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Electric Heat

raffaelli

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We have central air, cold only.
We have oil hot water.
We have oil hot water baseboard heat.

We would like to change the house totally to electric heat. Do we add a heating element to the central air or install electric base board or use plug in electric heaters? Seems like adding an electric heater to both ac zones would be best?

Oh and add an electric hot water heater? Tankless?
 
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volleyball

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You can change your boiler to an electric boiler and leave your radiators. Or change them for electric baseboard or put a heating element in the inside A/C unit.
 

theoldwizard1

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Unless you are going to get some kind of special rate, you will find that electric heat is EXTREMELY expensive !

You really should look into a heat pump. Either one to replace your current A/C unit ot possible a couple of mini splits with air handlers in each room. More expensive to install, but it will pay back !
 
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raffaelli

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You can change your boiler to an electric boiler and leave your radiators. Or change them for electric baseboard or put a heating element in the inside A/C unit.

Yes, thanks. This is what we are trying to figure out.

Unless you are going to get some kind of special rate, you will find that electric heat is EXTREMELY expensive !

You really should look into a heat pump. Either one to replace your current A/C unit ot possible a couple of mini splits with air handlers in each room. More expensive to install, but it will pay back !

The electricity to my house is free (We get a credit for nearly all of it), so the cost to run is not really important.
 

rburke65

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The statement that "electric heat is EXTREMELY expensive" is misleading ..... Expensive compared to what? Depends on your electric rate per kilowatt hour, your location, insulation values, where you set your stat, number of family members.....lots of things. I am all electric and I love it. I'm thinking you have to compare cost per million btu or? Electric is 100% efficient.
 
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volleyball

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Yeah, you cannot say blanket statement that electric is extremely expensive. I went decades trying to justify going to a fuel source and it NEVER was cheaper to convert.
I finally replaced it, with another electric unit.
My utility has charts with averages to show how much people typically spend on heat with different age and style homes and my electric was consistently lower than gas or oil. And it is not like I keep it cold.
 

theoldwizard1

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The statement that "electric heat is EXTREMELY expensive" is misleading ..... Expensive compared to what? ... Electric is 100% efficient.

Yeah, and a heat pump is more than 100% efficient. (You are only paying the cost of "moving the heat" from outside to inside !)

Natural gas is MUCH less $/BTU !

There are a few location in the US and Canada where electric rates are very low, but this is the exception.
 
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theoldwizard1

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The electricity to my house is free (We get a credit for nearly all of it), ...

Care to share how you get FREE electricity ?

The only way I know is produce more electricity (solar, wind, hydro) and sell it to the power company, which acts as a huge AC "battery".
 

Showkey

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This site pretty well explains the costs per btu of the different fuels and devices that use the fuel:

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls


Here where I live if you produce more than you use the power company buys it back at a huge discount........I real screw and discourages selling power back.
 
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72puma

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very true. [we energies] the largest utility in wi. is now leading the midwest in the demise of renewable energy with all their new policies.stomping out the competition before it can get a foothold.
 
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BearsFan315

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If you go tankless water heater, electric ones require 100amp - 200amp based on the size @!@

we have a gas tankless and we will never go back to a tank !!
 

theoldwizard1

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This site pretty well explains the costs per btu of the different fuels and devices that use the fuel:

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls
Very interesting ! A snip from the section on electric costs.

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pseudorealityx

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That's misleading... Air source heat pumps are rated at COP's also. And geothermal doesn't include any of the pumping losses.
 

theoldwizard1

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That's misleading... Air source heat pumps are rated at COP's also. And geothermal doesn't include any of the pumping losses.
Even if your statements are accurate, air source and geothermal heat pumps are WAY more efficient than electric resistance heat. PERIOD !
 

JCByrd24

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Bath, ME
For the OP if electricity is truly free but you have to pay for the appliance and upkeep resistance is cheaper up front and cheaper to maintain than either heat pump. If being green matters and you want to reduce usage, it depends on the amount of usage. Geothermal tends to make more sense for very large residential or commercial loads, where air source makes a lot of sense for smaller loads, or where up front capital is an issue.

Oh, and an oil boiler will integrate pretty cheaply in place of your boiler and hot water. I would tend to believe your baseboard heat would be more comfortable than forced air heat.
 
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dave67fd

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If you haven't noticed electric rates are increasing at alarming rates but regardless still big difference in rates for one that lives in the Northeast compared to one who lives in the southern states. New england almost 12% rate increase. Some providers reaching nearly 30%.
For example, I pay more than double than what someone in say Louisiana pays.
 
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raffaelli

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If you go tankless water heater, electric ones require 100amp - 200amp based on the size @!@

we have a gas tankless and we will never go back to a tank !!

This has been one of my concerns. I have a 200a service to my house. I am concerned about the fridge, ac, keurig and the water heater all at once. May end up with a tank.
 
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raffaelli

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Yes it is true my electricity is free and so it is also for a bunch of friends also, which is why we are looking at this. I am aware of the huge rate increases which is why we have put ourselves in a position to get it free. If your interested I can show you how also, inbox me.

