Just wondering any thoughts on electric boilers? Have 30 x 40 garage, 1800 ft 1/2 inch pex over 2 inch foam board. Electric only options. Haven't done any heat loss calcs. Mayby storage hot water tank???. Planning on keeping building around 55 f in winter.
Electric Boiler for Hydronics ??
- Thread starter dldude
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Rookie2
Well-known member
Insulate slab /footer outside perimeter, insulate,insulate,insulate !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
What he said ! Spend as much as you can on insulation !!
dfiler2
Well-known member
I don't think you'll need the storage tanks, you have a huge heat sink in the slab. Around here the POCO has a plan where the boiler only runs at night during their lowest consumption periods and you pay .05/KWH. You might want to check to see what's available.
Rookie2
Well-known member
I would choose NG if it were available !
Ohmthis
Well-known member
Why electric options only? With that thought you're leaving a lot on the table. How much is electric in your area? I don't have natural gas, electric is not bad here compared to others, but it is still cheaper to use propane as my back up heat. I use about $600 of propane a winter, there were people here last year that had that as one month of electric. Just look at ALL the options.
gregtwojeeps
Well-known member
Anyone here old enough to remember the "oil / energy crisis " of the 70's ? During that time span, the natural gas companies in my state stopped all new gas hook ups to the new homes being built...
That is back when electric furnaces, ceiling cable radiant heat, and finally heat pumps were the only heat source for any new home built. ( excluding propane tanks, wood or coal/oil burners ) Thankfully, we finally got natural gas services again.
That is back when electric furnaces, ceiling cable radiant heat, and finally heat pumps were the only heat source for any new home built. ( excluding propane tanks, wood or coal/oil burners ) Thankfully, we finally got natural gas services again.
OP . . . . you really NEED to provide a Location if you expect to get best advice.
Update GJ Profile with City / State / Country or some sort of Location.
With drastically dropping price of Solar Panels, you might consider them to heat up water in normal electric HWH, but heating elements changed out to DC power. Then circulate that hot water through radiant floor.
Also, direct Solar heating of glycol in panels up on roof could be pumped through your radiant heat in floor.
Good luck as electric only will be costly. Have you considered Propane ??
Update GJ Profile with City / State / Country or some sort of Location.
With drastically dropping price of Solar Panels, you might consider them to heat up water in normal electric HWH, but heating elements changed out to DC power. Then circulate that hot water through radiant floor.
Also, direct Solar heating of glycol in panels up on roof could be pumped through your radiant heat in floor.
Good luck as electric only will be costly. Have you considered Propane ??
deckmonkey
Active member
I've done a few electric boilers, the big problem is the power needed. I think they needed two 60-100 amp breakers. The owner was happy enough with them to install one in his house as well for baseboard rads. An electric hwt might work, the elements are about 15,000 btuh and if you crank up the temp and mix it down with the return water you will have a lot of storage.
As said before, propane is probably the way to go if you can't get natural gas.
I was hoping to do the solar panel/dc element route in my garage and dump the excess power into the grid in the summer. The solar guy told me I would have to oversize it because I need the most energy when we have the least sun. The cost to do it legally outweighs my laziness to dig a trench for a gas line. I still might try some hillbilly experiment though.
As said before, propane is probably the way to go if you can't get natural gas.
I was hoping to do the solar panel/dc element route in my garage and dump the excess power into the grid in the summer. The solar guy told me I would have to oversize it because I need the most energy when we have the least sun. The cost to do it legally outweighs my laziness to dig a trench for a gas line. I still might try some hillbilly experiment though.
ltusler
Well-known member
Check to see if your utility has a off peak power program. I keep my floor at 60. Also be sure to power up the floor before the season begins and its already at close to your desired temp. That way it maintains the heat already in the mass rather than having to heat it from dead cold.
djjsr
Well-known member
Why heat water to heat concrete to heat air? Why not just use an electric heater to heat the air?
dfiler2
Well-known member
Plenty of reasons not to use an electric heater to heat the air. Here's just a couple.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/underloor-radiant-heating/
djjsr
Well-known member
From the above link ...........
TLC points out that while radiant heat is definitely more efficient in smaller, snug homes with lower roofs, it might not always be the greenest solution in homes with bigger rooms: “In some scenarios it can be less energy efficient than forced-air heating.” TLC recommends consulting with a reputable heating contractor to see if radiant heating is a sensible way to go.
