Electric Heater

[shersh]

Hi all,

I got a great deal on CL on 2 Berko Huhaa520 heaters for my garage. The name plate calls for 208v single phase. My panel is 240. Do you think it will damage the heater to try to run it on 240?

 

[1Garageman]

208v is 3 phase power, sorry

This should help you.

http://www.oempanels.com/208v-single-phase-and-208v-3-phase

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Hi all,



I got a great deal on CL on 2 Berko Huhaa520 heaters for my garage. The name plate calls for 208v single phase. My panel is 240. Do you think it will damage the heater to try to run it on 240?

A quick google search of them shows they have 24 volt control transformer built in. Itll be running at more than 24 volts if you feed it more power than 208. But that's not even the biggest worry here.

If it's not "slash" rated for 208/240 volts, I personally would advise against hooking up the heater to 240 volts.

Its rated at 5k watts at 208. Hooking it up to 240 will increase the output of it.

Now, if it is a single phase 208 volt unit you could pick up a step down transformer (something like a buck boost transformer). Problem here is you'll likely pay more for the transformer than 2 new heaters are worth.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[laser3kw]

search for the manual
Huhaa 520 manual link
page 4 of manual:

8.Single or three-phase power connections may be used with heater models HUHAA520,HUHAA524 HUHAA720, HUHAA724, HUHAA1020, HUHAA1024and HUHAA1520. These units are factory wired for single phase operation. If these heaters are for use with three-phased power, reconnect the wires as indicated in the wiring diagram attached to the heater. Additional information can be found by looking at the wiring illustrations in Figures 3a and 3b and following the directions shown below

page 5 shows the wiring diagram. Check you unit to see if it matches the single phase diagram.
Page 7 has a sample unit spec tag. As Kevin said, verify that it states "208 / 240" volts.

 

[TRWham]

It is not unusual to have small single phase 208 V loads in a facility with 208 V 3 PH service, so single phase 208 V equipment does exist. If you put 240 Volts on a heater rated for 208, it will draw about 33% more power than the nameplate states for 208. These seem to be rated 208 only- there must be a reason for that.

 

[laser3kw]

the manual (see above link) states the model Huhaa520 is 240 / 208 and gives instruction to switch it from factory 240v single to 208v 3 phase

 

[TRWham]

Other models do appear to be spread voltage, but I only see references to the 520 as 208 V. That sample data plate was for a 324.

 

[Terry D]

Its seems like the specs does say just 208. It can be ran off of 3 phase or single phase. That may confuse some. To me, 2 hots of 3 phase is still 3 phase, it's just 2 hots from it. It's all about how the voltage is generated. Depending on how good of deal you got, to get these heaters to run of the voltage they are designed for, you could get a buck/boost transformer to take your 240 down to 208. Its probably not going to be cheap. You would have to take the combined amp draw from the 2 size it. Or get 2 if on separate circuits. If you just change the control transformers, you will still be putting 240 to the heater elements. They will get hotter than normal. Try calling the manufacturer and ask them, maybe the elements can take it. The control transformers would beat cheaper route


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[shersh]

Thanks for the replies. I had looked at all of the manuals and thought the same thing you all are telling me, I was just hoping to have someone tell me different. I got these for $30 a piece and seem like a great solution to heat my garage. Maybe the transformers would be worth it.

Anyone vote for the option of hooking one up and see what happens? At the price I got them I wouldn't be out much if it burned out an element or something. As long as there is no risk of fire.

 

[shersh]

I just called the manufacturer and the guy said applying 240 will burn the elements out. Dang.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Can you post a pic of the electrical data plate on one of the heaters.

Hooking it up to your 240V mains could be an option, but it absolutely has to be wired correctly, as with anything, there could be a risk of fire. The level of protection you have has to be weighed against the potential risk.

 

[shersh]

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Well that's a bummer about the "official" word from the manufacturer, though I doubt from a liability stand point they'd say anything different. I did see where it stated 1/3ph but that just means it has a single phase motor and it's got a hot on each end of the element, after all, if you have three phase, by default you have single phase.

 

[alfredeneuman]

To me, 2 hots of 3 phase is still 3 phase

The rest of the World considers it single phase.

 

[Norcal]

Either replace the element(s), or put a buck/boost transformer on it to buck the voltage down. Those that say 208V is 3 phase there are many buildings that the panels are 120/208V single phase the downtown of the city I live in is that way as are many larger apartment buildings.

 

[laser3kw]

I just called the manufacturer and the guy said applying 240 will burn the elements out. Dang.

