Electrical Box - Neutral Bus Bar Question

[Hillyard]

Hello,

I got around to running the wire for a couple direct wired outlets in the garage and all I have to do is drop the wire down into the main box. However, I had a couple questions.

This is the main panel and it's a Square D QOC40U.

I have room for the additional breakers but need to add the neutral bus bar on the left. I thought the circuits on the right need to go to the right bus bar and vice versus. Would I just add a much larger bus bar on the right and then add a bus bar to the left?

I plan on adding 2x 20 single pole breakers for 2 direct wired outlets and a 1double pole direct wired 30 amp breaker for my 3 hp air compressor.

I saw a single pole breaker as seen below that the wire was looped around. That's not up to code is it? I had the house inspected and an electrician came out to clean some wiring installations up prior to buying the house. He stated everything was okay but did some pretty messy wiring in the attic so I should have questioned his ability.

Thanks,
Zach

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Thats the same panel I have in my house. The left and right ground/neutral bars are all connected to each other and across the panel via a strap that runs under everything else. It does not matter which bar your grounds and neutrals are landed on, since this is a main panel. The only issue is to not have more than one wire under a screw, if...... its a neutral. You can have two grounds under one screw, but a ground and neutral or two neutrals cannot share a screw.

I hate that panel, its a bear to work in. I'm surprised the inspector didn't mention all of those romex wires coming thru one hole in the middle....... that is not code at all, but apparently fairly commonly done.

Pair up some of your grounds and that will free up a few holes/screws for the new grounds and neutrals.

Charles

 

[Hillyard]

Thats the same panel I have in my house. The left and right ground/neutral bars are all connected to each other and across the panel via a strap that runs under everything else. It does not matter which bar your grounds and neutrals are landed on, since this is a main panel. The only issue is to not have more than one wire under a screw, if...... its a neutral. You can have two grounds under one screw, but a ground and neutral or two neutrals cannot share a screw.

I hate that panel, its a bear to work in. I'm surprised the inspector didn't mention all of those romex wires coming thru one hole in the middle....... that is not code at all, but apparently fairly commonly done.

Pair up some of your grounds and that will free up a few holes/screws for the new grounds and neutrals.

Charles

Hey thanks for the advice. Do you have a manual that came with yours? It's pre internet days and I can't locate one online.

Ya I know, the inspector missed a lot of things, I have had to do clean up on a lot of things around the house. :/ It's coming along though.

All those wires running down the middle are in a piece of PVC conduit that goes up to the eve in the attic. The thing is packed.

I was j/c if rather than doubling up grounds, would it be okay to add a small bus bar on the left where it looks like one should be installed?

 

[NormBourne]

Do the right and safest thing, get yourself an electrician.....!!!

Norm.

 

[Aceman]

Pair up some of your grounds and that will free up a few holes/screws for the new grounds and neutrals.

That's the way to do it.

It's hard to tell from photos but if you have any neutrals/grounds in the same hole, now is the time to correct it. Kill the main first. Then put each neutral wire in a hole by itself. You can put two ground wires in the same hole under one screw. After that's finished see how many holes that leaves you. You most likely won't need to add another ground bar.

 

[Hillyard]

That's the way to do it.

Done! I doubled up on same size grounds and everything went perfect. Didn't end up needing a new bus bar after all. I straightened a few things out and shop vac'd the bottom out. Had the just enough spots when everything was said and done

Now it's time to start fixing the drywall. Oye.

I hate that panel, its a bear to work in.
Charles

I understand what you mean now.

 

[Norcal]

Square D is overrated & overpriced, IMO.

 

[Alchymist]

Just curious - in pic #1, breakers #3, 6, and 10 have red wires, yet are on single breakers - are they part of a 3 conductor romex cable? Kind of hard to tell in all that spaghetti.

 

[Rookie2]

Square D used to have a stair step 2nd bus bar kit that will mount above the origional buss bar.

BTW: Is that green ground on the right buss bar have the insulation under the screw ? ?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Square D used to have a stair step 2nd bus bar kit that will mount above the origional buss bar.

He already has the "bleacher seat" bus bars on each side.

Charles

 

[theoldwizard1]

What did you do about the 2 hots under 1 screw in pic #4 ?

The simple and legal thing to do is, remove the 2 wires, splice them in with a pigtail that goes under the breaker screw.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

What did you do about the 2 hots under 1 screw in pic #4 ?

The simple and legal thing to do is, remove the 2 wires, splice them in with a pigtail that goes under the breaker screw.

Square D QO breakers are supposed to have a plate under the screw, and it has two notches for wires. Two wires are legal on a Square D QO breaker.

Charles

 

[Hillyard]

He already has the "bleacher seat" bus bars on each side.

