Electrical Fire

[cowboyjosh]

So, ya'll might or might not have heard how Trace Adkins house outside Nashville caught fire and burnt down last weekend; it started in the garage and was a total loss. The cause, was a "electrical fault" a loose or overheated connection in a power strip. This is the 3rd or 4th fire I've heard about within the past year of electrical fires originating in the garage from power strips. I've heard a couple cases in Ohio, Arizona, and Colorado; and now this higher profile case of Trace Adkins house in Nashville.

So whats the consensus of GJ members, how many of ya'll use power strips? Im a builder and a EC and pretty much despise the use of power strips, therefore I only have 1 Wire Mold brand diamond plate strip in my Colorado garage, and thats the only power strip in the entire house. Had I wired the house, I would have added more outlets by my work bench so that I wouldn't have needed the stupid *** power strip.

I also wonder how many of ya'll unplug **** that isn't in use like curling irons, hair dryers, toasters, coffee makers, vacuum cleaners, etc? Im kind of paranoid about fire, and knowing electric is kind of a fickle *****, I try to be as proactive as possible without being too extreme. Being a builder and a EC I also don't want my house to have a fire caused by a electrical fault, that'd be real bad for business.

http://www.theboot.com/2011/06/07/trace-adkins-house-fire-cause/
http://www.examiner.com/music-indus...ty-power-strip-caused-trace-adkins-house-fire

 

[ddawg16]

You bring up a good point. When I built my garage 2 years ago, I put in plenty of outlets. I have 6 duplex sockets in just one corner where the main work bench is. While I only have 2 20A breakers feeding all of the outlets (except the compressor which has it's own). But I only run one thing at a time. Lights are on a seperate breaker...and the upstairs is on a different one.

Strips? None in my garage. House? Just one...but it's a high quality APC UPS for all the computer gear.

I'm in the process of adding on to my house. Putting in a 2-story addition...which requires that I move my load center to the back of the house so the power line wires clear the structure....

The original house only had 4 ckts....2 for lights...2 for outlets.....geezzzzz...how did they ever run anything in the kitchen.....

Anyway....when I upgraded my service 9 years ago to 200A...an ran 4 new ckts to the kitchen. Now that I have the stucco off the house and see just what they are doing....I'm removing the old ckt going to the kitchen.....Too bad the exising wiring is 2 conductor...otherwise, I would put the old ckts on AFIC's.

The only 'strip' I would consider is one that has an individual switch for each receptical...I'm thinking of getting one of those as a charging strip for all of my tool batteries. Or, I will just make one myself.

 

[sberry]

I use a lot of them but I wouldn't leave them plugged in with sustained high loads. Here mostly for wall worts, etc. I even have them plugged in to each other.

 

[andersen24]

CowboyJosh - a couple of things, I always raise an eyebrow every time I hear the cause of the fire being "electrical". It IS the most used scapegoat in the investigation world. That being said, power strips (ps) are probably the most common legitimate cause of an electrical fire. The majority of ps's are cheaply made and aren't worth the plastic they're incased in! If you spend the money on a good APC, Monster Cable, etc power strip you SHOULD be good! People tend to forget that although the power strip adds additional outlets, it is still plugged into an outlet rated at 15-20 amps. With everything working properly you should still trip you're circuit breaker, but that is not always the case. With multiple devices running on a ps, you may be under the 20 amps, but on a cheap ps there is a chance you are over taxing it.

My advice, do NOT use a $9.99 PS from HD or Lowes, etc. Also, to everyone - make sure you check your homeowners insurance and that you are properly insured! I cannot tell you how many times I come across people that the first time they have ever really looked at their policy is when they have a fire (or other emergency), only to find out they are underinsured!

 

[mrb]

a power strip can catch on fire from no load at all. I try to use ones with NO surge protection. here's why: the surge protection consists of MOVs (metal oxide varistor) connected line to neutral, line to ground, and sometimes neutral to ground. These shunt anything over 300v or so to ground. They have a finite life and one of their failure modes is to become conductive at a lower voltage. The internal resistance of them is such that the current flow is limited and the breaker will not trip. Enough current does flow to cause the MOV to go supernova and glow red hot. This can melt the outlet strip and catch something on fire.

