Electric vs Gas Infrared/Radiant Heaters

[Everyday]

I'm looking for a more permanent solution to heating the garage. I don't have natural gas here so if I went with a gas heater I would need to do propane and have tank(s) installed outside.

I'm just wondering if anyone has ever used an electric radiant? Do they heat as well as gas and what are the costs of one vs the other?

I was thinking of installing a 8 or 10 of these http://www.heater-store.com/electric-infrared-heaters-indoor-outdoor-standard-duty-electric-heater-fostoria-rph-240-a_1357_prd1.htm

but I'm not sure if I should just go with two larger 15k or 20k BTU units.

 

[Everyday]

Yes, that's why I like them. I'm just wondering if they are any more or less efficient than gas. I'm really trying to find someone who is using them to find out more.

 

[stitch]

Based on national average propane, natural gas, and electric costs: natural gas is least expensive to run, followed by electric, then propane.

FUEL / ENERGY CONTENT / UNIT PRICE / HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY / COST PER MILLION BTU / COST PER HOUR (100,000 BTU/HR)

Propane 92,000 BTU/gal $3.00 /gal 80% $40.76 $4.08
Natural Gas 100,000 BTU/therm $1.54 /therm* 80% $19.25 $1.93
Electricity - 3,412 BTU/kWh $0.10 /kWh** 100% $29.31 $2.93

 

[79firebird]

My work installed 2 of them last year about 25 feet long each. Had them on propane tell the gas line came in we went thru about $500 in propane every 2-3 weeks. On Natural gas we noticed it heated up a lot faster and cheaper it was $700 for 2 months. Mind you thats using them 6 days a week 8 hours a day so your use would be way less.

 

[crxmotorsports]

Does anyone have actual experience with the electric infrared heaters? What is used to control temperature? It looks like most places selling them have special control units, so I am assuming you cannot use a typical thermostat like is used for in house baseboard electric heaters?

 

[vinculum]

I'm considering several of these 5ft electric Fostoria units on Ebay.

Microsoft's Cash back program is giving you 30% off any Ebay Buy it Now item paid with Paypal. Its hard to turn down 30% cash back and 1% back on my credit card..

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

What's this discount now?

 

[vinculum]

You can read about it here.

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=937306

If thats too many details for you, simply click on this link

http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=wii&go=&form=QBLH

Then click on "Wii". You'll notice a small graphic at the top of your Ebay screen that say 30% off cashback program. You now have an hour to purchase a "Buy it Now" and use Paypal to pay. You'll then get an Ebay message under My Ebay, Messages that says you've got cash back and instructs you to signup for the program. In 90 days the cashback will be available to transfer into your Paypal account.

Its usually 8% back, so 30% has people going gonzo. It wont last long before its back to 8%. Oh and there is a cap on the limit back. $200. So its good upto $600 of purchases.

Thats the nuts and bolts. Slickdeals is a great forum for finding deals. I've been on it for a long time and got some great bargains.

Good luck!

 

[vinculum]

I just picked up the Fostoria OCH-57-240V 3-pack with contactor box & thermostat for $529.99 Ebay Buy it Now. Got $159 coming back through the MS Cashback program, and an additional 1% off with my credit card.

Let see $529-$159 = $370.99 - $5.65 (1% of original total) + $35 shipping = $400. Not too bad considering it also comes with the contactor box & thermostat

On a side note, I had to use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox, as it wasn't showing up in Firefox. Others reported same thing.

I plan on using these for the front of my 60x40 insulated garage to heat the bay I work on cars and my workbench/tool area. I hadn't realized electric was cheaper than propane at this point. I'm currently paying 6.6 cents/Kwh in Pennsylvania. I know its going up very soon hopefully not too much. I've mulled over lots of heating options, and radiant electric has many benefits I wanted except cost to operate, but after running the numbers its not that bad at all. As Tesla once said. "The future is electric!"

Dr V

 

[vinculum]

I've been running the numbers comparing electric and propane, like Stitch did a few posts back and the results are alarming. Out in the woods, we dont have natural gas, so propane is the gas of choice for home heating. Last year my last propane fillup was $3.49/gallon. I didn't get a fill up yet this year, but I expect it to be the same and going higher as winter approaches. My electric rate is 6.6 cents per Kwh. Running the numbers shows that the equivalent cost for electric to produce the same BTUs as a gallon of propane is $1.76. Factor in 85% efficiency, as my home boiler is, and the cost drops to $1.50 electric vs. $3.49. Wow. Mostly everyone's opinion is electric is more expensive to heat with. Seems to me the cost rate of petroleum products will rise much faster than the cost of electricity. Food for thought eh?

