Electrical Guru's Please step inside - 200amp service

[OutlawDrifter]

Here is my dilemma, located outside city limits in Northeast Kansas, therefore no inspection required by the county. Below is a picture of the current shutoff located right below my meter. It is 200amp service, or at least each one of the recessed areas on the switch lists "200". The main set of wires going down is the 200amp service to my house, the other set going out the side is 100amp service going to my 24x30 garage.

I'd prefer to run 200amp service to the new building 36x40, but I'm not 100% married to the idea either. There will be some 220v usage in the building, my air compressor, one of my welders, plasma cutter, and a minisplit air conditioning system.

It's 45' from the pole to the side of the new building where I'll be running the power inside.

Any insite would be appreciated. Can I pull 200 more off this, or would I need a different meter/shutoff combo? Is 200amps necessary, or would 100amps be more than suffictient to run 2-3 of the above listed items at the same time? Should I run another ground rod outside of the new building? Thanks for the insite in advance!

 

[reader2580]

This box has a 200 amp breaker in it. If you split the 200 amps into two 200 amp feeds after the breaker you're still going to be splitting 200 amps of power between the house, current garage, and new building. I would probably save money and run no more than 150 amps to the new building.

I'll let others explain how to connect the new feed into the current wiring. I'm not sure doing another tap like was done for the current garage would be code legal.

 

[Cr0ck1]

Dangerous box. Start by swapping out this current box with a new 200 amp box. Then install a 100 amp breaker in it with 2,2,2,4 wire to the 100 amp subpanel


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[Aceman]

Your plan is to have a house and two detached garages on one service? The first thing to do at this point is a load calculation to determine if a 200 amp service is sufficient or not. As well as any potential upgrades or additions that may be done in the future.

Then, I would come up with a plan to replace what you have.

If you can do a proper load calc and then post the results, it will take a lot of guessing(and potential extra $$$) out of it. I googled and found a free app in less than 60 seconds, so it shouldn't be too much trouble for you to know exactly where you're at load wise.

Dangerous box. Start by swapping out this current box with a new 200 amp box. Then install a 100 amp breaker in it with 2,2,2,4 wire to the 100 amp subpanel


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Why is it dangerous? Which codes are being violated?

 

[Cr0ck1]

Your plan is to have a house and two detached garages on one service? The first thing to do at this point is a load calculation to determine if a 200 amp service is sufficient or not. As well as any potential upgrades or additions that may be done in the future.

Then, I would come up with a plan to replace what you have.

If you can do a proper load calc and then post the results, it will take a lot of guessing(and potential extra $$$) out of it. I googled and found a free app in less than 60 seconds, so it shouldn't be too much trouble for you to know exactly where you're at load wise.



Why is it dangerous? Which codes are being violated?

The tapped in wire with electrical tape. Thats 2 loads on 1 breaker ,no ground, no ground bar.


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[Bert_]

I wouldn't call it dangerous, but I would be looking at replacement if you plan on adding stuff. It looks like an older ITE brand breaker they usually have aluminum bus and were generally cheap and deteriorate with age.

+1 On doing at least a rough load calc. you need to get an idea of you current usage. Often time the utility can tell you what your peak usage is. Unless you have alot of load a 200A service is probably adequate.

A nice option if you have several large wire's to power is to place a terminal box below your service disconnect. I am familiar with midwest stuff so an example would be a midwest T1220. It would save having to make taps, like the one shown, inside a disconnect that doesn't really have enough room inside it.

The tapped in wire with electrical tape. Thats 2 loads on 1 breaker ,no ground, no ground bar.
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The wires look like they are joined with H crimps and then covered in tape. This is a very reliable connection.

Nothing wrong with 2 loads on one breaker. It's called a tap and is legal there are rules that need to be followed though. The box isn't really big enough to do that sort of thing though so I suppose you could site wire bending space as a violation.
The 3 wire feed could be old enough to be legal. No way to tell how old it is from pictures. There isn't a GEC in the pic though (wire to ground rods or other grounding electrode).

 

[manwithtools]

Why is it dangerous?

Because it has a wasp nest in it

 

[OutlawDrifter]

Between the house and current garage I'm getting a load calculation around 100amps. I tried to error on the high side. The current garage will be used only for wood work, and never at the same time as the new shop. The only constant power draw in the old garage will be the deep freeze.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

 

[OutlawDrifter]

Because it has a wasp nest in it

Wasp nest was appropriately removed in a "humane" manner ;-).