 

[Thruxton]

a power strip can catch on fire from no load at all. I try to use ones with NO surge protection. here's why: the surge protection consists of MOVs (metal oxide varistor) connected line to neutral, line to ground, and sometimes neutral to ground. These shunt anything over 300v or so to ground. They have a finite life and one of their failure modes is to become conductive at a lower voltage. The internal resistance of them is such that the current flow is limited and the breaker will not trip. Enough current does flow to cause the MOV to go supernova and glow red hot. This can melt the outlet strip and catch something on fire.

Absolutely right, and I wonder if surge protectors were involved here. There are better-rated varistors but units using them are more expensive and seemingly hard to find. I use two such strips to protect electronics, and I've had one fail (which I caught thankfully - the stink made it easy). I'm going to go to a whole house surge protector late summer, cheap insurance IMHO.

 

[SuperSocket]

a power strip can catch on fire from no load at all. I try to use ones with NO surge protection. here's why: the surge protection consists of MOVs (metal oxide varistor) connected line to neutral, line to ground, and sometimes neutral to ground. These shunt anything over 300v or so to ground. They have a finite life and one of their failure modes is to become conductive at a lower voltage. The internal resistance of them is such that the current flow is limited and the breaker will not trip. Enough current does flow to cause the MOV to go supernova and glow red hot. This can melt the outlet strip and catch something on fire.

Usually the very cheap ones that does not have a fuse or breaker tend to do this.. they tend to warp or weaken overtime or simply melt off like you said.


I avoid those cheap Chinese power strips. I don't know how many people knows this, but cut open a Chinese power cord or cable... it is most likely not copper but tin.

 

[mrb]

Usually the very cheap ones that does not have a fuse or breaker tend to do this.. they tend to warp or weaken overtime or simply melt off like you said.


I avoid those cheap Chinese power strips. I don't know how many people knows this, but cut open a Chinese power cord or cable... it is most likely not copper but tin.

no, its tinned copper which is pretty common, and the internal wiring in most devices and electronics ie: UL1015 is tinned copper

i have yet to find a power strip without a breaker...the red rocker switch is a breaker (actually called a supplimental protector) but that doesnt matter since the failed MOVs will not draw enough current to trip it.

 

[cowboyjosh]

CowboyJosh - a couple of things, I always raise an eyebrow every time I hear the cause of the fire being "electrical". It IS the most used scapegoat in the investigation world. That being said, power strips (ps) are probably the most common legitimate cause of an electrical fire. The majority of ps's are cheaply made and aren't worth the plastic they're incased in! If you spend the money on a good APC, Monster Cable, etc power strip you SHOULD be good! People tend to forget that although the power strip adds additional outlets, it is still plugged into an outlet rated at 15-20 amps. With everything working properly you should still trip you're circuit breaker, but that is not always the case. With multiple devices running on a ps, you may be under the 20 amps, but on a cheap ps there is a chance you are over taxing it.

My advice, do NOT use a $9.99 PS from HD or Lowes, etc. Also, to everyone - make sure you check your homeowners insurance and that you are properly insured! I cannot tell you how many times I come across people that the first time they have ever really looked at their policy is when they have a fire (or other emergency), only to find out they are underinsured!

I agree, 100%. There are cases when you read that the cause of the fire was "undetermined electrical". I always think thats the cheap way out for the insurance company to go after every contractor that ever touched the house.

Kind of the same with the CSST lightning debate, the lightning alone could cause a fire, but now that gas pipe is pin holing, they now have a manufacturer to sue, since the insurance industry hasn't figured out how to sue God yet for striking a property they insure.

I also agree, you get what you pay for when it comes to power strips, I choose the Wire Mold brand for the garage; which is light years better then the .99 cent plastic power strips; I think the Wire Mold with the diamond plate cost about $40.00. For surge protection in the house our surge protectors are the Monster's that cost several hundred dollars each.

 

[cowboyjosh]

no, its tinned copper which is pretty common, and the internal wiring in most devices and electronics ie: UL1015 is tinned copper

i have yet to find a power strip without a breaker...the red rocker switch is a breaker (actually called a supplimental protector) but that doesnt matter since the failed MOVs will not draw enough current to trip it.

I think folks also get a false sense of security with circuit breakers in their homes too. They forget or don't know that they protect the electrical system from over current and will not prevent a fire from defective piece of electrical equipment.