I wonder if he meant instantly burns them out or shortens the life?
As someone else pointed out the difference between 208 and 240 is 15%. If true, that would make the elements "burn hotter" (pull more current)and shorten the life (dramatically?)
If the OP is a gambling man and wants to roll the dice for $30, go for it.

As long as there is no risk of fire.

with any heater, there is a risk of fire. Caveat' - test the heater away from risky items. Do not stand near when you pull it in.
Maybe the buck boost transformer is an option.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

how many heating elements does it have? maybe you can wire them in series and have a lower wattage heater. certainly won't burn out the elements that way.

 

[TRWham]

I wonder if he meant instantly burns them out or shortens the life?
As someone else pointed out the difference between 208 and 240 is 15%. If true, that would make the elements "burn hotter" (pull more current)and shorten the life (dramatically?)
If the OP is a gambling man and wants to roll the dice for $30, go for it.

with any heater, there is a risk of fire. Caveat' - test the heater away from risky items. Do not stand near when you pull it in.
Maybe the buck boost transformer is an option.

No, the difference is 33%. Ohm's law tells us that for a given resistance, the power will go up by the square of the ratio of voltage.

 

[klassenl]

I would hook it up and give it a go. What do you have to lose? Don't leave it unattended until you're sure it's not going to burn up. At worst the elements will have a short but productive life.

 

[Norcal]

It is a code violation to supply a voltage outside of the range that the appliance was designed for, and buck/boost transformers are used to correct that problem all the time.

 

[Fasthotrod]

No, the difference is 33%. Ohm's law tells us that for a given resistance, the power will go up by the square of the ratio of voltage.

Correct. If we assume the following:

Volts: 208 VAC
Amperes: 24A

Using Ohm's Law: Volts = Amperes * Resistance
Or simply: V = I * R

R = 8.666 Ohms.

Watts = Volts * Amperes
Watts = 208 VAC * 24A = 4,992 watts

Now solve for amperes using 240 VAC:

240 VAC = I * 8.666 Ohms
240/8.666 = I
I = 27.69 A

Solve for Watts:

Watts = 240 VAC * 27.69 A
Watts = 6,646

Difference between 4,992 and 6,646 = Approximately 33% increase.

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[laser3kw]

Correct. If we assume the following:

Volts: 208 VAC
Amperes: 24A

Using Ohm's Law: Volts = Amperes * Resistance
Or simply: V = I * R

R = 8.666 Ohms.

Watts = Volts * Amperes
Watts = 208 VAC * 24A = 4,992 watts

Now solve for amperes using 240 VAC:

240 VAC = I * 8.666 Ohms
240/8.666 = I
I = 27.69 A

Solve for Watts:

Watts = 240 VAC * 27.69 A
Watts = 6,646

Difference between 4,992 and 6,646 = Approximately 33% increase.

Hope this helps.

Mark

DOH!
That went right past me. I just looked at the voltage difference.
Forgot to look at power (watts)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would hook it up and give it a go. What do you have to lose? Don't leave it unattended until you're sure it's not going to burn up. At worst the elements will have a short but productive life.

Thats a good way to melt something since the elements will be outputting more than theyre designed for

This is horrible advice

 

[mm08822]

Buy a buck boost xformer if you are going to keep the heater.

Acme# T181059 120 X 240 - 16/32V, 750VA
$160 from Zoro or Walmart online(really)

 

[Showkey]

Buy a buck boost xformer if you are going to keep the heater.

Acme# T181059 120 X 240 - 16/32V, 750VA
$160 from Zoro or Walmart online(really)

Or buy 240v 5000 watt heater at Northern tool for $90

 

[shersh]

I’ll just try to resell them. They are a great deal if you have 208 service. Now Im looking at other options. Thanks for all of your advice.


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[Terry D]

The rest of the World considers it single phase.

This could be argued alot.

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[Terry D]

I have never seen that system. Only 120/208 that I'm familiar with is a 3 phase wye system. Learn something new everyday.

Either replace the element(s), or put a buck/boost transformer on it to buck the voltage down. Those that say 208V is 3 phase there are many buildings that the panels are 120/208V single phase the downtown of the city I live in is that way as are many larger apartment buildings.

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[TRWham]

I have never seen that system. Only 120/208 that I'm familiar with is a 3 phase wye system. Learn something new everyday.

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It's the same thing, but only one phase of the 3 is used. In strip centers, for example, the facility is usually served by 208 3 phase from a customer transformer, but each suite may only get 2 lines plus a neutral so they have single phase 208 and 120 available out of a three wire panelboard.