Not concerned about efficiency or comparisons to other fuel types. Electric only.

Seems as though we are going to grab a few plug in room heaters to get us through this winter and regroup for next with a more permanent solution. Probably heat coil in the central air. We will keep the oil heat as back up and use it till I run a circuit for an electric hot water heater.

Are instahots at the sinks worth it? Or should we stick with one heater?
 
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Showkey

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Yes it is true my electricity is free and so it is also for a bunch of friends also, which is why we are looking at this. I am aware of the huge rate increases which is why we have put ourselves in a position to get it free.

Sounds like jumping the meter :headscrat
 

Charles (in GA)

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This has been one of my concerns. I have a 200a service to my house. I am concerned about the fridge, ac, keurig and the water heater all at once. May end up with a tank.

200 amp service is not going to get you to first base if you go total electric and the house is of any size at all. Its not a matter of free electricity, its a matter of having a large enough service to power the heat.

Whole house instant electric water heater will require two 60 amp/240 volt circuits, each drawing 48 amps, so you are looking at half of your service just to run the water heater when you are drawing water. Electric tank type of course is a single 30 amp/240 volt circuit.

Resistance heat will take lots of power, heat pump will cost more but draw much less. In the NY climate you will need a super efficient cold climate heat pump.

Charles
 
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jvitez

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If your hot water baseboards are in good shape I would install an electric boiler. Forced air is really the worst way to heat. Why? Moving air feels cold, fans are noisy, it circulates dust, and requires regular air filter changes. In-floor radiant is the best, baseboard heat is next. As you've already experienced, baseboard heat is quiet, comfortable, heats evenly, no dust, and other than seasonal vacuuming of the fins basically maintenance free.

I have geothermal heat in a very energy efficient house: R60 ceiling, high density spray foam 2x6 walls (~R33), triple paned argon filled double-low-E coated windows, insulated steel doors, HRV's, yet at current fuel prices I'm not really saving anything as opposed to NG heat. Our electric rate is ~7.5 cents/kWh. We have two water to water heat pumps, well to well open loop, with 4 fan coils on 4 zones each running at low speed 24/7 to allow the HRV make-up air to circulate. Unfortunately each fan coil motor uses 500 watts to run the fan no matter what the fan speed. Our house was built in 2006 just before DC motors were common. Unfortunately I'm therefore using 2kW of electricity 24/7.

Geothermal will definitely save energy in cooling though, as dumping heat into cold well water is much more efficient than dumping heat into hot summer air as a regular AC unit does. But if I could do it over again I'd do NG boiler fired in-floor radiant heat, with a separate AC system. We built when NG prices were over $7 vs $2.92 today per MMBtu, and all the pundits were saying NG prices were going to continue to rise. Hindsight is truly 20/20.....:) So geothermal isn't all it's touted to be depending on the configuration, and it's capital cost is high.

An electric plenum heater in your AC system would work, but I certainly wouldn't eliminate baseboard heat unless the system is really old and ready to be replaced anyway. Then the cheapest is a plenum heater. But electric boilers are surprisingly cheap.
 

volleyball

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To go electric tankless, I'd want to have 400a service. That is out of pocket. Since the power is free, an 80 gallon insulated standard tank may be ideal.
 

SARG

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I have a 200a service and total electric. My current bill in weather that is staying near zero and below is $300. a month.
 

Showkey

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I have a 200a service and total electric. My current bill in weather that is staying near zero and below is $300. a month.

Beyond the OP free power........
Beyond want the spread sheets says..........
If we are trying to confirm electric is expensive........200a electric service with NG heat and hot water total all in bill is $200 per month thats with heating a 24x36 shop. Lows in the last week have been -12 to -25 F.
When I purchased and looking for the property I was avoiding propane heat to avoid the high costs especially last here when prices spiked to $5 per gallon.

My daughter's brand new all electric condo in central Kansas has a air to air heat pump winter, bills are bouncing around $400 and she never feels warm.
 

bookman51

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Kearney, Nebraska
I had the highest electric bill last month probably ever had in ten years, and it was a shade over $200. We have all electric house with geothermal furnace in Nebraska. Now I have been working in the shop with a couple of electric heaters (5000w) supplemented by a torpedo diesel heater (which is more expensive than the electric heaters). The two resistance heaters in the shop runs up my bill some.

Natural gas runs to property line a couple hundred yards away, but pricy to run it to the shop, and then I would have a monthly bill year around and the cost of installing a natural gas furnace. If I worked all the time in the shop, natural gas would have a sooner payout, but since I work there on an occasional basis, the natural gas payout is several years down the line. Situations vary.
 

Charles (in GA)

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How does one sign up to get free electricity? Does the power company ignore you when you need service? If a storm hits, do they get to you last? Who in these days and times gives something away?

If the OP is referring to solar power/battery banks/inverters, or wind generators/batteries/inverters, the power isn't FREE at all, but costs just like you paid for it from the POCO.
 

Showkey

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How does one sign up to get free electricity? Does the power company ignore you when you need service? If a storm hits, do they get to you last? Who in these days and times gives something away?

