice beer, etc. I gave one guy tickets to a car show.

So, if you can swing the $300, and you're part of the local vw community, it could be a way to meet a lot of people.

 

[Ed ke6bnl]

For VW, I've seen people talking about this software lately:

https://obdeleven.com/

I've got to find one for mine, I used to have a RossTech VAG-COM but need somemthing newer.

does this program work with an ELM327 device? guess it does not make much difference because it is not good for my MKIV Jetta.

 

[HCNDM]

Hi guys!

Thanks for all the advice!

Had a good giggle about the parts store guys. Pretty sure the local parts store would replace the fuel gauge if it read empty. They do sell a lot of nice tools (all the German brands and facom) but I doubt anyone there has ever used a tool.

I have decided to get an autel al519. Amazon Germany has them for 60 bucks shipped which is less than half I'll pay locally. It will do all current 10 modes of standard OBDII and two years of free updates.

http://www.auteltech.com/Code Readers&Code Scanners/360.jhtml

http://scantoolcenter.com/obd2-scanners/autel-al519-color-screen-reviews/

I also will need to do some serious looking into a vag scanner. Probably spend a little more but get the right product first time round.




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[Ole Slewfoot]

FWIW, My ELM/Torque works fine on a 2011 TDI, just doesn't tell me voltage at the passenger window switch module and all that inane stuff.

 

[DemoFly]

At home, the only scanner that I think is worth money sub $400 USD is the Actron 9680 or 9690.

It reads OBDII, CAN, ABS and SRS. But what sets it apart is the ability to graph live data and report freeze frame data. Otherwise duplicating the condition that triggers the fault code is next to impossible, and you're just swapping parts hoping to fix a problem instead of using definitive data.

 

[theoldwizard1]

At home, the only scanner that I think is worth money sub $400 USD is the Actron 9680 or 9690.

The CP9690 only adds OBD-I capabilities, which was never used much. IMHO, not worth the extra cost.

 

[HCNDM]

Hi Guys,

I spent a lot of time reading up on the actron after theoldwizards1 first post about them. Certainly capable machines. And lots of Bosch input. That Said last updates end of 2013.

This model is really cool and has more functionality that the al519. It's also six times the price and not really updated past 2013.

https://actron.com/content/elite-autoscanner-kit-enhanced-obd-i-and-obd-ii-scan-tool

The al519 will do freeze frame and data graphing:


• Works on ALL 1996 and newer vehicles (OBDII & CAN) – domestic and import
•Features the unique patented One-Click Readiness Key for quick State •Emissions readiness check and drive cycle verification
•Bright color coded LEDs and built-in speaker provide both visual and audible tone for readiness verification
•Retrieves generic (P0, P2, P3 and U0), manufacturer specific (P1, P3 and U1) codes and pending codes
•Easily determines the cause of the Check Engine Light(MIL)
•Turns off Check Engine Light (MIL), clears codes and resets monitors
•Displays DTC definition on the TFT color screen
•Views freeze frame data
•Displays monitor and I/M readiness status (emissions)
•Reads live PCM datastream
•Displays live O2sensor test data
•Graphs data (1996 and newer vehicles)
•Reads, stores and playbacks live sensor data
•Enhanced OBDII Mode 6
•Troubleshooter code tips guide technicians to the root cause of a trouble code faster, saving diagnosis and repair time
•Retrieves vehicle information (VIN, CIN and CVN)
•Multilingual menu and DTC definitions – English, Spanish and French, etc.
•Internet upd•teable and upgradeable
•Prints data via PC


What is doesn't do is airbags and abs. Pity but at 60 bucks I'm not hung. Up on that. Like I mentioned I will need a fully vag compatible unit at some point.

It's important that at least my basic obd2 scanner is a handheld unit that can be kept in or near the car and takes its power from the canbus.

I won't always have my laptop available on long road trips and all smart devices have batteries to provide a weak link.

That vag system I am looking for can be outside those contraints.

Finally as I mentioned before it really is hobby for me. I don't have a garage at home (like the vast majority of people in the Netherlands) but only a small shed / shop. For all larger work on the car I drive it to my parents farm three hours alway where there's a full shop and soon a four post bridge.

On the vag side I am still very much undecided. I like the eleven Bluetooth solution but wonder how much functionality it has? I also need something iOS compatible or need to invest in android again. Seems the Ross-tech cabled laptop solution is powerful but also pricey. I'm in IT meaning I swap laptops more than once a year. I would have to get the expensive license to accommodate the regular swaps. Hoping to stumble upon something in the middle and will let you know if I do.

I did order an Xtools vag401 last night. I doubt it will do what I need it to but at 40 euros it will be a giggle and some experimentation fun. Not expecting anything can only mean being positively surprised. If it does turn out to be capable I'll let you all know. From what I've read it's mostly the user interface that drives people crazy. Again at 40 bucks you can't expect snapon quality.


EDIT: Amazon DE just shipped the AL519
EDIT2: Amazon DE just shipped the Xtools VAG401

Both software updater packages and latest firmware updates are downloaded and installed on my laptop. So as soon as the units arrive I'll start by bringing them up to the latest and greatest software version.

 

[DemoFly]

The CP9690 only adds OBD-I capabilities, which not much. IMHO, not worth the extra cost.

I agree. It's kind of a toss up.