 

[robertwhite]

I also wonder how many of ya'll unplug **** that isn't in use like curling irons, hair dryers, toasters, coffee makers, vacuum cleaners, etc?

I would be interested in hearing why it is bad to leave an appliance plugged in if said appliance is not left "on" and not pulling a load. I never really thought about it and don't understand the theory behind it.

Inquiring minds and all that.

 

[BHR4CE1]

I don't use any power strips, but I still don't take any chances. Thats why we mounted four fire suppressors on the ceiling of the garage...just in case.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I would be interested in hearing why it is bad to leave an appliance plugged in if said appliance is not left "on" and not pulling a load. I never really thought about it and don't understand the theory behind it.

Inquiring minds and all that.

Pretty much just because of the cheap innards like the switch, heating elements, crappy connections, etc. Even when your toaster or coffee maker is off, and their is still power to the device you run the risk of the cheap *** Chinese made switch or heating element failing or a connection getting hot, melting, shorting, and starting a fire. With bathroom appliances, folks tent to just set the curling iron or hair dryer down still plugged in; which can cause a fire should they fall onto a piece of clothes, bath towel, or again, if a switch or connection in the appliance fails. For what it takes to unplug heat generating kitchen and bath appliances, its just not worth the risk of leaving them plugged in.

 

[BHR4CE1]

For what it takes to unplug heat generating kitchen and bath appliances, its just not worth the risk of leaving them plugged in.

 

[Crizzle]

Only strip I have in the garage is one of the 4' wire mold diamond plate strips mounted to the backside of my workbench. I always flip the switch off if I'm not in the garage. No need for the stereo, computer, etc to draw power when I'm not there.

Now I may just unplug the thing all the way when leaving the garage. Not much harder to do

 

[JerseyJim]

Just a quick comment semi-on-topic. It is highly recommended that we use surge protectors with our electronic equipment (computers, TVs, audio components, etc.) As mentioned, it is best to get a good one. However, one item that should NOT be plugged into a surge protector is a laser printer. Laser printers have a high initial surge. Curbing that surge can damage the printer and shorten its life. I learned this the hard way.

 

[Zeke]

I would be interested in hearing why it is bad to leave an appliance plugged in if said appliance is not left "on" and not pulling a load. I never really thought about it and don't understand the theory behind it.

Inquiring minds and all that.

I've had 2 coffee makers self ignite. One melted and fell forward into a trash can that just happened to be left where it was. I was awakened by the smoke detector and threw the whole mess outside to extinguish. The floating plastic ashes reminded me of burning pure acetylene.

I still leave coffee makers plugged in along with a can opener, the toaster and 2 two other kitchen appliances. Temping fate, I guess.

 

[mrb]

Laser printers have a high initial surge. Curbing that surge can damage the printer and shorten its life. I learned this the hard way.

can you back this up with documentation? the 'high initial surge' of a laser printer is a period of high current draw when the heater comes on. Same as when you press down the lever on your toaster. Completely different thing than the voltage spikes 'surge protectors' are supposed to get rid of.

 

[garage rookie]

What do you folks think of a power co.'s surge protection? Our local co-op is offering free install this month.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Would an ARC Fault Circuit breaker catch and MOV arcing when it fails . I know they are only required in bedrooms now and GFI in basements and garage. Would it not be better to have ARC fault in the shop and do they trip when you plug a portable computer and it arcs as you plug it in due to internal design of the power supply. I have GFI or GCFI whichever you want to call them but have not had to use ARC Fault yet.

 

[MadMechMaster]

I work with an engineer who previously worked at a well known small appliance maker. He never leaves toasters, irons, coffee makers, etc. plugged in. He said that the returns department was always full of charred product.

We unplug our small stuff now too. The coffee maker has a clock, so it stays plugged in.

Like anything, a higher quality power strip shouldn't have as many issues as a $1.99 unit. I use power strips all over the place. High current stuff is always in its own independent outlet.

 

[mrb]

Would an ARC Fault Circuit breaker catch and MOV arcing when it fails . I know they are only required in bedrooms now and GFI in basements and garage. Would it not be better to have ARC fault in the shop and do they trip when you plug a portable computer and it arcs as you plug it in due to internal design of the power supply. I have GFI or GCFI whichever you want to call them but have not had to use ARC Fault yet.

no, and you dont want AFCI in your shop if you enjoy using your power tools.

the MOV isnt arcing, its just passing current that causes it to glow red hot.