Charles

Well, that's the thing, I'm missing the left top bus bar for some reason.

Square D used to have a stair step 2nd bus bar kit that will mount above the origional buss bar.

BTW: Is that green ground on the right buss bar have the insulation under the screw ? ?

No, it was an optical illusion, it was on the bottom ground.

Where can I get the bus bar that goes on the top left?

 

[Norcal]

Square D QO breakers are supposed to have a plate under the screw, and it has two notches for wires. Two wires are legal on a Square D QO breaker.

Charles

15 & 20A, yes, perhaps on a 30A.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Well, that's the thing, I'm missing the left top bus bar for some reason.

Where can I get the bus bar that goes on the top left?

I missed that. I would think a Square D ground bar from the big box stores would do just fine. They have bars of various lengths hanging from pegs in the electrical section next to the breakers.

Charles

 

[ddawg16]

What is that blue wire for that is bonded to the neut/gnd bar?

 

[Hillyard]

I missed that. I would think a Square D ground bar from the big box stores would do just fine. They have bars of various lengths hanging from pegs in the electrical section next to the breakers.

Charles

Oh ok, cool. I found that a square d 9 will align with the box holes. It only adds 8 slots but I don't plan on adding anything else, maybe an extra motion sensor light outside the utility door.

What is that blue wire for that is bonded to the neut/gnd bar?

It's a greenish blue and is pigtailed with some other grounds. I'm guessing it was done when the sun porch was added on. I'm not sure but I thought it looked out of place too.

 

[Alchymist]

Just curious - in pic #1, breakers #3, 6, and 10 have red wires, yet are on single breakers - are they part of a 3 conductor romex cable? Kind of hard to tell in all that spaghetti.

Still wondering.....

 

[Hillyard]

Still wondering.....

They are but why would they be wired like that?

 

[Alchymist]

Just curious - in pic #1, breakers #3, 6, and 10 have red wires, yet are on single breakers - are they part of a 3 conductor romex cable? Kind of hard to tell in all that spaghetti.

They are but why would they be wired like that?

If it's three wire romex, it is a "multi-wire branch circuit", and the breakers need either a handle tie or a ganged breaker.

210.4(B), “Disconnecting Means,” of NEC 2011 states:

“(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multi-wire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.”

 

[Norcal]

If it's three wire romex, it is a "multi-wire branch circuit", and the breakers need either a handle tie or a ganged breaker.

210.4(B), “Disconnecting Means,” of NEC 2011 states:

“(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multi-wire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.”[/QUOTE]

That is a addition to more recent NEC editions, before the requirement was added single pole breakers were normal, AND code requirements are not retroactive. But it is damn important to see that the conductors of a multiwire circuit are not on the same leg in the panel.

 

[Alchymist]

If it's three wire romex, it is a "multi-wire branch circuit", and the breakers need either a handle tie or a ganged breaker.

210.4(B), “Disconnecting Means,” of NEC 2011 states:

“(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multi-wire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.”[/QUOTE]

That is a addition to more recent NEC editions, before the requirement was added single pole breakers were normal, AND code requirements are not retroactive. But it is damn important to see that the conductors of a multiwire circuit are not on the same leg in the panel.

My old 1999 code book says the same - handle ties or ganged breaker. Don't have any older book - don't know when it was specified.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

My 2008 book says "where a multi-wire branch circuit supplies more than one device or equipment ON THE SAME YOKE, a means shall be provided to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors supplying these devices or equipment at the point where the branch circuit originates." This paragraph is marked with a bar on the left side to indicate it was a revision from previous code.

My 2008 book says the same as the 2011 book.

MWBC must supply only line to neutral loads (120v) with the exception that if the circuit only supplies ONE load or device, then it does not have to comply with the line to neutral only restriction (ie. a 4 wire clothes dryer circuit is an example of a single device that has both line to neutral and line to line loads).

You might go back an re read the '99 code book.

Charles

 

[Alchymist]

My 2008 book says "where a multi-wire branch circuit supplies more than one device or equipment ON THE SAME YOKE, a means shall be provided to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors supplying these devices or equipment at the point where the branch circuit originates." This paragraph is marked with a bar on the left side to indicate it was a revision from previous code.

My 2008 book says the same as the 2011 book.

MWBC must supply only line to neutral loads (120v) with the exception that if the circuit only supplies ONE load or device, then it does not have to comply with the line to neutral only restriction (ie. a 4 wire clothes dryer circuit is an example of a single device that has both line to neutral and line to line loads).


You might go back an re read the '99 code book.

Charles

Basically what the '99 code says. The discussion was not about line to neutral loads, it was about the breakers needing handle ties. And, we don't know what the circuits are for in the OP. Not trying to argumentative or obtuse, but it seems to me handle ties are needed at least as far back as '99?