If the OP is referring to solar power/battery banks/inverters, or wind generators/batteries/inverters, the power isn't FREE at all, but costs just like you paid for it from the POCO.

The way the OP talks it unlimited none of the solar, wind etc are unlimited......

It's free if your stealing it:thumbup: until you get caught.........
 

theoldwizard1

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If the OP is referring to solar power/battery banks/inverters, or wind generators/batteries/inverters, the power isn't FREE at all, but costs just like you paid for it from the POCO.

Charles, you have to get up to date ! Batteries are no longer required (big cost savings). The POCO is the "battery". Special "grid tie" inverters pump excess energy from your solar/wind generation back into the grid. I pretty sure all states now REQUIRE the POCO to buy your power (at what rate is a different issue).

If you make extra during the day, they just sell it back to you at night !
 

Charles (in GA)

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Charles, you have to get up to date ! Batteries are no longer required (big cost savings). The POCO is the "battery". Special "grid tie" inverters pump excess energy from your solar/wind generation back into the grid. I pretty sure all states now REQUIRE the POCO to buy your power (at what rate is a different issue).

If you make extra during the day, they just sell it back to you at night !

If you are not on a grid, you do need batteries. That would be the only way you have power 24/7. If he were on a grid, selling back power, then consumption would still be an issue.

Some states do not allow commercial generation of power unless you are a state sanctioned utility. Florida is one, they are considering changing that so people can generate solar and sell it to the POCO.

Charles
 
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raffaelli

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No solar panels on my house. No jumping the meter. Just traditional power coming to the house for free. If youd like to know how inbox me.


I have wanted to increase the house service to 400a from 200a...just because. After the changes to the way we run the house, we will see what happens and my bring a bidder service in.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of the electric furnace for hot water baseboard. Any particular models I should be looking at? House is 2800 sf. 5 zones. Two floors plus finished basement.
 

jives

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My guess is that the OP is selling for Ambit or something like that, and appreciate that he/she is avoiding that conversation. To get to the original question, the use of hydronic radiant heat seems the most feasible. Forced hot air is dirty and full of maintenance. The most simple, in my humble opinion, would be an electric hot water tank and baseboards.
 

theoldwizard1

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Some states do not allow commercial generation of power unless you are a state sanctioned utility. Florida is one, they are considering changing that so people can generate solar and sell it to the POCO.
I have a buddy in FL. He sells his excess solar back to the POCO (typically when he is not there),
 

Showkey

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Selling your personal excess is not commercial generation. I think personal is allowed most places.


True.........but varies widely on the price paid, power companies got regulators to approve as much as a 70-80 % discount on the pay back. That makes personal selling back a real screw in some areas. Example you buy at .10 KW they buy back at .03kw. Some power companies buy back at par but that is also rare.
 

DC73

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True.........but varies widely on the price paid, power companies got regulators to approve as much as a 70-80 % discount on the pay back. That makes personal selling back a real screw in some areas. Example you buy at .10 KW they buy back at .03kw. Some power companies buy back at par but that is also rare.

Pardon the hijack. I'll try to shed some light on how this works. The problem is doing so without writing a long-winded dissertation on the subject.

Power is really priced by the hour. The load on the electrical grid varies hour to hour. As the load varies, power companies must adjust generation to meet that load. The combination of generation that is operating in any given hour is what dictates the price for that hour.

All generators have a sweet spot. The sweet spot is the load at which they are most fuel efficient. Power companies (and customers) want those generators running at the sweet spot to make the most economical power. But the variation of the load from hour to hour means that it is difficult at best to achieve running each generator at optimum load.

Some generators are designed to be cycled on and off while others cannot be. It is now becoming common in many power markets that power costs can go negative during minimum load conditions. That's right, some power producers will pay someone to take power during off peak conditions because it keeps generators online and nearer to running at the sweet spot.

Some generators only operate during peak load conditions. These units are often called "peakers". They generally are the least efficient units and cost the most to operate.

During peak load conditions, all generation including the peakers are online and operating. During these times power costs can be $1.00/kWh or more.

Wind and solar can be problematic for power companies because enough backup generation must still be online to take the place of the wind and solar should conditions warrant. Wind speed can be highly variable over the course of an hour and a dark cloud can cut solar output drastically so other generation is required to be running in standby (or at lower load than optimum) to pick up the load immediately as needed.

Power companies frequently have take or pay wholesale contracts which require them to buy power even when they don't need it. Or they might schedule a power delivery of X amount for hour #17 of the day and then heavy cloud cover causes the load to be less than expected but they have to pay for the scheduled amount anyway.

All of these complexities is what led regulators to come up with something known as the "avoided cost" method for paying customers who sell power back to the utility company. This requires power companies to calculate the cost they avoided by buying power instead from a customer and that becomes the rate paid to customers who sell power back.

That avoided cost can be negative at times of low load and astronomical at times of peak load so utilities usually calculate an average avoided cost.

Regulators looked at other ways of having power companies buy back power but most involve other customers subsidizing the buy back and that's why it's not an apples to apples buy back.

It's pretty complicated and I could have expounded for more pages than anyone would care to read but I hope this helps a bit.

DC
 
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