Electrical Code Question Concerning Outlets and Sheetrock Compound

[-Brent-]

Hey fellas,

I'm in the process of fixing the "mistakes" of the drywall guy. It's total **** work and it burns me more and more each time I dig a little deeper.

Anyhow, I've got outlets and switches that have/had been nearly mudded over and I'm wondering if this is actually a code violation. I'm to the point where I'm nearly finished fixing the work, which meant removing almost all of his work and redoing it. But still, I'm wondering.

I'm not familiar with the extensiveness of the NEC but it must be a violation if a switch or outlet cannot be easily removed from the its box, no?

Here are some of the pics. Enjoy.

 

[pattenp]

The devices should not have been installed until after the drywall was finished. You need to clean out the mud. The only NEC requirement I know of is the box cannot be set back too far as to leave a gap between the front edge of the box and the drywall.

 

[-Brent-]

This was his repair job. Some of the mud you're looking at isn't even related to the switch hole. Rather, it's from something he filled a foot away. The guy buggered it up good and most of it has since been repaired. These pics are saved. It's pretty common sense to pull the switch and fix the hole, however we're not dealing with a common sense guy.

I figured there was some sort of rule about having switches/outlets being removable and not prevented in any way from being so for serviceability reasons.

 

[moserjj]

I would carefully cut the mud out, remove the devices and then clean out the box of mud. then shim your devices so they are flush with the wall or get some box extenders if they are really deep. I've used washers, nuts, etc to shim outlets and switches flush with the wall and I only learned that from watching an electrician friend do it

 

[Highbeam]

They sell these nifty little plastic fold up thigs that work great at shimming the outlets up to the face of the wall. It is not nice to have the outlet recessed because the wall held the faceplate away nor is it pretty to have the whole faceplate standing off of the wall.

It is pretty important to set the boxes to exactly the proper depth. I would prefer the boxes be a little too far into the stud cavity so that you can shim out using the little green plastic things.

 

[-Brent-]

I would carefully cut the mud out, remove the devices and then clean out the box of mud. then shim your devices so they are flush with the wall or get some box extenders if they are really deep. I've used washers, nuts, etc to shim outlets and switches flush with the wall and I only learned that from watching an electrician friend do it

The Leviton dimmers (5 of them) were TOAST. I ended up removing the switches and extra material and putting in a Carlon PVC box extender. For some others, I removed the patch, replaced the patch and put in a old work single gang box and new switch.

The question isn't about how to repair it. I knew how. I just figured I could save time by having someone do the job while I was at work, making money. Now I'm out time and money.

I'd just really like to see if he violated a code or two. It's been bugging me. Maybe the library has a code book I can take a look at if no GJer has one handy. I just don't want to buy one to find out.

 

[-Brent-]

They sell these nifty little plastic fold up thigs that work great at shimming the outlets up to the face of the wall. It is not nice to have the outlet recessed because the wall held the faceplate away nor is it pretty to have the whole faceplate standing off of the wall.

It is pretty important to set the boxes to exactly the proper depth. I would prefer the boxes be a little too far into the stud cavity so that you can shim out using the little green plastic things.

Guys! The job is nearly done and all repaired. There's almost no trace of his work left.

Hahaha... I shouldn't have included pics yet, you're not reading what I wrote!

I'm wondering if there's a code or a rule that clearly states NOT to do this. This dude says he's been in business 25+ years and operates according to standard practices. I've just NEVER ever seen someone think this is okay and, again, I'm wondering if there is a code, that's all.

 

[MoonRise]

NEC compliant? Not totally sure on the 'fine-print' for that one.

Sloppy as all get-out and poor workmanship? Yup x947.

Just like there are some 'painters' who just paint right over a wall plate, or paint the window sashes together, etc.

Poor workmanship.

How about this one. Saw a switch cover plate partially 'mudded' into place. WTF? They mudded right over half of an existing switch plate.

 

[ishiboo]

Guys! The job is nearly done and all repaired. There's almost no trace of his work left.

Hahaha... I shouldn't have included pics yet, you're not reading what I wrote!

