Electrical code question

[sickboi55]

My wife and I recently moved into our first home. I am looking at upgrading the main panel. It is from an older company that I cannot find breakers for and I want to add a 100 amp sub panel to the garage. My question is about the main feeder. The current panel is 150 amps fed by XHHW 4/0-4/0-2/0. According to NEC table 310.15 (b)(16) this cable can support 205 amps under the 90c column. So the questions is can I install a 200 amp panel with this feeder? The feeder is ran through the garage attic space, with a total run of about 60ft. It is not in any conduit or raceway.

 

[sberry]

Legally it probably would need an outside disconnect if its not near where it enters the building from the meter. It is also only 3 conductor and must be a cable then?
BTW,,,,,,,,,, during this assessment take a little look outside the box in relation to old installations. One of the reasons to do a service upgrade may be to modernize location and feeds etc. In some case,,, may put a new 200 main outdoor with feed thru or breaker spaces, move some load or go to garage from a new service etc.
There is a huge amount of latitude in an upgrade. Better, maybe cheaper mabe more and way better. Most code legal installations work, not all are designed as good as they can be.
I did a major of my own and worked with the poco to change the incoming. Just did one where I didn't even consult, simply replaced a typical and most practical and it didn't require redesign on their behalf.
I am doing one next month with re design but it will fall in to typical and almost identical to the one next door. Wont require engineering.

 

[pattenp]

If on 2011 NEC, for the service entrance cable you use Table 310.15(B)(7).

 

[sberry]

I was curious if I read this right that this is the main 60 ft inside a structure or if there was an outside disconnect?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My wife and I recently moved into our first home. I am looking at upgrading the main panel. It is from an older company that I cannot find breakers for and I want to add a 100 amp sub panel to the garage. My question is about the main feeder. The current panel is 150 amps fed by XHHW 4/0-4/0-2/0. According to NEC table 310.15 (b)(16) this cable can support 205 amps under the 90c column. So the questions is can I install a 200 amp panel with this feeder? The feeder is ran through the garage attic space, with a total run of about 60ft. It is not in any conduit or raceway.

First off wire is NOT sized by the 90* column.

Second as pattenp pointed out, service entrance wire is sized using 310.15(b)(7)...

So yes your 4/0 AL wire is good for 200a service...

Third, what kind of wire is it? IF SER/SEU, then its fine to be ran like that. However on the outside by your meter do u have a disconnect? U usually cant run service entrance wire that far unfused...

Can u post a pic?

 

[sickboi55]

I will get some pics. As for the type it is XHHW. The wire exits the meter and goes through the attic above the garage and the guest bedroom then goes into the main panel in the kitchen.

 

[volleyball]

Do you need to buy some Federal Pacific Breakers?


If new, quality breakers are not available then it is best to replace the panel. I like all new but there are kits to replace the guts and cover only.

 

[sickboi55]

Here are some pictures. The service comes to the weather head and into the wall. It goes down the inner wall to the meter then back up from the meter through the attic into the panel located in the kitchen.
Outside:

Inside garage, other side of wall in last pic:

Panel in kitchen:

 

[sickboi55]

If my current feeder will support 200 amps, that leaves a couple of options. I can replace the main panel so I can put a 100 amp breaker in for the subpanel in the garage. Or I could put a panel in the garage near the meter with a 150 breaker to feed the panel in the kitchen. Is feeding the main panel from a panel in the garage an acceptable install?

 

[Speedy Petey]

So your home inspector did not let you know what an unbelievable mess you have there???

A) As pointed out, with the panel/main disconnect that far into the house you MUST have a main disconnect near the meter.

B) There is NO WAY you'll pass an inspection with the panel in that cabinet over the counter. This is an amazing example of hack work and lack of inspections.

Address these issues BEFORE doing any other electrical work in this house.

 

[sberry]

his is a poster child for a new service with a 200main and main lug feed thru if you need 200 all the way in to the house. If you want the basic entrance design similar, (poco engineering) could come in underground or relocate the service etc but feed it all from a new outside service disconnect. You may even be able to relocate some load, maybe not practical but would likely set a new service beside this, be a one shot hookup for the poco.
New sub for the garage right on other side of wall.

You could mount a new service inside there back of the meter. There are several design options you can entertain with new. If you could live with 100 from the original panel you could actually do this with 1 new 40 space interior which would be the cheapest.

