Educate me on pipe heating cable for PVC

[dcg9381]

Well, I screwed up. It's cold down here in Texas, woke up and our water supply was offline. Took a look at the tank and I found that the pipe heating cable that I had attached to the outside PVC had done some damage overheating the PVC. I think the mistake I made was using the cable and then insulating both the pipe and cable.

PVC melted in a few spots, enough to deform it and create a massive water leak - we lost about 5,000 gallons of water (about 1/2 of our remaining water supply). I got it patched up "well enough" this am.. Still have a small leak, but we'll make it into warmer weather.




This is a photo of what I'm dealing with (when it was originally installed 4 years ago). I have 5 of these tanks...

 

[whitesco]

I've only used one camping in our old *** motorhome, but I didn't think those were supposed to get anywhere near hot enough to melt PVC. That's on a pretty flimsy grey/blackwater hose. But maybe I'm wrong, certainly not an expert. I've always done the same - heat tape under insulation.
I'm sure you'll get better advice but my first (admittedly janky) move might be to wrap the PVC in aluminum foil or similar first thinking the heat from the cable would then be a little more evenly dispersed.

 

[mcbane]

That looks like ChiCom knock-off non-self regulating tape. At least there wasn't a fire. With that kind of tape if the thermostat is in a cold place and the heat tape is under insulation it will put out max power forever, or until something fails. Consider replacing the tape with genuine Raychem self regulating tape.

 

[mike93lx]

That looks like ChiCom knock-off non-self regulating tape. At least there wasn't a fire. With that kind of tape if the thermostat is in a cold place and the heat tape is under insulation it will put out max power forever, or until something fails. Consider replacing the tape with genuine Raychem self regulating tape.

Everything vevor puts their name on is cheap Chinese junk. The equivalent of Dorman, probably worse.

I installed one from frost king in a buddy's house in December for a frozen condensate drain. didn't get hot enough to melt pvc. Definitely a failure in the device

 

[dcg9381]

That looks like ChiCom knock-off non-self regulating tape. At least there wasn't a fire. With that kind of tape if the thermostat is in a cold place and the heat tape is under insulation it will put out max power forever, or until something fails. Consider replacing the tape with genuine Raychem self regulating tape.

That might have been my mistake. The thermostat was not mounted inside of the pipe/insulation. It seems my mistake was adding this the heat tape inside the insulation, which was 1" foam all the way around.

I also need "outdoor rated" as these are "wet" areas. They are on a GFCI.

I've removed the insulation, and things seem to be fine for now.

 

[whitesco]

Well if nothing else I'd not seen that site before and looks like there's a lot in common with old motorhomes. So down another rabbit hole I go

 

[jrsavoie]

Can you build a little pump house around it?

I have a refrigerator with a small thermostat controlled electric heater.

Works pretty good

 

[dcg9381]

Can you build a little pump house around it?

If you look at my photo, it's already got a pump hose that contains all primary / backup water pump, UV sterilization, and water filters. It's on a thermostat inside with a radiator heater.

I could possible "enclose" those exposed pipes (somewhat), but the issue is that there is no slope on the concrete, so I'm going to get water in whatever box I build around it.

 

[Youngandfree]

If you look at my photo, it's already got a pump hose that contains all primary / backup water pump, UV sterilization, and water filters. It's on a thermostat inside with a radiator heater.

I could possible "enclose" those exposed pipes (somewhat), but the issue is that there is no slope on the concrete, so I'm going to get water in whatever box I build around it.

Why didn't you slope your shed roof away from the middle of your pad?

 

[PoorUB]

Well, I screwed up. It's cold down here in Texas, woke up and our water supply was offline. Took a look at the tank and I found that the pipe heating cable that I had attached to the outside PVC had done some damage overheating the PVC. I think the mistake I made was using the cable and then insulating both the pipe and cable.

PVC melted in a few spots, enough to deform it and create a massive water leak - we lost about 5,000 gallons of water (about 1/2 of our remaining water supply). I got it patched up "well enough" this am.. Still have a small leak, but we'll make it into warmer weather.