I'm wondering if there's a code or a rule that clearly states NOT to do this. This dude says he's been in business 25+ years and operates according to standard practices. I've just NEVER ever seen someone think this is okay and, again, I'm wondering if there is a code, that's all.

There is no code issue really, as the material is non-combustable. Who removed the wall plates before he started? Was it him or you?

Mud in the box is not a big deal. It happens on many new jobs, you just cut it out. I would rather have them mud over the box than not mud far enough leaving air gaps/etc. around the box.

What bugs me is the fact that the devices themselves have mud on them. On a repair, those need to be covered in painters tape at the least. Dimmers/etc. can get expensive fast, and there's NO REASON to have to replace them. Mud usually falls off things if you give it a little pick but it's a step there's no reason to take. Also, sanding dust is often impossible to get out of the switches/dimmers/receptacles.

Also, his drywall work looks like ****. There are areas which are nowhere near smooth. Was he allowed to finish?

 

[-Brent-]

There is no code issue really, as the material is non-combustable. Who removed the wall plates before he started? Was it him or you?

...

What bugs me is the fact that the devices themselves have mud on them. On a repair, those need to be covered in painters tape at the least. Dimmers/etc. can get expensive fast, and there's NO REASON to have to replace them. Mud usually falls off things if you give it a little pick but it's a step there's no reason to take. Also, sanding dust is often impossible to get out of the switches/dimmers/receptacles.

Also, his drywall work looks like ****. There are areas which are nowhere near smooth. Was he allowed to finish?

No wall plates were on any of the outlets before he started. The electrical upgrade had been completed on this 40's home and it left a sizable patch job. We went from 60 amp to 150. I figured patching is simple enough and the guy gave me a decent impression. Having someone do that work while I wasn't there seemed like a good plan, at the time.

We planned to run dimmers in a few of the rooms but now we're just keeping them in the living room since they were so packed (and his removal of what was on them didn't help) that the rockers didn't work properly and three of them had huge gaps in the slider's operations. It's too expensive for me to replace them, at the moment. A strip of painter's tape would have been simple to do. In fact, I had some sitting on the countertop, available to use.

In the beginning he was allowed to finish, this IS actually what he considers "finished." But him returning didn't make anything better. He wanted texture the walls and, to me, that meant hide work. Eventually, I realized that it was either me redo the work or never live in this house. The short story is that after two months of excuses and story and a few times he showed up to do god-knows-what. I took it into my own hands.

I couldn't leave the work knowing what was hid beneath 3/8-3/4 inches of mud. It took a LOT more work and time but it really shaped up. I should've done it myself from the beginning. I should've trusted my gut.

Eventually, he's wasn not allowed to come back. The locks have been changed and I'm moving on. I've grown a little more fond of mudding, but not much.

 

[-Brent-]

Also, his drywall work looks like ****. There are areas which are nowhere near smooth. Was he allowed to finish?

I could blow your mind with some of the pictures I have of what he left. Un-freaking believable.

 

[Falcon67]

I could blow your mind with some of the pictures I have of what he left. Un-freaking believable.

Nah - take the outlet covers off most new houses and you'll see its minimum code to fill the boxes with spray texture until you can't tell which wire is what. Ours is like that for sure. And I have a live outlet walled up behind the drywall in the master bath. It'll get fixed when we re-do that counter top. House was built in 2001 and it's been like that since then, apparently.

 

[Steevo]

I don't understand why you are blaming the sheetrock guy for 1.) your boxes being set too deep, and 2.) having to work around your installed switches and receptacles?

The boxes should have been set further out and they should have been empty of receptacles and switches when the wall was mudded.

 

[djjsr]

I was thinking the same as Steevo. If the boxes were installed in the right location you may have gotten a better sheetrock job.

 

[-Brent-]

I don't understand why you are blaming the sheetrock guy for 1.) your boxes being set too deep, and 2.) having to work around your installed switches and receptacles?

The boxes should have been set further out and they should have been empty of receptacles and switches when the wall was mudded.