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

vinculum, where did you find the 3 pack? I'd like to grab it also, maybe two packs!!!

 

[vinculum]

http://stores.ebay.com/DWD-Components-Corp

He has a 5-pack of heaters too for $919 (2 contactor panels). You'd only get the max $200 off this package with the microsoft cash back. You might be better off with 2 of the 3-packs. Then you could get 30% off each purchase. I can't believe the 30% is still good, but it is. I bought a Wicked Laser green laser pointer. Its unbelievable, you can see the beam itself for miles outside! (New toys!)

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

Very cool! I just ordered the 3 pack. If it works out I'll probably get another 3 pack and 2 more so I can have 8 all together.

Thanks for the tip!!!

I just got the drywall and insulation done in the ceiling last night so I'll probably mount these on an angle on the walls. I was hoping to mount two on each end of the "work space" which is 30 wide by 40 deep. The only thing I worry about is the garage doors are on the one end. If I put the garage door up I wonder if it will cook the paint off the door since it would be so close.

 

[vinculum]

Good deal. Now we can both figure it out together! Did you sign up to get the 30% off? I see they dropped it to 20% now.

I like the idea of chain mounting them and being able to angle them. I don't quite have placement figured out, i need more garage time to go stare at the ceiling. I too have garage door concerns. A pair of 16x10 doors with a 3ft space in between I have a workbench. I could put it over the workbench, or at the end and angle it towards the bench and door openings. I like the latter, because I plan on having an air hose reel on the ceiling above the bench eventually. I also have to figure out conduit and paint the wall before i attach conduit. It could be a cold winter before I get mine properly connected. I did not see much information online about the contactor box, so i assume its easy to figure out for those familiar with electronics.

In your case I would tend to think, Yes, You would cook the paint off the garage door! You'd have to discipline yourself to not put the doors up when the heater is on, or find alternative placement. Maybe an automatic shutoff when the garage door opens wouldn't be too difficult to figure out.

I've seen some nice triac based temperature controllers, expensive though. Also wire cages over the heaters might be a good idea. $30 ea.

I have no idea how these are being shipped, haven't heard anything from the seller yet. I'll see what the truck brings first before figuring out everything else....I'll keep you posted.

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

I did get the discount. Great deal!

I have a large space to heat so I'm hoping to have a nice combination of these along with my 200,000 BTU bullet heater. I figure I can go out and turn on the bullet, ceiling fans and radiants. At some point the radiants should help to cut down on the bullet heater use.

I just finished drywalling and insulating the ceiling so I will probably angle mount them on the walls, which aren't finished yet. I have 12 and 14 foot ceiling heights in a 40 x 60 space. I know these radiants aren't going to heat the entire space but I'm hoping that four of them could do half, 30 x 40. If that's the case then I can get another contractor pack plus 2 more and MAYBE have clean, quiet heat most of the time.

I'm in West Chester, so I'm not to far from you. We should have the same weather temps so this will be interesting to see how they work out.

 

[vinculum]

I'm sure with that 200,000 BTU bullet and ceiling fans you should have no trouble heating. But I can see why you'd want to get away from the unvented bullet heater. I have a large unvented portable propane heater. My issue with using it is that it puts out major moisture in the air, to the point where the water can drip and pool. I've also used a kero bullet heater, but the fumes really stink.

Did you get the 57" heaters? I see in your original post, you were looking at 24" versions.

West Chester, You're only a short drive away. My Mother commutes to Concordville daily from West York.

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

I bought the 57 inch units.

Believe it or not the fumes aren't to bad from the bullet, especially if I run heating oil in it. Still, it's loud and I want a nice quiet garage.

I have a bunch of friends who moved our to York. I get out there sometimes for car shows and other events.

 

[vinculum]

I emailed the seller and he said the units are shipping directly from the factory and individually boxed.

Seems to be a car show every weekend somewhere in York. I used to take my prostreet camaro out to them, but with the cost of racing fuel I can barely afford to drive out of the countryside to the main roads! My next motor wont have as high of a compression ratio. For now the car sits in the corner of the garage until other projects are completed.

Dr V

 

[vinculum]

FYI, My heaters came today via UPS. Everything looks good. I measured the resistance of the elements at 20 ohms, which is correct for 3000 watts @ 240 volts and ensures the filament inside isn't open. Next up planning and a hefty trip to Lowes for wire & accesories. I might need to get a 10% off coupon from Ebay for that!