Where I live, cars don't rust and at least a 1/3rd of the cars I get are still pre-OBD.

I got by for a looong time with the old Actron (can't remember model#) and MitchellOnDemand.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What is doesn't do is airbags and abs. Pity but at 60 bucks I'm not hung. Up on that.

The Autel AL619 DOES do airbags and ABS, but there is a big jump in price (more than 100% on Amazon).

Both software updater packages and latest firmware updates are downloaded and installed on my laptop. So as soon as the units arrive I'll start by bringing them up to the latest and greatest software version.

The thing I really am waiting to hear about is updated firmware.

Is this a "lifetime" update service ? If not, how much do new versions cost ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I got by for a looong time with the old Actron (can't remember model#) and MitchellOnDemand.

A good source of wiring diagrams and (especially older vehicles) vacuum diagram is a MUST to diagnosis most vehicles.

 

[HCNDM]

The Autel AL619 DOES do airbags and ABS, but there is a big jump in price (more than 100% on Amazon).


The thing I really am waiting to hear about is updated firmware.

Is this a "lifetime" update service ? If not, how much do new versions cost ?

The autel has guaranteed updates until 2019. Which means they will actively keep updating to a release cycle. That still doesn't tell me what will be included in the release cycle.

Look at Apple smartphones. iOS is updated every six months but there is no guarantee the functionality I want will be included. Most of the update is often bug fixes and cosmetics.

The xtools has lifetime updates but then it is a Chinese tool so i dont know what thats worth (I expect little).

Both have received regular updates over the last years from the number and dates of download files On their sites.

Either way: as someone working in IT I realize no computer or software package can be expected to last much more that fours years.

Some companies may proclaim longer support on their products but this comes at both cost and before long reduced capabilities when compared to newer models.

At some point the hardware will simply become too slow for newer software effectively stopping the option to keep it upgraded.

This is true for smartphones but also scanners. When it comes to hardware software I believe strongly in getting a product you can afford to replace after four years rather than getting something more expensive which may very well be outdated before you re-coup your investment.

Well worth noting the earn back time for me as a home user is significantly longer than for a pro earning his money with a tool.

At just over 100 euro out of pocket for two devices. These will cover my current (2006) car. As well as the next one (maybe two).

This is also the reason I got the cheaper AL519 now. I think the 619 is a little too expensive for the little added functionality.

But I expect new models to come out within the year and the old will drop in price. By spending a little less now I can swap and change more often if needed.

If I had to earn my money with these tools I would have gotten better and probably spent closer to 700 - 1000 on a single much better unit.

 

[HCNDM]

Well the first is in and updating

I read a lot of reviews from people that this was a nightmare on the xtool. I disagree. It's a standard firmware update similar to old era pcs but also modern modems routers switches and servers. Pretty straight forward.

Menu is straight forward and looks self explanatory.

Having a bbq just now so play in the car time till tomorrow.

Build quality is reasonable and sturdy. It's huge though. Must be 23 cm long. 15 inch laptop in pic for ref.

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[theoldwizard1]

Having a bbq just now so play in the car time till tomorrow.

Different parts of the US use that term differently. In some areas BBQ is what you are eating, usually slow roasted/smoke beef or pork. Various different cuts, from ribs to shoulders. Frequently a spicey dry rub is applied first and the sauce is also quite different by region (thin and vinegary to thick and sweet).

In some areas, BBQ just means a group of people eating outside. The main dish maybe just hamburgers or hot dogs but usually there are a lot of different side dishes to go along.

Have fun !!

 

[HCNDM]

My definition of a BBQ is definitely the first.

Spiced and marinated meats slow cooked. Add a good wine, IPA or a whisky and some friends!

I spent some time with the xtool and have to say I'm pleasantly surprised.

It will do all the obd2 stuff airbags and abs on my mk5 VW Jetta.

I also immediately reprogrammed the dash. It's now in English instead of German. This bothered me from the day we got the car but both the dealer and the local auto shop wanted quite a bit to change the setting. Really couldn't see the point I shelling out a hundred bucks to see fasten your seatbelt s instead of gurt anlegen. Like most Dutch people my German is passable.

Turns out it took about a minute to click through the menu and change a value from 0000001 to 0000002. And voila... Car is now an English speaker [emoji39]

I'm starting to understand the mediocre reviews of the device on Amazon though I don't think it's a fault of the device. The VAG programming is pretty old fashioned and not very user friendly.

People expect a fool proof user interface with quick selection menus. The code in the cars simply wasn't written to facilitate that on a reader / scanner.

Not a fault of the device but of the programming system and markup language. It does mean it's a little more research and reading work.

Alternatively to make a software layer for the average joe would push the scanner costs through the roof.

All the above said its not impossible to learn. The xtool has quick menus for most common maintenance tasks.

For everything else I have been referring to the Vcds website. The Xtools site is typically Chinese and useless.

That said its a reverse engineered Vcds scanner so anything that works on Vcds seems to work on the xtool. Vcds has a pretty good site And there's a lot of information on web forums on how to do things with Vcds.

Short recap: pleasantly surprised. It works better than expected and will suit my Volkswagen specific needs fine as a home user. Also at less than 50 dollars : euros... There's little else that can compete without a much higher price tag.

Now for the autel to arrive.... These things take forever to ship... I am hoping the autel with its color screen will be More of a day to day use tool.


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