These were/are at the same level with the plasterboard and were installed in 1945/46, except for one, which was installed by the electrician and a straight edge could've been run across the outlet mounting surface to the wall. Before this guy came in to mud, all the covers fit previously. I'm blaming him because, well, he's to blame.

Steevo, you honestly think I should have pulled every outlet and switch for him? I should preface this by saying, I asked him if he needed anything pulled, covered, or otherwise throughout the house. He expressed his commitment to neat and orderly work and said he was good to go and could handle everything. I've had other people do sheetrock and taping for me in the past and I've never come across this.

As well, perhaps you didn't see where some of this stuff wasn't the initial patch are but the patch was a foot away. I hardly think a FLAT surface needs this much material 12" or more from the joint area.

 

[-Brent-]

I was thinking the same as Steevo. If the boxes were installed in the right location you may have gotten a better sheetrock job.

Like I said, these were existing and the outlet covers fit perfectly before the work occurred. These have been in the wall since 1945.

If I put some new work boxes in an uncovered wall and the setback was too much, I could see an issue. The issue I have is not that. This house was very well built (and maintained) by what I'd consider a craftsman. I think the house deserves that same integrity.

 

[-Brent-]

Steevo, you've lit a fire in me, hahaha. Thinking about what you wrote I'll counter with this. I've repaired his work and installed 3/4" worth of sheetrock (two 3/8 pieces) to match the thickness of the plasterboard and the outlets matched up perfectly. There's no more 3/8-3/4" mud all over the place.

I'm not trying to get people to agree with me. I just wanted to know if this was some sort of code violation. I get it, this is the Internet, where some people think it'll look like poo and others - Picasso.

 

[-Brent-]

I don't know.



Just a random patch, which sticks out 1/4" or so.



Nearby patch which leads to one of the above pics. It wasn't fastened in. Just mudded in.



This is another but in the opposite room. These lead up to the excess around other areas.

Okay, I need to go look at the garage gallery, my blood pressure is spiking.

 

[MrMark]

Nah - take the outlet covers off most new houses and you'll see its minimum code to fill the boxes with spray texture until you can't tell which wire is what. Ours is like that for sure. And I have a live outlet walled up behind the drywall in the master bath. It'll get fixed when we re-do that counter top. House was built in 2001 and it's been like that since then, apparently.

Yep. Pretty standard stuff there. Pride of workmanship is a non-existent concept these days.

 

[allinon72]

There is NO excuse for finish work that sloppy. Just because the boxes are a little deep and the outlets are still in there does not mean you slop mud over everything.

 

[gatchel]

If you discussed it before hand and he was OK with devices in the boxes, he failed to meet his end of the deal. Therefore he is a d!(k.

As mentioned before quality is almost a thing of the past. I almost never pay anyone to do anything anymore. If it's gonna be f'ed up, I can do that...without paying someone.

 

[-Brent-]

If you discussed it before hand and he was OK with devices in the boxes, he failed to meet his end of the deal. Therefore he is a d!(k.

As mentioned before quality is almost a thing of the past. I almost never pay anyone to do anything anymore. If it's gonna be f'ed up, I can do that...without paying someone.

Yeah, there was a discussion, a contract, and then his own handwritten agreement.

There were other patch areas where paper/tape shows. Other areas where paper wasn't secured. He filled in overhead light box in the utility room (that had wiring in them) and the dryer vent hole.

There was compound on the molding from a joint 26" away.

Hopefully, this weekend I'll be finished fixing all the patching. This job started in November.

Ah well, live and learn.

 

[Zeke]

As a 40 year veteran of the home improvement and remodeling business (dully licensed) I agree that it is more difficult to mud around devices set, but not impossible. Sometimes pulling the devices out of the box and leaving them wired helps.

This is an example of why I'm ashamed of the work that is being produced today. We've always had bad examples in the trades, but journeymen generally wouldn't put up with ****, even from other trades.

I just keep my tools around now to do any work that needs to be done at home. I am looking for work, but I won't do what I did for 40 years because of what the reputation has become. It's that bad nowadays.