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

How long did it take for your stuff to arrive? I haven't heard a peep out of them so far and its been four or five days. Figured I would have received shipping information by now.

 

[vinculum]

Ordered the 2nd, arrived the 8th (2 days were weekend) Via UPS. No tracking either.

 

[Everyday]

Mine just arrived today. Guess I can get to work installing them.

 

[vinculum]

Everyday, How is the install going?

I just put a tube in the housing today. I see I need a box at the end to house the wire nuts. Kits with the box, grommet, plug and cord are $36. I could probably do it cheaper buying the parts at Lowes/Home Depot.

Another issue on wiring. If you run the contactor output to 3 parallel outlets, you run the risk of a single heater being able to draw the full amperage of the breaker should it malfuntion. Or do you individually run smaller wire from the contactor to each outlet and fuse each one for 15-20amps. This is what I'm considering. Having plugs allows a way of running select heaters instead of 3 at once.

Just thought I'd throw some ideas around and see what you were going to do.

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

My friends Dad is coming over tomorrow night to go over what we need for wiring. I'll probably one large cable to the contractor box from the panel and then out to the heaters.

Are you hanging yours from the ceiling or wall mounting them?

 

[vinculum]

From the "contactor panel to the heaters" is what I'm curious how he will run. Individual to each heater, or 1 big run. I just bought a 50 amp breaker to feed the contactor. Then somehow I'm going to protect each individual heater with a 15 or 20amp fuse?

I'll be hanging mine. I like the idea of being able to tilt them with the chain one way or the other to change the coverage pattern (toward the bays/workbench or away to another space)

Dr V

 

[Everyday]

We're just going to make a single run to all the heaters. Going to put the contractor panel near the breaker panel so when they are off there won't be any electricity running through the wire.

Probably going to run 10/2 wire.

 

[vinculum]

Really you could put the contactor panel wherever you wanted. The main reason to keep it close is to minimize the resistance (thus power loss) from the breaker panel to the contactor. The distance from the breaker panel won't have any effect on whether current flows through the wires or not. That will be determined by whatever controls the contactor (thermostat).

I'm guessing I'm going to use 8 AWG THHN through EMT, but I haven't done any calculations yet. Life is keeping my busy with other things for the moment.

I look forward to your impressions of their performance! Post some pictures when you're done.

Dr V

 

[bookman51]

So how are the radiant heaters working out? I am thinking of the same thing to heat just the shop area of a 40' x 72' building. Bookman

 

[vinculum]

Funny you ask this right now, because I just did a temporary hookup of one of them today to evaluate. Initial impressions leave me a little UNimpressed. For 3000 watts of focused heat I guess I expected a little bit better performance. I'm going to get the opinions of several garage dweller friends for a sanity check and continue to evaluate.

Hey Everyday, How did you make out?

Dr V

 

[bookman51]

Dr. V, Thanks for letting me know. I am interested in how others made out with anything similar.

Bookman

 

[Dragster Racer]

I'm thinking that at only 10,000 btu's each, you may not be that impressed with the heat they put out. However, once the area is up to temperature, I would think that it would be hard to beat. I am really having a tough time convincing myself that electric may now be cheaper than propane. Too many decades of just the oposite being driven into my brain. I think those would be really neat for heating areas where you are working in a larger shop that is already heated to a reasonable temp.

 

[Everyday]

They're HOT. The thing is they won't warm up a cold building quickly. They need a lot of time to get things heated. I use them in connection with a fuel oil bullet heater. I turn on the bullet for about 15 minutes along with the infrared and it warms up the air enough to work. Within an hour or so the infrareds have heated enough and heat bodies very well.

If you leave them on all the time they'll warm the place. Remember that infrared heats surfaces and items. So once it warms up the floor, cars, etc they're nice.

 

[vinculum]

I have mine on about a 2' drop from a 12' ceiling. 1-2' away they make me feel warm (standing on chair), but standing on the floor, only my face feels the effects when i look up. I estimated I could detect some heat in a 9' x 6' wide pattern. It was 45 degrees today in my shop, 20's outside (thanks to good insulation and thick slab). Thermometer 12' away went up about .8 degrees in the couple hours I had it on. Small metal tools directly beneath the heater on my 4' tall workbench just started to feel like they might have been warm. 1/2" ratchet was stone cold. Perhaps I need to use them in conjunction with another heat source like Everyday suggested. I don't suspect a single heater will give me what I want over each of my work areas. Maybe I'll experiment with lowering it tommorow morning, but I know doing this they will be in my way. The jury is still out to whether I'm going to continue the permanent install. If my friends concur, I'll probably unload them and try something else.

