Electric vs Gas Infrared/Radiant Heaters

[tboltkc]

I just got these infrared heaters today. It's already cold in MO so I want to get them installed pretty soon. My problem is I wired my shop myself, but I am not an electrician. So I was bummed to see that none of the items came with wiring instructions. Can someone give me a quick idea of how to wire the contactor panel? It's got 6 of the screw lugs marked L1 through L3 and T1 through T3. I know the L's are for the line in and the T's are for the line out to the heaters, but I am not sure what color wires to hook to each one, is it just red to red, black to black and ground to ground?

And then how does the thermostat get tied in?

Thanks for any help. I'm comfortable doing the hookup if I know what to hookup!

-Travis

 

[tboltkc]

I realized this probably isn't the right forum for this, so I posted in lighting and elecrical: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26016

-Travis

 

[sharkytm]

You lucky folks. I'm paying 20.2 cents/kwh, and $4.10 for propane.

 

[Dragster Racer]

Yikes!! Where the heck are you? That is just robbery.

 

[2NDXRND]

Ahhhhh radiant heat. I love, LOVE it....... when someone else is paying the utility bills! I thought long and hard about the heat for my garage, and LP won out.
The bummer of radiant heat is this, you need to leave it on constantly. It heats the THINGS in your shop, they in their turn, heat the air. Where you win with radaint heat is: Your car, the walls, the slab, YOUR TOOLS and tool box are all 58* (If thats where you set your T-stat) Kinda nice, really. Where you lose is the VERY slow recovery time if you shut your heat down or open the garage door. Ceiling fans with radiant heat are kind of a waste, as there isnt any warm air hanging out at the ceiling! (Dr. V? Remember your buddies head being cold?) You'll get more use from the fans in the summer mo.'s if you plan to cool.
I couldnt justify the cost of heating my garage 24/7 with a radiant heater when I'll only be in it 2, 3 days a week and 6 hrs at a time. (on average) This is something guys forget to consider when thinking about heat. I heat for 12 to 16 hrs. a week......... for radiant heat to function properly, you have to heat 168 hrs a week.
Almost forgot........ radiant heat IS a good excuse to buy stuff, as the more items you heat, the more constant the heat and the more efficient the system becomes.

 

[Everyday]

I agree. I get things warmed up with my fuel oil fired bullet heater. The infrared is great because within n hour or so they start to heat me, which works out well.

I don't have gas at my place so my choices are oil or electric. Propane is to expensive around here. The combo works ok but I wish I could heat it without the bullet, just because of the noise.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I agree that radient works well only for all the time use. But, recovery is pretty good in my experience. I have a buddy with an auto repair shop. Doors open and shut all the time. You feel warm as soon as the heat kicks on, even with the doors open. He added ceilling fans, and it really did help get the heat down off the ceiling. Yes you are heating objects, but then those objects heat the air, and that hot air tends toward the ceiling.

 

[2NDXRND]

I agree that radient works well only for all the time use. But, recovery is pretty good in my experience. I have a buddy with an auto repair shop. Doors open and shut all the time. You feel warm as soon as the heat kicks on, even with the doors open. He added ceilling fans, and it really did help get the heat down off the ceiling. Yes you are heating objects, but then those objects heat the air, and that hot air tends toward the ceiling.

.......... and I'm sure your buddy has ALOT of items in his shop. As I said, the more in the shop, the better. Maybe I wasnt clear............ I was directly addressing one of Dr. V's thoughts of a ceiling fan helping with heat distribution in HIS work space. If you have an empty space and radiant heat, you will get no benefit from a ceiling fan. That was my point.
Im NOT busting on radiant heat, I DO like it. I considered it for my shop, just couldnt justify the cost of running it in my situation.

 

[sparky1562]

I think radiant is great for spot heating, like over the workbench, but not for general heating in the garage.
IMHO, you need forced air in a garage that is not heated all the time.
Now a radiant heated floor would be real nice, if you could afford to keep it warm all the time!
I am thinking about buying a couple of these Fostoria 3KW units, but going with something else for the general heating.

 

[sharkytm]

Yikes!! Where the heck are you? That is just robbery.

Cape Cod, MA. We pay the highest electrical rates in the continental US, even though there's a power plant on-Cape, and the Pilgrim Nuke plant 10 minutes away. Its BS. We're up to 21.1c/kwh right now.

And the richy rich morons have fought CapeWind tooth and nail. Why would they care, they can afford to pay $1/kwh. Its the rest of us unlucky fools that live here that get screwed.

 

[bookman51]

So, after a couple of months, what do you think of your overhead infared/radiant heaters? Both as to heating effectiveness and cost to run.

Bookman

 

[redsky49]

Based on national average propane, natural gas, and electric costs: natural gas is least expensive to run, followed by electric, then propane.

FUEL / ENERGY CONTENT / UNIT PRICE / HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY / COST PER MILLION BTU / COST PER HOUR (100,000 BTU/HR)

Propane 92,000 BTU/gal $3.00 /gal 80% $40.76 $4.08
Natural Gas 100,000 BTU/therm $1.54 /therm* 80% $19.25 $1.93
Electricity - 3,412 BTU/kWh $0.10 /kWh** 100% $29.31 $2.93

I didn't read every post in this thread so I apologize if this has been already covered.

The number given above for electrical heat output is correct as far as it goes but does not include heat pumps. For mild(er) climates, the heat pump will produce anywhere from 2.0 to 3.5 times the heat output compared to resistance heat. This is indicated by the C.O.P. (coefficient of performance) data provided for each unit. Plus you have the option to operate the unit in cooling mode, something that is difficult, though not impossible with gas.