 

[Delta74]

I agree, either nothing wired, or if you must wire, leave sticking out of the box, and wrap the screws with tape so you or the low life scum sucking hired from the bar drywall and mud idiot does not get a shock, ( yes I am an electrician, yes hate dealing with idiot mudders, give me the retired has pride in work guy anyday PLEASE ) and after the mud is dry go back and cut the mud out of the boxes, wait for paint, then install and cover. soon as he said installed was no problem, that should have thrown up caution flags.

On the lighter side, had guys board right over boxes on us before on a 80 foot wall, my foreman grabbed my hammer and went looking for the boxes, you can imagine what the wall looked like by the time they were found

Anyway good luck on the job and show up pics of the finished job.

 

[-Brent-]

Well... I did figure that anything that needed to be pulled out or removed would have been done. Or at the very least I would've done it. At least, that was what I was lead to believe. I mean, this guy and I had a long conversation before the start of the job. Of course, some of the covered stuff wasn't located near the acutal drywall seems and therefore added to my befuddlement.

And Zeke, I hear ya. I should've done it myself. I'm still kicking myself over it, even though my wife insists I shouldn't. I guess it's being lied to, then coming to the house and seeing this type of stuff that really got me.

Delta, thanks for chuckle. I have a feeling that no matter how I prepped the job for him it would've ended up the same.

I mean, these are areas just needed patches. No obstructions.

 

[hidollartoys]

Was this guy the low bidder????????

 

[Milton Shaw]

You might want to reconsider the dimmer idea. The CFL bulbs cannot work on a dimmer and that is about all you can buy now and will be the only ones available except LED (real expensive) in the future.

 

[walrus]

You might want to reconsider the dimmer idea. The CFL bulbs cannot work on a dimmer and that is about all you can buy now and will be the only ones available except LED (real expensive) in the future.

You can buy CFLs that will work with a dimmer

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/d...luorescents/?gclid=CLH94sPClq4CFUff4AodyU3rHg

 

[-Brent-]

Was this guy the low bidder????????

I wish he was... hahaha. No, he was in line with the others as far as cost.

You might want to reconsider the dimmer idea. The CFL bulbs cannot work on a dimmer and that is about all you can buy now and will be the only ones available except LED (real expensive) in the future.

We have dimmable CFLs. They're okay from what I can tell. I got a decent deal on them before the holidays. However, I'm going to put 6 LEDs in our living room since this will be one of the most-used rooms and I've got a colleague that bought too many of them and has them sitting in his closet. At half the price it'll be worth it.

 

[green.bubbly]

This is exactly why I am trying to do everything myself. I would rather it look like **** because I did versus it looking like **** and I paid somebody to do it.

 

[Steevo]

Having seen your later posts and pics, I see where you might have issues with the original work.
I retract what I said earlier.

 

[-Brent-]

This is exactly why I am trying to do everything myself. I would rather it look like **** because I did versus it looking like **** and I paid somebody to do it.

Well, I have a nice update to share. My dad took some vacation time and flew out from CT to help me get ahead (or at least catch up). So, for four FULL days we attacked an ambitious to-do list, which totalled four pages.

It was awesome to be working along side him as he and I have similar regard for craftsmanship. He did an AMAZING job fixing a lot of this drywaller's work. I'll snap some photos tonight to share with you guys. It now looks the way I envisioned it looking back in November. We had a great time, too. I'm a lucky man, for sure.

In 4 days we knocked out nearly three pages of the to-do list. We laughed that some of the tasks listed with only three or four words ended up being huge projects while the sentence long task took a half hour.

Having seen your later posts and pics, I see where you might have issues with the original work.
I retract what I said earlier.

You're a good guy Steevo.

 

[hdshinn]

As for your actual question - regarding removal of devices vs code requirement(s) - there's actually nothing to prevent removal of the devices you've pictured. Just cut out the compound, take out the screws and out comes the device.

Is it sloppy work? No argument there! Best to chalk it up to 'lesson learned'. I gotta hand it to ya if you're able to fix that stuff.

