Electicians, do you guys ever do work while the circuits live?

[zhaddock]

While watching guys hired by our company. I have seen several electricians install outlets, switches and plugs on 120 circuits while the circuit was hot. Is that common? I dont have the desire to try that myself but I was wandering how common that is.

 

[kd3pc]

I would say it is not un-common to work things hot....in some instances, it is just easier and much quicker than hunting the guy with the key to the room where the panel is and to secure it, etc, etc. I have done it often enough, but usually do all the down stream work, before making the last splice that would be "hot" and thus energize the new gear.

I have also just knocked the hot to gnd and kicked the breaker, to avoid a days worth of "finding" the breaker to shut it off..

That being said, you still have to have respect for the theory and the fact that it can kill you.

A lot of high voltage is done hot, but you are only on one phase and are protected or isolated from the apparent risks - or you become part of the circuit.

 

[rockwithjason]

happens all the time. like anything else it is not without risk, but you don't have to be risky.

 

[Norcal]

There is a saying: There are old electricians, there are bold electricians, but there are no old bold electricians. That being said, hot work is done all the time.

 

[Super Mech]

I personally have changed out many an outlet and switch while the circuit is hot. My father did it that way and that's how I learned.

 

[Rogue1987]

If I can work cold I prefer to, but sometimes it's necessary to do work while equiptment is hot.

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[Stuart in MN]

I rarely see it done. In most cases, particularly if they are just dealing with outlets there should be no reason at all to do it. More people are electrocuted on 120vac than anything else.

 

[RivennHewn]

I can say none of my tools have arc marks, just not with a straight face.

 

[Astro-t]

I try to shut off everything I work on. Its just about being safe and smarter....

 

[jd_1138]

I was assisting the neighbor in wiring up some lights in his shop. I went to go shut off the juice at the panel 10 feet away, and he said "don't bother". But I did anyway. Not going to put my life in his hands.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Outlets and fixtures... mostly hot. Breaker panels and control centers... usually not. Use the "One hand in the pocket" rule unless I need to brace something, but that's even with the power out.

I think I've arced wires once or twice, bit by 120 a couple times... but the rude awakener was when I got bit by European 230 v 50 Hz putting in a ceiling lamp fixture - I will NEVER forget that one. Hurt like an SOB and got me really careful really fast (after a trip to replace the fixture that had somehow hit the wall across the room... ) Totally different feel than getting bit by 120.

Friend got launched off the top of a 24 foot ladder when the 277 fluorescent fixture he was relamping bit him (sloppy, lazy installation work originally). Fun times... he was a little shaky after that one.

 

[Aceman]

Of the very limited hot work I do, I think most of it is installing bolt on breakers in live panels. No way I'm installing a big feeder breaker into a switchboard hot though, that gets a shutdown. That's really the extent of it. I don't really consider stabbing a regular breaker into a loadcenter live work. I'm sure OSHA would disagree though...

I also can't think of a single reason to work switches and receps hot. I own a high end Amprobe circuit tracer/breaker finder. So there is no excuse for not being able to shut the proper breaker off. If the circuit has important equipment on it, then I'll schedule a time for them to shut it down to perform my work or tie something in.

 

[youwish2bme]

One hand rule even when I know it's dead... 30mA can kill you. Not to say I haven't work on a hot circuit but I would prefer not to...

Hitch

 

[theoldwizard1]

I worked for one of the Detroit 3. I was responsible for some "mini" computers (back then a mini was the size of 3 or 4 god sized refrigerators). We need some more outlets under the floor but the panel was full so the plan was to add another panel.

On Friday afternoon, the building maintenance supervisor say "You need to shut down by Saturday 8 AM". "No way, with this short notice."

Well, they added the new panel Saturday anyway, and I swear the incoming power cables were at least 000 !

 

[jd_1138]

Of the very limited hot work I do, I think most of it is installing bolt on breakers in live panels. No way I'm installing a big feeder breaker into a switchboard hot though, that gets a shutdown. That's really the extent of it. I don't really consider stabbing a regular breaker into a loadcenter live work. I'm sure OSHA would disagree though...