Look for self regulating heat tape. I used to sell some that you just connected a plug in to it and it can be left on all year around. I would avoid the tape that requires a thermostat.

 

[58Yeoman]

I've got heat tape on my water lines in the shop, as it's not heated all the time. After I installed the heat tape on my pvc lines, I wrapped them all well with Frost King insulation that comes in a roll for just that purpose. I haven't had any problems since I installed it all a couple/few years ago.

 

[bluedog225]

Glad it wasn’t worse. A little carpentry and a 100 watt light bulb would take care of the issue.

That’s a big investment in water tanks. Tank Depot? I’m looking for my place in smithville.

 

[dcg9381]

That’s a big investment in water tanks. Tank Depot? I’m looking for my place in smithville.

Local supplier / dealer. They are Poly-Mart, now bought out by a company called Bushman. They are made (as I understand it) in Texas. No problems with the tanks, but when they switched ownership it was a little challenging to get them to provide the vents and correct outlets for the tanks as specified... I think Tank Depot sells the same thing. Happy to send you the number of my local supplier (he's just on the retail side) - dunno if he'll do Smithville. These were delivered to site. Less expensive if you can pick up and haul them in yourself. Takes about 3 people to get one to stand up.

I have 5 of these tanks, so yea, substantial investment. DIY, I'm still "under" what it costs for a well locally and the water quality is much much better.

 

[dcg9381]

Why didn't you slope your shed roof away from the middle of your pad?

Yea, I don't have a good answer for that, I could capture the run off on that side, but the tank still produces a fair amount of water to the pad.


I've purchased self-regulating tape this time. On the fence in terms of adding back the substantial insulation that I had on there before.

 

[Sumboodie]

What fills the tanks?

It's common to have tanks in many places here. For fresh water and the *******.
They get filled and emptied by water and sewage trucks.

BUT the tanks are in heated buildings.

 

[dcg9381]

What fills the tanks?

Rain.
I have a substantial system of gutters and "first flush" diverters (see photo below).
The shop has over 3600 sqft of roof area. House has another 1500 sqft (partial collection).

Right now, for every inch of rain we get, I collect about 2,600 gallons of water.

Putting 25,000 gallons of water in a building is space that I don't want to use up. The other obvious option is to bury them or build cisterns... Ground here is so hard that digging like that requires a ram, so it's not cost effective to put them in the ground.

The "average" well cost here is now around $20k. And I've been tracking the water tables for years, they are under substantial decline. And the water that comes out of the ground is exceptionally hard - it'd ruin our tankless heaters and fixtures long term (even with a big softener system).

I think we got about 4 days of temperatures this year where I had to go out and make adjustments to this system, so it's not "typically" labor intensive in Texas.


This is a first flush diverter, it drops the first X gallons of water that comes off the roof (bird ****, pollen, etc):

 

[Sumboodie]

Rain.
I have a substantial system of gutters and "first flush" diverters (see photo below).
The shop has over 3600 sqft of roof area. House has another 1500 sqft (partial collection).

Right now, for every inch of rain we get, I collect about 2,600 gallons of water.

Putting 25,000 gallons of water in a building is space that I don't want to use up. The other obvious option is to bury them or build cisterns... Ground here is so hard that digging like that requires a ram, so it's not cost effective to put them in the ground.

The "average" well cost here is now around $20k. And I've been tracking the water tables for years, they are under substantial decline. And the water that comes out of the ground is exceptionally hard - it'd ruin our tankless heaters and fixtures long term (even with a big softener system).

I think we got about 4 days of temperatures this year where I had to go out and make adjustments to this system, so it's not "typically" labor intensive in Texas.

I guess... if it works.

Those tanks, plumbing, filters, constant testing, etc and your time was significantly less than 20k?
I'd be very hesitant on drinking rain water.

As far as freezing, if it's only a day or three a year, I'd wrap it in insulation and call it good.

 

[Dagny]

mcbane gott it the raychem is top notch.