 

[sberry]

Like a lot of guys here I might add an extra piece or have doe some of our own earlier in our careers but if I was selling this on any kind of price would have to look at the last option I listed, new 40 in the wall in the garage, feed the new tools from it and go back and over to the old service. The drawback with this scheme is one is limited to 100 and most feed thrus don't have all that many extra spaces. SD most popular like this has 8 which you can do.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If my current feeder will support 200 amps, that leaves a couple of options. I can replace the main panel so I can put a 100 amp breaker in for the subpanel in the garage. Or I could put a panel in the garage near the meter with a 150 breaker to feed the panel in the kitchen. Is feeding the main panel from a panel in the garage an acceptable install?

As speedy pointed out, u have a number of SERIOUS issues.

That main panel in the cabinet is a a BIG NO NO! I know code allowed panels to be in closets up until the mid 70's. But for obvious reasons, that was changed(many house fires from Zinsco panels in coat closets.

When was your house built?

Doing any work on that panel is gonna require/force u to bring it upto current code which means ripping it out and moving it!

Whats on the other side of that wall the panel is in? If it were mine, I would DEFINITELY move it.

The next issue is the unfused service entrance wire.

If it were mine, i would swap the meter pan out for a main service panel with a few disconnects. Then u could feed your garage and the panel in the kitchen(after u move it).

The main panel in the kitchen would become a subpanel and you would have to convert it, meaning isolate the neutral bar and either change the wire if SER 3-wire(which is what your describing/u cant add a separate conductor for a circuit fed by a jacketed cable) or add an insulated wire if the service entrance wire is individual conductors(which SHOULD be in conduit)...

 

[sickboi55]

The house "passed" inspection and we have closed. I am now living in the home. I dont NEED 200 into the house. I just want 100 in the garage and I cannot find breakers for the current main panel. sberry, are you saying that i can add a disconnect in the garage and use that as a sub panel too?

 

[sickboi55]

The house was built in 1982. The living room is on the other side of the wall that the panel is in.
So I could use this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ance-Device-SC816D200C/100010108?N=5yc1vZbm1b
and put a 150 amp breaker in to feed the house and a 100 amp breaker to feed another box in the garage? or would the garage feed direct from this panel?

 

[sberry]

You could put a new main in the garage. wylie and I say the same thing just come at it differently.

 

[sickboi55]

Sorry if am not catching on quickly. So the new main would fill the need for a disconnect near the meter, and the new main would have all the garage circuits and a breaker to feed the old main/now sub panel in the house? Could i just use the box listed above? Would it need a separate box in the garage?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes u could put a panel in the garage and use it as your main.

But you would HAVE to change the wire feeding the panel in the cabinet to 4-wire as well as move it out of the cabinet. Any work u do to that panel REQUIRES it to be brought upto current code, which DOES NOT allow it in the cabinet! Subpanels need 4-wire feeders and u only have a 3-wire service entrance cable!

So u could flip the panel around and put it in the livingroom. Make a box to cover it...

That square D u listed would be a waste of money and time because its a meter main. U would have to do extra work to use it in the garage. Also, your local AHJ or fire department may require an outside disconnect!

I would upgrade the meter pan to the panel u listed!

 

[Norcal]

The house "passed" inspection and we have closed. I am now living in the home. I dont NEED 200 into the house. I just want 100 in the garage and I cannot find breakers for the current main panel. sberry, are you saying that i can add a disconnect in the garage and use that as a sub panel too?

That panel is a Crouse-Hinds, which has changed hands & also reverted to it's original name, Murray, the breakers are available at HD, but as others have said the location is not code compliant nor is the excess amount of SE conductor in the house, just a FYI, there is no overcurrent protection such as fuses, or circuit breakers between the secondary of the PoCo transformer & the line side of your main breaker. Moving that panel would be prudent.

 

[sickboi55]

You mention the excess amount of service entrance cable, I dont see a way around that other than the main being in the garage. So to make sure Ive got it straight, I should have a main service disconnect near the meter and the main panel needs to moved if I touch anything on it?

 

[Mustang51js]

What is the painted box under the meter,almost looks like a small disconnect but also looks like a phone box

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You mention the excess amount of service entrance cable, I dont see a way around that other than the main being in the garage. So to make sure Ive got it straight, I should have a main service disconnect near the meter and the main panel needs to moved if I touch anything on it?

There would be no issue with that long of a service entrance cable IF it was fused breakered at the meter...

The panel NEEDS to be moved! It didnt meet code when the house was built and it doesnt meet code now. Not to mention that its dangerous!

As someone said earlier- ITS HACK WORK!

Please fix this, do it right and make it safe. We can help u with advice. Theres a lot of great electricians on here.

It will be a pain but theres no 2 ways about it. That panel NEEDS TO BE MOVED! The easiest would be to flip it around.

What is the painted box under the meter,almost looks like a small disconnect but also looks like a phone box

Looks unmistakenly to me like a phone Demarc. U can see the phone service wire coming down from above. And judging by the coax next to the gray box, id say that box is the demarc for the cable service...