Dr V

 

[Rickochet]

I have mine on about a 2' drop from a 12' ceiling. 1-2' away they make me feel warm (standing on chair), but standing on the floor, only my face feels the effects when i look up. I estimated I could detect some heat in a 9' x 6' wide pattern. It was 45 degrees today in my shop, 20's outside (thanks to good insulation and thick slab). Thermometer 12' away went up about .8 degrees in the couple hours I had it on. Small metal tools directly beneath the heater on my 4' tall workbench just started to feel like they might have been warm. 1/2" ratchet was stone cold. Perhaps I need to use them in conjunction with another heat source like Everyday suggested. I don't suspect a single heater will give me what I want over each of my work areas. Maybe I'll experiment with lowering it tommorow morning, but I know doing this they will be in my way. The jury is still out to whether I'm going to continue the permanent install. If my friends concur, I'll probably unload them and try something else.

Dr V

Keep us posted. I too am looking at installing some sort of electric heat in my 32'X32' garage. I am in NE Indiana where it gets cold, down to ZERO but doesn't typically stay there for more than a few days.

I really liked the deal on the infrared, but if they don't do the job, I don't want to buy them. One of the other heaters I have been looking at is a 10kw forced air unit for about $700 new. Any feed back would be appreciated!

Good luck with you adventure too!

 

[vinculum]

Today I turned the heater on about 9am and had it on till 5pm, along with a 1500 watt oil filled radiator just for kicks. Not too bad. My tools were warmer, but the 1/2" ratchet was still cold, as was my wilton vise of course. It actually wasn't too bad. I was painting walls today and took breaks under the heater. I might have to put all 3 over my main workbench (3'x8') and overlap the coverage. 9kw should make it cozy. My subpanel is 100amps and I'm trying to save room for everything I need! The equivalent alternative is, like you said, a 10kw forced air unit. Which one were you looking at for $700? I'd say experience with it was a little better today. I got the air temp up to 56, but as the sun disapeared, the temp dropped to 54 before I shut down and left. It was comfortable inside to work, yet in the low 30's with snow on the ground outside.

Dr V

 

[Dragster Racer]

If I used the formula and the prices I most recently paid, electric is $1.76 and propane $3.02. Dang! Electric won again. I just can't get over this.
How is the efficiency of the electric units with the fan? Does that cut it back some? Are the radient propanes more efficient than the 80% used in the formula?

 

[vinculum]

Yeah it's hard to imagine electric is cheaper but after you run the numbers you see times have changed!

I imagine any gas heater with a vent will always be under 100% efficient because the exhaust gas will always have some heat in it. You'd have to look up a particular model to see what the efficiency was. The downside is added intial cost, cost of fuel & installation complexity. Running gas lines, vents, and it still needs electric run to it anyways. On the plus side would be larger BTU outputs available from the gas units. Might be good for some, but I'm just a little guy with shallow pockets!

An electric with a fan does use some power for the fan, but I can't see it using a significant portion worth worrying about.

If you lived close to me, I'd let you try one of these electric units. You might consider buying just 1 and temporarily wiring it up like I did to evaluate. I just have a breaker in my box with 12-2 romex running to the heater hung from my garage door tracks unitil I figure out where I want to run conduit.

I'll probably keep mine, but just focus them in the area I work the most. Then I'll either supplement the air with cube heaters. I might even try a pellet stove someday. I burn wood in the house (woodstove fireplace insert) all winter long, because propane is just so expensive anymore.

Good Luck with your decision!

Dr V

 

[Dragster Racer]

Decisions, decisions! The Dayton I was looking at said 21 amps and needs a 30 amp breaker. After looking at #8 wire, I realize I am spoiled working with 12-2 romex. I would like to continue to be spoiled! The radient pack you went with is more expensive, but maybe more efficient and spreads the heat out better. Argg! I need to finish the ceiling anyhow. Time for thinking.

 

[Dragster Racer]

What about the element life on the radients? Can you use them to heat the garage all the time? And how long would the elements last at that usage?

 

[vinculum]

Well A good friend on mine stopped by to let me know his thoughts. He said the top of his head was warm, but the rest of his body wasn't really comfortable. He prefers hot air to get the hands warmed up and moving. This reinforces my initial impressions. I'm at a standstill now while my wheels are spinning. Back to painting for now!

My friend later says, "I know what your problem is. You built too big of a f****** garage!"

I think he has garage envy.

Dr V