I also can't think of a single reason to work switches and receps hot. I own a high end Amprobe circuit tracer/breaker finder. So there is no excuse for not being able to shut the proper breaker off. If the circuit has important equipment on it, then I'll schedule a time for them to shut it down to perform my work or tie something in.

I think it's a machismo/lazy thing to work on hot switches and outlets.

 

[Mustang51js]

Pretty much everything I work on is live,I do shut power off once in a while but most of it is hot,especially trouble shooting

 

[wyliesdiesels]

For most panel work its hot, troubleshooting is hot, plugs and switches almost always cold.

I have a good set of insulated tools so i dont have issues with arcing or shorting...

When i do work on 480v, though it gets shut down, lock out tag out, no questions about it.

.....I own a high end Amprobe circuit tracer/breaker finder.....

What model amprobe do u have?

Ive been looking for a good one myself...

 

[Jlarson]

In any legit industrial facility you'll get run off for doing hot work. Same with any large contractor that has to maintain a good saftey record to bid work.

Smaller outfits and plants with questionable saftey enforcement are all over the map.

 

[SLYDIT]

guy went to change some flouro tubes while they were live and i said he should turn the power off. he said it'd be ok, so while standing on the ladder he twisted the tube and the endcaps disintegrated and there was a short and huge bang which kicked him off the ladder and on his **** on the ground. lucky he didnt fall on his head.

 

[Aceman]

What model amprobe do u have?

Ive been looking for a good one myself...

Amprobe AT-2005

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U2F5C5G/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[alfredeneuman]

There's no reason, except for troubleshooting, that a residential branch circuit can't be shut down.
That's just laziness or bravado.

 

[jdieter]

An industrial electrician for 30 years and we almost never worked anything hot, except for troubleshooting. Was a residential and commercial electrician before that and it was fairly common for a variety of reasons, in those cases always made sure I was isolated from anything connected ground or another phase. As a retired guy around home I occasionally work simple connections hot more out of laziness for the extra trips to the panel. In any case it's all about common sense, experience, respect and knowledge if you working anything hot, even an automobile...ever seen a exploded battery or a fuel ignite from an arc?

 

[frankush]

If you've ever worked in a hospital, you'd know it takes an act of god to shut down anything. So, you work it hot unless you can wait for someone to approve the shutdown. That could take a day or two and is generally frowned upon. Most hospital shutdowns occur during 3rd shift hours and nobody wants to pay for the OT or shift pay. With that said, my safety is my first concern and if I'm not comfortable working something hot, I'll take the heat for not doing so.

 

[Mr. T]

I'm only maintenance instead of an electrician but no. Too much risk for something you can so easily prevent in my situation.

I also don't really count troubleshooting in that statement, just making connections.

 

[kd3pc]

If you've ever worked in a hospital, you'd know it takes an act of god to shut down anything. So, you work it hot unless you can wait for someone to approve the shutdown. That could take a day or two and is generally frowned upon. Most hospital shutdowns occur during 3rd shift hours and nobody wants to pay for the OT or shift pay. With that said, my safety is my first concern and if I'm not comfortable working something hot, I'll take the heat for not doing so.

same thing with phone/data centers and other 24/7 or high availability operations.

it is done, can be done...

 

[rodsnratfinks]

When did residential, I had to do it a lot, if for no other reason than client wanted to leave everything on. When I worked commercial and new construction residential, almost never.

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[Zeke]

When did residential, I had to do it a lot, if for no other reason than client wanted to leave everything on. When I worked commercial and new construction residential, almost never.

I don't think I'd let a customer dictate to me how work should be done.

I'm only maintenance instead of an electrician but no. Too much risk for something you can so easily prevent in my situation.

I also don't really count troubleshooting in that statement, just making connections.

That would be my way as well. I hit the buss in a panel once with a pair of needle nose. Yes, they were insulated and not nicked at the time. The arc took a chunk out of the side and flashed me good. And I wasn't wearing safety glasses either. This was about 1979. I remember like it was yesterday.

 

[ripperd]

I do occasionally at home. But wear rubber gloves and are very, very meticulous in my movements. I also wire-nut the hots as soon as they are pulled off. Then do the rest, and finally un-wirenut the hots and screw them down and put the switch/outlet back in.

I am not an electrician, just a handy homeowner.