 

[sberry]

All quite a little less risk that driving without a seatbelt.

 

[sickboi55]

The painted box is the phone. What is it that makes it unsafe? I am trying to figure the best way to move it but can't understand why it is bad.

 

[FordTruckWench]

B) There is NO WAY you'll pass an inspection with the panel in that cabinet over the counter. This is an amazing example of hack work and lack of inspections.

Would it pass code if the OP removed the cabinet? The cabinet and counter?

 

[Norcal]

There is no proper working space in front of the panel, with so much unfused SE cable it increases the risk if someone inadvertently drives a screw or nail into it, there will be a nasty short circuit that is not going to quit until some burns clear. It is not defined in the NEC as to how much is allowed, but a lot of areas define it as 5 feet.


SE cable may be code compliant but I am glad it is not on the list in PG&E's greenbook of allowable methods, not allowed in SCE, Southern California Edison, territory either.

 

[bczygan]

The painted box is the phone. What is it that makes it unsafe? I am trying to figure the best way to move it but can't understand why it is bad.

You need to know how electrical codes work.

Each year the code writing authorities collect data on how many deaths and injuries occur, and how.

Then they write requirements to address these issues.

But this is for new work.

Old work is grandfathered.

So if your house has knob and tube, it's still legal until you change things.

Is it safe?

Well, safety is relative. It is still as safe as when it was installed, minus age and wear and damage factors.

But our standards have evolved and improved and become more complex and safer over time.

And then there is the work that was done wrong at the time, and never inspected.

So the advice given here is always to make things as safe as possible. And given that the latest codes do that, then that is what is recommended.

So, where do you stand?

You can choose to make changes with or without inspections. Without inspections, you can do what you like, or whatever your electrical guy will do for you.

You will have to live with the level of safety that exists right now, whatever that is.

But if you want the most available safety, you will follow the latest codes, whether you get permits or not.

And if you follow the codes, why wouldn't you want to get it inspected, just to check it is done right?

Bill

 

[wyliesdiesels]

There is no proper working space in front of the panel, with so much unfused SE cable it increases the risk if someone inadvertently drives a screw or nail into it, there will be a nasty short circuit that is not going to quit until some burns clear. It is not defined in the NEC as to how much is allowed, but a lot of areas define it as 5 feet.

SE cable may be code compliant but I am glad it is not on the list in PG&E's greenbook of allowable methods, not allowed in SCE, Southern California Edison, territory either.

My boss recently experienced the effects of a screw driven into an unfused secondary. The cable kept burning and The fuses on the primary side of the transformer didnt blowout. It didnt stop burning until PG&E came out and pulled the cutouts in the transformer can...And the transformer only fed the single pumping station we were working on.

You need to know how electrical codes work.

Each year the code writing authorities collect data on how many deaths and injuries occur, and how.

Then they write requirements to address these issues.

But this is for new work.

Old work is grandfathered.

So if your house has knob and tube, it's still legal until you change things.

Is it safe?

Well, safety is relative. It is still as safe as when it was installed, minus age and wear and damage factors.

But our standards have evolved and improved and become more complex and safer over time.

And then there is the work that was done wrong at the time, and never inspected.

So the advice given here is always to make things as safe as possible. And given that the latest codes do that, then that is what is recommended.

So, where do you stand?

You can choose to make changes with or without inspections. Without inspections, you can do what you like, or whatever your electrical guy will do for you.

You will have to live with the level of safety that exists right now, whatever that is.

But if you want the most available safety, you will follow the latest codes, whether you get permits or not.

And if you follow the codes, why wouldn't you want to get it inspected, just to check it is done right?

Bill

the way this was done would not have been to code in '82....

And many homeowners insurance policies wont cover Knob + tube wiring...

 

[sickboi55]

I am still unclear as to what the inherent dangers are. The panel is easily accessible.

 

[sberry]

There is no proper working space in front of the panel, with so much unfused SE cable it increases the risk if someone inadvertently drives a screw or nail into it, there will be a nasty short circuit that is not going to quit until some burns clear. It is not defined in the NEC as to how much is allowed, but a lot of areas define it as 5 feet.


SE cable may be code compliant but I am glad it is not on the list in PG&E's greenbook of allowable methods, not allowed in SCE, Southern California Edison, territory either.

I remember reading over it some time ago and as a practical matter they don't want so much unfused but also want to have some idea where the panel is. No one wants a mystery location.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am still unclear as to what the inherent dangers are. The panel is easily accessible.

OMG I guess we havent been clear enough

The panel being in a wooden cabinet besides being hard to work on, is a fire hazard.

The other MAJOR danger is the UNFUSED SE wire from the meter to your panel.