Even in suites that have 3 phase, like a supermarket, there can be equipment like meat saws or self-contained refrigeration running on single phase 208 while the large central refrigeration and HVAC are on 3 phase. I laid out many panels back in the day with an eye toward balancing the single phase loads across the 3 lines.

 

[Terry D]

I understand what your saying. I dont believe I have ever seen a panel with just 2 hots of 208 and a neutral. So would that be a single phase panel being used.

It's the same thing, but only one phase of the 3 is used. In strip centers, for example, the facility is usually served by 208 3 phase from a customer transformer, but each suite may only get 2 lines plus a neutral so they have single phase 208 and 120 available out of a three wire panelboard.

Even in suites that have 3 phase, like a supermarket, there can be equipment like meat saws or self-contained refrigeration running on single phase 208 while the large central refrigeration and HVAC are on 3 phase. I laid out many panels back in the day with an eye toward balancing the single phase loads across the 3 lines.

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[Terry D]

I guess I'm just confusing how the voltage is generated, that's why I call it 3 phase

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[alfredeneuman]

I guess I'm just confusing how the voltage is generated, that's why I call it 3 phase

All generators that are used for supplying electricity to it's customers are 3 phase.
Single phase transformers in banks of 3 are interconnected for 3 phase Y connections and use all 3 high voltage legs
1 single phase transformer connected to 2 of the 3 high voltage legs are used for single phase power.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

To me, 2 hots of 3 phase is still 3 phase, it's just 2 hots from it.

The rest of the World considers it single phase.

This could be argued alot.

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Not sure how one could argue it any other way. Its not 3 phase because youre missing a phase.

I have never seen that system. Only 120/208 that I'm familiar with is a 3 phase wye system. Learn something new everyday.

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Its literally the same system. Instead of having 3 phase legs it has 2.

No different than having a panel board with 2 phases of a 480Y/277v system and a neutral. 480 between the hot legs and 277 between either leg and neutral.

I understand what your saying. I dont believe I have ever seen a panel with just 2 hots of 208 and a neutral. So would that be a single phase panel being used.

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yes its a single phase panel. only need 2 buses for the ungrounded conductors.

I guess I'm just confusing how the voltage is generated, that's why I call it 3 phase

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The voltage is generated in the same manner whether theres 3 legs or 2.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I understand what your saying. I dont believe I have ever seen a panel with just 2 hots of 208 and a neutral. So would that be a single phase panel being used.

That's what I had in my old shop. I originally had a 3-phase 208 panel, with 120V and 208V circuits (I had no actual 3-phase loads). When the wiring was redone at some point, I ended up with a single-phase panel that was just on two of the legs, so I had exactly what I had before without the presence of the third phase.

 

[Terry D]

I'm not trying to argue. These forums are for people to ask questions and learn. Some people on here want to just find something wrong about what you say. I learn new stuff every day. I just saying I have never seen a single phase panel with 2 hots and neutral from 208 feeding it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It's just not done here like that. To many people want to argue here


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[Terry D]

It's just not something that I have seen. All 3 phase panels here have all 3 phases in them, whether there are just 2 pole breakers coming out of them.

That's what I had in my old shop. I originally had a 3-phase 208 panel, with 120V and 208V circuits (I had no actual 3-phase loads). When the wiring was redone at some point, I ended up with a single-phase panel that was just on two of the legs, so I had exactly what I had before without the presence of the third phase.

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[BDT/NWMN]

Or buy 240v 5000 watt heater at Northern tool for $90

Yep; the "normal stuff" that was built for the purpose of heating a garage with 240 volt electrical power, and is code compliant. I have two similar heaters.

 

[Terry D]

Not that I haven't noticed it, just never seen it.

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[Terry D]

I understand that

All generators that are used for supplying electricity to it's customers are 3 phase.
Single phase transformers in banks of 3 are interconnected for 3 phase Y connections and use all 3 high voltage legs
1 single phase transformer connected to 2 of the 3 high voltage legs are used for single phase power.

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[Kevin Essiambre]

I just saying I have never seen a single phase panel with 2 hots and neutral from 208 feeding it.

This is incredibly common in high rise apartment buildings. They use single phase panels in the units themselves, fed with 120/208 from a three phase panel.

If you don't work in the electrical trade (or a few other jobs that would know these things), you would have no way of knowing that its even done.

Next time I'm working on one I'll snap some photos for you, if I remember.


Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.