 

[dfiler2]

For pvc we always use low voltage cable but it is important to insulate when using this but it won't damage the water line. i have used similar on pex water lines and pvc drain lines.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0982N56XH/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[snyder]

Would a small recirculation pump be a better option when it gets to freezing?

 

[backupbeeper]

I guess... if it works.

Those tanks, plumbing, filters, constant testing, etc and your time was significantly less than 20k?
I'd be very hesitant on drinking rain water.

As far as freezing, if it's only a day or three a year, I'd wrap it in insulation and call it good.

I guess he runs it through a reverse osmosis filter for the drinking water ?

I’d say rainwater is as clean as spring water .

And a lot better than a many cities municipal water .
From Flint Michigan to Jackson Mississippi ,
Cities have demonstrated that they are totally incompetent to even operate a water treatment facility.

 

[dcg9381]

Would a small recirculation pump be a better option when it gets to freezing?

For sure. But I have 5 tanks. I already "recirculate" from the primary tank and that absolutely solves the problem (as well as keeps the shop plumbing working). I cannot circulate from all 5.

Those tanks, plumbing, filters, constant testing, etc and your time was significantly less than 20k?
I'd be very hesitant on drinking rain water.

Tanks, concrete pads, assuming my time is "free" (it's not). Less than 20k.
Understand that in 2021 the vast majority of my neighbors wells "blew up" too (due to freeze) - with no PVC for a month, people were without power for a month. It'd be way easier to freeze proof a well, but I'm getting close.

If I had to do it again (in Texas), I'd do it the same way. The well water here is off the scale hard and it's difficult for a number of reasons. If I was up north, I'd to this with a cistern (assuming cost to dig was reasonable). Here we're on rock. Digging is $$$.

As far as freezing, if it's only a day or three a year, I'd wrap it in insulation and call it good.

2021 was 5-7 days below 20 degrees and no available power. I have fixed the power situation. That won't be a problem again.

I guess he runs it through a reverse osmosis filter for the drinking water ?

I do, but it's totally drinkable after a sediment filter and single stage UV. I'm just "careful".

I’d say rainwater is as clean as spring water .

I've had it lab tested by Stephens ecology, it tests much cleaner than local well water. No clorine or floride like city water.



The new solution is deploying heat strips on all pipes and instead of covering them in insulation, covering them in a light breathable material (largely to protect from UV). I'll report back this winter if I get it right.

 

[Rusted Nut]

I have installed heat trace tape on plastic fire sprinkler lines, but it’s a special type of plastic ( I don’t recall specifics) and the heat trace is thermostatically controlled.

 

[Monza Harry]

I'd suggest if your tank to pump house is say 1" poly, could you place your heat tape on the pipe (with thermostat if req'd) enclosed in say 4" ABS then insulate the 4" ABS? The air space [open the 4" into the pump house (you mentioned it is heated correct[?]) for/as extra heat and venting(?)] You could adjust sizes as required.
Harry

 

[rharman]

What about a housing/tunnel connected to your shed that would enclose that pipe?
Heat from the shed would help keep the pipe warm.

 

[BruceMc]

BUT the tanks are in heated buildings.

Here in the interior it's pretty common to foam the entire tank, with either heat tape on the bottom or use a stock tank heater inside.

 

[JCiccarone]

Find any successful solutions since you posted this? I'm looking for a heat trace/cable product for an open-bottom utility sink in the garage... Gets well below freezing here in New England. Need to insulate the hot/cold, but also the PVC drain line and P-trap

It seems there's a huge difference between "constant-wattage" products and "self-regulating" ones. Looking at a self-regulating heat trace product, but it's also from VEVOR... different from their constant-wattage product line, which looks to be what overheated on the OP.

I would go Raychem, which I've installed at work plenty of times, but it seems overkill for approx. 10 feet of piping in a residential garage.

 

[fourjeepin]

I put a freeze switch and a 60watt bulb under the sink in my outdoor kitchen.

 

[jrsavoie]

I put a freeze switch and a 60watt bulb under the sink in my outdoor kitchen.

I've done that. I also have installed a plug in thermostat and plugged heaters into that.