U have NO disconnect if anything should happen. The primary side fuses/bayonets on the transformer arent gonna blow if that SE is shorted...

 

[jpinca]

I get why the un-fused feeder in the attic is dangerous. Honestly I would do something about that immediately. Would a new meter box with a couple of disconnects/breakers be the simplest fix?

I don't exactly understand why the panel location is a pressing safety issue, assuming you leave the cabinet empty. Access is a bit of a PITA so working on the panel hot could be more dangerous for whoever was doing the work. Is that the rationale behind the code?

Sometimes I think the various codes and enforcement can work counter to their intent. Saying "You're grandfathered in, but if you touch anything, you have to bring everything up to current code", may make some people live with a high risk when a minor change could significantly reduce the chances of injury or death.

For the sake of argument, if the OP simply doesn't have the funds to bring the whole system to current, should he just leave the un-fused feeder be?

 

[volleyball]

Just removing the upper should address those who are concerned about its location.
If the cabinet is empty it isn't doing anything productive.
Putting a main on the other side of the meter, and making the existing a sub, may be the quickest, easiest way.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

There is no proper working space in front of the panel, with so much unfused SE cable it increases the risk if someone inadvertently drives a screw or nail into it, there will be a nasty short circuit that is not going to quit until some burns clear. It is not defined in the NEC as to how much is allowed, but a lot of areas define it as 5 feet.


SE cable may be code compliant but I am glad it is not on the list in PG&E's greenbook of allowable methods, not allowed in SCE, Southern California Edison, territory either.

I will clarify this, as I had to read it about three times myself. What Norcal means is that the UNFUSED or UNPROTECTED main feed from the meter socket to the breaker panel has no specific maximum length referenced in the code but most locales generally specify about 5 ft max. I think the code makes some reference to being as short as possible.

As far as panel in the cabinet, I've attached this pic from a reference book that makes it very clear what is needed.

As far as the outside disconnect goes, here is a pic that illustrates the clearances needed at the meter and disconnect. The phone box is a no-no because it is located in this space. Any rework of this would require compliance with current code, and thus moving of the phone box or the meter. I'd move over and install a new meter/disconnect combo panel ON THE SURFACE, and run a mast up with a new weatherhead and then the changeover would be fairly painless when it happens. You would also need to run new four wire to the panel when you turned it around to face the living room that is behind it, but that would require separating grounds and neutrals on different bars and that could be a nightmare itself. That is why I did not do this my on my house. I ended up putting a separate meter/service on my DETACHED shop.

 

[sickboi55]

Wylie, I am unsure if your response was sarcastic or joking. If sarcastic, while you have provided a great deal of information to this thread, please refrain from posting. I understand that my box is not in compliance. I understand that the measurements for working space as outlined by the NEC are not met. What I don't understand is how the location is dangerous. If I don't store any items in the cabinet, the location in regards to fire is the same as moving it to the living room. If it were moved it would still have live wires near the backside of the cabinetry. Again, I see WHAT the NEC says, I just do not understand WHY. This is not to say I don't plan to fix it.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Would it pass code if the OP removed the cabinet? The cabinet and counter?

Yeah.
Who needs a kitchen anyway?

 

[Speedy Petey]

The panel is easily accessible.

It absolutely IS NOT.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Wylie, I am unsure if your response was sarcastic or joking. If sarcastic, while you have provided a great deal of information to this thread, please refrain from posting. I understand that my box is not in compliance. I understand that the measurements for working space as outlined by the NEC are not met. What I don't understand is how the location is dangerous. If I don't store any items in the cabinet, the location in regards to fire is the same as moving it to the living room. If it were moved it would still have live wires near the backside of the cabinetry. Again, I see WHAT the NEC says, I just do not understand WHY. This is not to say I don't plan to fix it.

A) Wylie can post any time and anywhere on the site, sarcastic or not. It's not your place to tell him not to.
Heck, sarcasm is the backbone of the interwebs.

B) It is quite unsafe to anyone working on it more than anything. Another thing is, if the door is left open and a fire occurred what's in the cabinet could very well be considered "easily ignitable material", which is not allowed to be stored near a panel.

 

[sickboi55]

True Wylie can post anywhere anytime, however I started this thread to learn not be judged. And I am not sure I follow the panel not being easily accessible. It is faster to get to than my base housing home where it was in the garage. From a maintenance stand point it is not so accessible.

 

[acer66]

And I am not sure I follow the panel not being easily accessible. It is faster to get to than my base housing home where it was in the garage. From a maintenance stand point it is not so accessible.

It was explained a few times but please reread post #34 which explains why your panel is not considered easily accessible and because of that a safety hazard.