 

[-Brent-]

As for your actual question - regarding removal of devices vs code requirement(s) - there's actually nothing to prevent removal of the devices you've pictured. Just cut out the compound, take out the screws and out comes the device.

Is it sloppy work? No argument there! Best to chalk it up to 'lesson learned'. I gotta hand it to ya if you're able to fix that stuff.

I can't believe I didn't post up my results of my question. Sorry about that guys!


On the pictured outlets that's true. The switch (plus two others not pictured), however, has a strip of tape covered by compound covered by tape and so on.

I had a conversation with a professional electrician whom spent some time as an inspector. He was able to point out from the photos (a bunch of them not shown here) that these two NEC codes would be in violation during an inspection. Had an inpector to come through I could've failed, is what he said.

The codes referenced are:

NEC 314.25 & 410.22 In a completed installation, all outlet boxes shall have a cover, lamp-holder, canopy for a luminaire, or device with an appropriate cover plate.

(The cover plates not fitting would fail me.)

NEC 314.29 Junction boxes shall be installed so that
the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building.

(I never posted a pic of these on this thread but these junction boxes were similar to the switch that was taped over, leaving them inaccessible.)

Thankfully these were easy fixes. It was mostly taking time to undo some of the work and redo it back to what it was before the "finish" work.

Now, would this fail most people? Maybe, maybe not. I guess it depends on the inspector. The man I spoke to, said it could've gone either way but the gap in the covers and the junction boxes filled with tape and compound were the biggest red flags.

 

[MrMark]

The electrical code also has a provision for "workmanship". I believe the work shown would have failed that. The mud covering the wires would also be a violation for sure.

The problem is that the drywall guys cannot cut the outlets out with any level of precision and they basically end up just smearing mud up to the boxes to fill. That is why I use metal boxes and the rotozip to ensure that I can precisely cut out the hole around the box.

The plastic boxes cannot take the rotozip riding along the edge of the box; it just eats them up.

The supplier I use sells me 4S deep boxes and the mud ring for around 1.50, as opposed to Home Depots price of almost 5 dollars for the combination. Compared to Home Depot, the electrical suppliers are cheaper on some things, but not others, this is one of those things.

The metal box is just so superior to terms of quality of installation for stability and securement of wires. It can be retapped if the device screws become stripped and with the different mud ring options and wiring types it can take, it is much more flexible.

 

[6768rogues]

I have seen work like that before. I turn off the power, dig the **** loose, then blow it out with an air hose. I am working on my son's house and prewired two rooms with the wires roughed into the boxes, coiled up and pushed to the back of the boxes. I went back to do finish wiring and the drywall guys had run their zip tool through the side of the plastic box and chopped the wires off in three locations. If I see them, I am going to kick their asses until their noses bleed.

 

[-Brent-]

I have seen work like that before. I turn off the power, dig the **** loose, then blow it out with an air hose. I am working on my son's house and prewired two rooms with the wires roughed into the boxes, coiled up and pushed to the back of the boxes. I went back to do finish wiring and the drywall guys had run their zip tool through the side of the plastic box and chopped the wires off in three locations. If I see them, I am going to kick their asses until their noses bleed.

I hate knowing that the guy I had isn't the only one out there. Man, I don't get it. It's not like the work is difficult.



Case in point, here's one of the outlets previously pictured. It's been sanded down to match the wall level. Granted it took some extra time due to the nearly 1/2 inch of excess material. But now a cover fits and a straight edge can be run across it without any gaps.

 

[proximo]

The actual products shouldn't happen to be set up till following the sheet-rock had been completed........you will have to re do it..

 

[JimVonBaden]

This is exactly why I am trying to do everything myself. I would rather it look like **** because I did versus it looking like **** and I paid somebody to do it.

Same here. I can screw it up at least as bad as a pro, and maybe it will even look better.

Jim

 

[djjsr]

Just a tip for the do-it-yourselfers ........

When you are thinking about where to put switches and outlets, consider where the drywall seams will be and try not to put a box on a seam. Move one or the other.