 

[cowboyjosh]

What do you folks think of a power co.'s surge protection? Our local co-op is offering free install this month.

They are 'OK, but remember you still need a point of use surge at TV's and home theaters, computers, etc; to catch any surge induced like stray lightning, ac kicking on, any other imbalance or anything causing a surge after the surge protector installed on your meter or main panel.

Personally I have a commercial grade Leviton on my feed thru panel on the side of the house, and in the 2, 42 space panels inside the house, each one had a Square D QO Secondary surge breaker, as well as surge protector outlets, again from Leviton, installed at the TV's, security / fire panel, computers, etc. Thing I don't like about the utility company is the re-accuring monthly charge. On the other hand if your out of breaker space, it might be the way to go.

Like I say about surge protectors and lightning rods "surge protection and lightning rods are allot like birth control, you don't know when its worked, but you sure as hell know when it didn't".

Cheap *** surge protectors from HD, Lowes, aren't worth the powder to blow to hell, get descent units from Monster, Panamax, or APC.

 

[Thruxton]

What do you folks think of a power co.'s surge protection? Our local co-op is offering free install this month.

IMHO this is the A prime solution, which I am going to implement in my home/shop. Free?! Go for it!!

 

[slimpickins]

I had a garage door opener fail on me about a year ago, and when I got up on a ladder to check it out, it was ****** hot -- luck was on my side that time because it was a couple of days from when it quit to when I checked it! It was a good thing it was hanging a few feet down from the ceiling. That's one piece of equipment you pretty much have to leave plugged in. I guess you could put the outlet on a switch and turn it off at night or put it on a timer so it's only on at the usual times when you come home. Adds a bit of security too.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I had a garage door opener fail on me about a year ago, and when I got up on a ladder to check it out, it was ****** hot -- luck was on my side that time because it was a couple of days from when it quit to when I checked it! It was a good thing it was hanging a few feet down from the ceiling. That's one piece of equipment you pretty much have to leave plugged in. I guess you could put the outlet on a switch and turn it off at night or put it on a timer so it's only on at the usual times when you come home. Adds a bit of security too.

About 10 years ago in my new homes I was wiring in disconnect switches for the garage door opener outlets, the kill switch was at about the height of the door frame going from the house to the garage on the firewall clearly marked, but out of the way; all was well and good until the AHJ's stopped allowing the switch for some unexplained reasons. Personally I think a disconnect switch like what is required on furnaces is a good idea for the GDO, not in case the unit starts fire which rarely if ever happens, but in the event you need to service the unit, go on vacations, etc.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Would an ARC Fault Circuit breaker catch and MOV arcing when it fails . I know they are only required in bedrooms now and GFI in basements and garage. Would it not be better to have ARC fault in the shop and do they trip when you plug a portable computer and it arcs as you plug it in due to internal design of the power supply. I have GFI or GCFI whichever you want to call them but have not had to use ARC Fault yet.

No, I hate GFI's for the garage, also. I should have bought stock in Leviton when I first tried to keep the damn things alive in the garage. I finally got smart and replaced them all with plain commercial leviton's...not a single failure since.

As for strips, what are you guys talking about? Cheap plug in surge strips? I have some 4' commercial outlet strips in the garage over the workbench, and love them. They're also hard wired, and each on their own 20 amp breaker, though.

 

[Thruxton]

No, I hate GFI's for the garage, also. I should have bought stock in Leviton when I first tried to keep the damn things alive in the garage. I finally got smart and replaced them all with plain commercial leviton's...not a single failure since.

As for strips, what are you guys talking about? Cheap plug in surge strips? I have some 4' commercial outlet strips in the garage over the workbench, and love them. They're also hard wired, and each on their own 20 amp breaker, though.

I do not think the kind of strip you are using is a problem at all. And BTW, if you are tired of replacing GFCI receptacles, go to a GFCI breaker. That has eliminated most of my problems with the things. 20A GFCI's also seem to last longer than the 15A units.

 

[VWandDodge]

I had a garage door opener fail on me about a year ago, and when I got up on a ladder to check it out, it was ****** hot -- luck was on my side that time because it was a couple of days from when it quit to when I checked it! It was a good thing it was hanging a few feet down from the ceiling. That's one piece of equipment you pretty much have to leave plugged in. I guess you could put the outlet on a switch and turn it off at night or put it on a timer so it's only on at the usual times when you come home. Adds a bit of security too.