TLC points out that while radiant heat is definitely more efficient in smaller, snug homes with lower roofs, it might not always be the greenest solution in homes with bigger rooms: “In some scenarios it can be less energy efficient than forced-air heating.” TLC recommends consulting with a reputable heating contractor to see if radiant heating is a sensible way to go.
James-W
Well-known member
If the heat is going to be turned up while working on projects, then heating the air may be a better option.
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
He is building a 30'x40' garage in Northern Ohio. He would have to read the electric meter with a timing light.
Highbeam
Well-known member
Electric boilers are common and practical in locations with cheap power. They offer several advantages too. In my area, power is the same price per btu as propane and NG is not available so my radiant system will be powered by an electrical boiler. The eboiler has no exhaust, no flame, no maintenance, and power needs are not that high for the smaller boilers. I provided a 50 amp circuit using regular #8 copper in conduit which will power a 10,000 watt boiler for well over 34,000 btu to the floor.
The eboiler mounts to the wall and takes up no floor space. It can short cycle with no hit to the 100% efficiency. Oh, and they are cheap too.
Some folks just aren't used to cheap electricity and can't imagine a world where it is cheaper to heat with electricity compared to fossil fuel. Also, oil prices rise and fall but electric rates are far more regulated. You already have an endless supply piped to the house, why not use it?
The eboiler mounts to the wall and takes up no floor space. It can short cycle with no hit to the 100% efficiency. Oh, and they are cheap too.
Some folks just aren't used to cheap electricity and can't imagine a world where it is cheaper to heat with electricity compared to fossil fuel. Also, oil prices rise and fall but electric rates are far more regulated. You already have an endless supply piped to the house, why not use it?
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
Holy mackerel!
First a proper heat load. It will show that no storage electric water heater will work. Tankless electric water heaters will work but they lack the controls of purpose-built electric boiler. We use Thermolec and Electro.
People use hydronic radiant floor heating because it is more comfortable than anything else.
Northern Ohio is not that cold. Outdoor design is 5°F.
A mini-split heat pump is the most "efficient" way to convert electricity to heat, but it still isn't radiant floor.
My 10 electric boiler uses two 60 amp breakers.
Hydro-solar space heating in cold climates will not be an option for space heating for many years to come. The notable exception would be Net Zero or Passive House designs; probably not what you had in mind.
You can see the picture at the bottom of this webpage depicting a rough-in of a shared garage with one owner going for radiant heat--the smart one-and the other in an unheated garage.
http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/hrf.html
First a proper heat load. It will show that no storage electric water heater will work. Tankless electric water heaters will work but they lack the controls of purpose-built electric boiler. We use Thermolec and Electro.
People use hydronic radiant floor heating because it is more comfortable than anything else.
Northern Ohio is not that cold. Outdoor design is 5°F.
A mini-split heat pump is the most "efficient" way to convert electricity to heat, but it still isn't radiant floor.
My 10 electric boiler uses two 60 amp breakers.
Hydro-solar space heating in cold climates will not be an option for space heating for many years to come. The notable exception would be Net Zero or Passive House designs; probably not what you had in mind.
You can see the picture at the bottom of this webpage depicting a rough-in of a shared garage with one owner going for radiant heat--the smart one-and the other in an unheated garage.
http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/hrf.html
ltusler
Well-known member
As an example, here in Minneapolis, I fired up my in floor electric to 60 degrees at the beginning of October. Now nearing the end of November, its used 316 kWh at .049 per kWh for a total of $15.48. Granted we've had a pretty warm fall. But the off peak/dual fuel rate is hard to beat.
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
It is all about the local fuel market. If you were not on Minnesota valley you would likely pay upwards of .11 cents and be much happier with a condensing propane boiler.
tdkkart
Well-known member
Because heating the air is not what radiant is all about.
If you'd ever lived or worked in a radiant heated space you'd know the difference, and know how comfortable radiant is.
I heat my shop with radiant powered by electricity. Is it cheap?? No, but sometimes it's not all about cheap. It's comfortable, there's no drafts, there's no fumes, there's no flame, there's no pilot light, no flue through the roof. I don't have to worry about fire, chemicals, fumes etc. My feet are always warm, I work in a T-shirt with the thermostat set at less than 60 degrees. My shop is more comfy at 60* than my house is at 70*.
Would it be cheaper to burn natural gas?? Yep, but by the time I add in what it would cost to get it hooked up and switch over all the equipment(most of which was there when I moved in), the payback would be rather long.
Maybe some day I'll switch fuel sources, but it'll always be radiant.