 

[Mr. T]

I do occasionally at home.

Honestly, I do at work more than at home . And I almost never do at work. It's sooooooo easy to turn off the breaker at home and I don't even have to worry about locking it out for the curious coworker.

So that is to say, I never; ever, work hot at home. I value my life more than my ego. While I believe I have the skill to do so, I refuse to bet my life on it.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

My guys all know better than to not use LOTO and/or applicable PPE for any electrical work we do. That being said, replacing lighting ballasts on fixtures that have quick connects or wire nuts on the feeds is probably done frequently. I just haven't caught it being done.

Tommy

 

[bry@n]

I've swapped out rectifiers while the power was hot because the customer didn't want to shut down. I was much younger and wouldn't do that today.

Outlets, yeah, but not much more than that.

 

[Falcon67]

I've done it here at work, only because the building was built in 1947, has some really gommed up electrical and who knows where the breaker might be. Just switches, typically. No big deal with gloves and care. We have fished some MC cable for things in our offices and for that we go find a breaker. Maintenance would likely call a contractor, which means we'd never get it done.

 

[Rm2728]

Always prefer to be off, but have no reservations about doing it hot. 110v, 220v. Just make sure you know what the status is and triple check to make sure if you think it's off that it is off and vice versa. I always keep the hots capped as long as possible and never exposed for very long.

 

[MBfreak]

Working on live equipment ( at 50 VAC and up) has been prohibited by several very large electrical equipment manufacturers. ( ie ABB, some 100thousand employees) The ban also goes for all contractors working for these companies.

I think this is a very sound dictate , and each and everyone should follow it. Regardless if you are a homeowner changing an outlet, an industrial service technician or utility/power station person at a plant with service or troubleshooting.

The argument " impossible to switch off" is just total silliness and shows a disturbing lack of knowledge and/or initiative and zero planning ability.

I have worked in the power industry my whole life ( 69 yo now) and seen about 10 serious burns/fatalities. Horrible.

Most were caused by poor preparations, two by sheer stupidity and one was possibly a suicide.

Best regards
Ola

 

[walrus]

I work on live circuits all the time, how else would you trouble shoot? I prefer not to when making connections and almost always will kill circuits.

Having customers dictate what you is par for the course if I shut down every gas station I work in, I wouldn't have any work

 

[rodsnratfinks]

I don't think I'd let a customer dictate to me how work should be done.

I didn't. My boss did. He was a peach.

Like bry@n said, I was younger then.

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[Slowgsr]

I shut things off because it's faster.

I change 347v ballast all the time live, and every so often I tie into a 600v splitter without shutting it off. I work, pull in/through 600v switchgear all the time, but keep a safe distance from the busses, Ill bolt in 600v switches/breakers to a live bus.

Im very careful, there's no room to slip, even if I did I would be sure that there would be no I'll effects, if I'm that close I shut it off or find another way.

I really dislike working in 347/600v live junction boxes, especially troubleshooting since in that case it's not my work , since I wouldn't be troubleshooting my own work.

With all that being said, my guys don't work live. Ever. I did recently change the panel in my residence live. My father in law who is also an electrician had his best friend killed from a shock while working in a confined space - **** is real.

 

[gtcs]

I have, I can, I try not to.
There are times when its inconvenient... get off your *** and turn it off
There are times when its difficult (hospitals, data centers)... do the best you can, be careful
There are times when its idiots (plant managers, customers, etc don't want to be bothered) ...tell them to do it

 

[landyacht]

I remember working with a newer apprentice and he was installing assorted plugs in a house that someone had turned on all the breakers. I offered to help him shut off the live ccts and he said "no I've got to learn how to do it live eventually". For about a half hour, like clockwork every 5 minutes or so I'd hear "Ah f@<k!" as he got shocked again, and again, and again... Not sure he was the brightest guy to begin with, but I'm sure it didn't help. Finally I insisted on him killing the circuits as I couldn't take it anymore.
The next day we were tieing in on a rough wire and he was convinced he kept getting shocks even though the poco hadn't connected yet

 

[1/2 Cup]

We do not work live out here, period once it was the norm.

The are times when you need to test stuff live but there are pretty strict rules and regulations in place now.
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Legislation-Regulations

Regards