About two years ago, I smelled something burning in the house. It took a few minutes of sniffing before I found the culprit -- the ceiling fan in my son's room. Just like your garage door opening, it was H-O-T. I made a comment about that to the electrician who I had upgrade the breaker box in my garage earlier this year, and he nodded his head acknowledging that it was not uncommon in some of the cheaper, Chinese made units.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I have 2 strips in the garage, one for the blast cabinet, (cabinet flood light and shop vac) and another for the battery chargers (dewalt) which might have 1 battery plugged in at one time, maybe 2 batteries on occasion.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd venture to say that we have had more fires caused by cigarettes than by manufacturer defective electrical.

I'm not talking really piss poor wiring or setting a Makita drill case on a stove, which was accidently turned on, but simply something electrical that failed.

 

[Greatbear]

I only use typical "outlet strips" for low power devices. In the garage I have a shelf full of battery chargers that get turned off en masse through the power strips. For actual heavy-duty outlet strips, I make my own out of Wiremold G3000 and G4000 raceway and add my own devices of the kind I want and where I want them. 130 amp power strip? No problem!

 

[jfleisher]

That laser printer issue is a common misconception. Power strips are fine for lasers, it's UPS's that are the issue.

http://reviewsurgeprotector.com/surge-protection-issues-with-laser-printers.html

 

[VHF]

Anyway....when I upgraded my service 9 years ago to 200A...an ran 4 new ckts to the kitchen. Now that I have the stucco off the house and see just what they are doing....I'm removing the old ckt going to the kitchen.....Too bad the exising wiring is 2 conductor...otherwise, I would put the old ckts on AFIC's.

Can't AFCI's be used with a two wire circuit the same as a GFCI breaker?

My opinion is that the requirement of AFCI's in new construction is pretty silly, but I would certainly consider using them if I had an older house with questionable wiring.

 

[That Guy Scott]

I'd venture to say that we have had more fires caused by cigarettes than by manufacturer defective electrical.

I'm not talking really piss poor wiring or setting a Makita drill case on a stove, which was accidently turned on, but simply something electrical that failed.

I would agree with this in my experiences. Also, besides cigs, I see more fires from dryers and water heaters than a small kitchen appliance or a charger.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I would agree with this in my experiences. Also, besides cigs, I see more fires from dryers and water heaters than a small kitchen appliance or a charger.

I also wanted to add dishwashers to the list. I haven't heard of a fire from a water heater unless their was **** piled up next to the pilot; but I have heard and when I was a volunteer fireman we had many of dryer fires. We also had more calls then you'd believe with washer motors overheating, smoking, and starting fire, from overloading the machine or just mechanical failure.

Only a fool would leave the house or go to bed with a washer, dryer, or dishwasher, running.

I guess anything that uses electric, or gas, can start a fire; shoot last year in Denver it was on the news that a central a/c unit was the cause of a large house fire.

I think part of fire prevention is up to homeowners to keep appliances (including furnaces, air conditioners, washers, dryers, etc) and other electrical equipment in good working order, and if they are acting up and not working property to get them repaired.

 

[nate379]

Do you honestly think 30 or 40 gals of water would do any good? By the time the flames are big enough to set those if be like trying to put out a forest fire by ******* on it.

I don't use any power strips, but I still don't take any chances. Thats why we mounted four fire suppressors on the ceiling of the garage...just in case.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Do you honestly think 30 or 40 gals of water would do any good? By the time the flames are big enough to set those if be like trying to put out a forest fire by ******* on it.

Actually those are fire extinguishers with about 40 lbs of dry powder and propellant. You can buy them from Griots Garage.

I too also have 2 of them in my garage, along with heat detctors tied into my alarm system.

 

[cowboyjosh]

In reference to above, heres a story today about a water heater causing a fire, or more specifically **** stored too close to a water heater in a beauty parlor.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/28198303/detail.html

 

[SuperSocket]

Do you honestly think 30 or 40 gals of water would do any good? By the time the flames are big enough to set those if be like trying to put out a forest fire by ******* on it.

I think you would be surprised how effective chemical fire suppression is...


And no, it's not water, lol