Heat pumps aren't the best choice for North Dakota (though earth-coupled devices may work), but will be an affordable option for many.

Offered only as opinion

 

[krooser]

I have a gas-fired radiant tube heater in my shop...80,000 btu (too big IMHO). It costs me $60.00 to $90.00 per month if I keep the t-stat at 40 deg when it's empty and 70 degrees when I'm out there working.

(A few years ago I got cocky and kept it at 70 everyday... all day... $325.00 gas bill! Ouch!)

Nothing freezes... and the shop warms up in 10 minutes when I hit the t-stat.

Toasty!

 

[bookman51]

What about the electric radiant heat...which started this thread. How is it working out?

Bookman

 

[Dragster Racer]

I have a gas-fired radiant tube heater in my shop...80,000 btu (too big IMHO). It costs me $60.00 to $90.00 per month if I keep the t-stat at 40 deg when it's empty and 70 degrees when I'm out there working.

(A few years ago I got cocky and kept it at 70 everyday... all day... $325.00 gas bill! Ouch!)

Nothing freezes... and the shop warms up in 10 minutes when I hit the t-stat.

Toasty!

Wow! What a huge difference! How big of a shop? That is like the poster child for set back thermostats in a home!

 

[2LTim]

I plan on using these for the front of my 60x40 insulated garage to heat the bay I work on cars and my workbench/tool area. I hadn't realized electric was cheaper than propane at this point. I'm currently paying 6.6 cents/Kwh in Pennsylvania. I know its going up very soon hopefully not too much. I've mulled over lots of heating options, and radiant electric has many benefits I wanted except cost to operate, but after running the numbers its not that bad at all.
Dr V[/QUOTE]

Here in Iowa, if you have a totally electric home, which I do, MidAmerican Energy gives you a "preferred" electric rate 9 months of the year, June - August are at the prevailing rate. The normal rate here is at 6.6 cents/kwh, but I pay 4.7 for the discounted 9 months.
Tim

 

[bookman51]

Still like to hear how the overhead electric infrared/radiant heater are working...costs...warming things up...how quickly, etc.

Did the calculations and the electric looks pretty competitive here, plus easier to install.

Bookman

 

[bookman51]

I went in and talked with the local power company rep. To run three of the Fosteria 3,000 watt fixtures in my shop would cost about 50 cents an hour total. Propane is running about $1.55 in the area. Electricity is 6 cent for KWh---after the minimum, which I go over now.

Now 30,000 BTU (10,000 BTU each) will not heat the shop to t-shirt weather, but should do okay. I might supplement it with a bullet heater to warm up the air. And is electricty is cheaper than propane. In the short run perhaps cheaper then natural gas since the natural gas line would have to be run about quarter mile, plus a month minimum bill whether I used it or not.

Of course, to put it in context, my entire house (which is all electric) electric bill is average about 10 cents per hour per month year around. So, if I user the infrared heat a lot, it will be noticable on my billl.

Bookman

 

[zz3k39]

Based on national average propane, natural gas, and electric costs: natural gas is least expensive to run, followed by electric, then propane.

FUEL / ENERGY CONTENT / UNIT PRICE / HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY / COST PER MILLION BTU / COST PER HOUR (100,000 BTU/HR)

Propane 92,000 BTU/gal $3.00 /gal 80% $40.76 $4.08
Natural Gas 100,000 BTU/therm $1.54 /therm* 80% $19.25 $1.93
Electricity - 3,412 BTU/kWh $0.10 /kWh** 100% $29.31 $2.93

*********************

In this quote above....these are good solid facts. It is easily shown that natural gas is by far the cheapest way to heat. I have known that for many years. And with the fact that natural gas prices are falling drastically with a natural gas glut in the market , it will remain that way for decades. Shipping countries are converting trucks to run on natural gas and many new natural gas distribution centers are being built to distribute the natural gas out to the rest of the country - gearing up for the excess supply. The USA has such a huge oversuppy, that they are converting freighters (ships) to distribute it world-wide. You will start to see more and more natural gas cars make their way to market. Right now you can buy natural gas kits for cars...to burn natural gas instead of gasoline. It is a worthy investment and will pay for itself in 1-3 years.
As for the facts above.....it shows natural gas is the clear winner....but that is not even the best scenario. If you note....the efficiency for natural gas was only 80% compared to electric at 100%. An 80% efficiency natural gas furnace would have to be an older furnace. Now they have natural gas furnaces that output at 90-96% efficiency. That would make the comparisons even more dramatic in favor of natural gas. In reality...it isn't even a race as to which is better. I have converted my houses to a moderate 92% efficient natural gas forced air furnace which used a pvc (plastic) vent. But even with that very efficient furnace,...I have added two natural gas infared unvented, wall mounted heaters to my upstairs apartment. They are 99.9% efficient. It will blow away even my nat. gas forced air furnace at 92% efficiency. These nat. gas infared heaters are the way to go. If you don't have natural gas...then it looks like you are forced to use electric (according to the facts above). I have a bullet heater for my garage and it uses propane like crazy. Thats expensive. Propane gives off water vapors as part of the combustion process of propane gas. That will cause sweating on windows and such. Far too many people think that electric edenpure heaters are the way to go and they are dead wrong. Electric heat is far too expensive because electricity is expensive compared to natural gas. Good luck all!