 

[Cr0ck1]

Because it has a wasp nest in it

Lol


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[Bert_]

Because it has a wasp nest in it

Haha

 

[STx]

Here is my dilemma, located outside city limits in Northeast Kansas, therefore no inspection required by the county. Below is a picture of the current shutoff located right below my meter. It is 200amp service, or at least each one of the recessed areas on the switch lists "200". The main set of wires going down is the 200amp service to my house, the other set going out the side is 100amp service going to my 24x30 garage.

I'd prefer to run 200amp service to the new building 36x40, but I'm not 100% married to the idea either. There will be some 220v usage in the building, my air compressor, one of my welders, plasma cutter, and a minisplit air conditioning system.

It's 45' from the pole to the side of the new building where I'll be running the power inside.

Any insite would be appreciated. Can I pull 200 more off this, or would I need a different meter/shutoff combo? Is 200amps necessary, or would 100amps be more than suffictient to run 2-3 of the above listed items at the same time? Should I run another ground rod outside of the new building? Thanks for the insite in advance!

I see the following code violations in this box -

1 - Neutral doesn't have a white stripe on it, paint one or wrap some white tape around it.
2 - I'm assuming this is coming in from the meter can and that the ground rod is run into the can where it's bonded to the neutral. If that's the case, you need an isolated ground rod running from the meter can into this box and terminated on a grounding strip with no bond in this box. If that isn't the case, you need a ground rod here and this panel should be bonded. Ground wire should be #6 and green or should have green tape or paint put on it.
3 - An isolated ground wire should be run to every sub-panel from wherever the bond happened. You only bond once.
4 - I can't tell if the conduit is metallic or PVC, if it's metallic, you need a grounded bushing on the inlet conduit and plastic bushings on the rest.
5 - That splice looks suspect.

If it were me, I'd fix the code issues and install a new load center with a 200A main and a pass through bus (like a Square D Homeline). I'd feed the house off the pass through lugs and install a couple of 100A breakers for the 2 garages and feed off those.

Figure out where your ground is and get the bonding and isolated ground wires straight. A new ground rod at the garage without the isolated ground going back to the originally bonded panel is unsafe, electricity isn't really trying to find the quickest path to ground, it's trying to find it's way back to the source. Without an isolated ground wire running back to you're original bond and with a new ground rod, you're counting on the conductivity of the earth being better than you're conductivity, that's not a good bet.

You'd be surprised how little current you actually use, I ran a welding shop for several years in a leased space with 100A service and with the 5HP air compressor and 2 250A welders running at the same time, along with A/C for the office space, computers, fans, radios, chop saw, a 40gal water heater, etc., we never ran short of power.

 

[Cr0ck1]

I see the following code violations in this box -

1 - Neutral doesn't have a white stripe on it, paint one or wrap some white tape around it.
2 - I'm assuming this is coming in from the meter can and that the ground rod is run into the can where it's bonded to the neutral. If that's the case, you need an isolated ground rod running from the meter can into this box and terminated on a grounding strip with no bond in this box. If that isn't the case, you need a ground rod here and this panel should be bonded. Ground wire should be #6 and green or should have green tape or paint put on it.
3 - An isolated ground wire should be run to every sub-panel from wherever the bond happened. You only bond once.
4 - I can't tell if the conduit is metallic or PVC, if it's metallic, you need a grounded bushing on the inlet conduit and plastic bushings on the rest.
5 - That splice isn't safe.

If it were me, I'd fix the code issues and install a new load center with a 200A main and a pass through bus (like a Square D Homeline). I'd feed the house off the pass through lugs and install a couple of 100A breakers for the 2 garages and feed off those.

Figure out where your ground is and get the bonding and isolated ground wires straight. A new ground rod at the garage without the isolated ground going back to the originally bonded panel is unsafe, electricity isn't really trying to find the quickest path to ground, it's trying to find it's way back to the source. Without an isolated ground wire running back to you're original bond and with a new ground rod, you're counting on the conductivity of the earth being better than you're conductivity, that's not a good bet.

You'd be surprised how little current you actually use, I ran a welding shop for several years in a leased space with 100A service and with the 5HP air compressor and 2 250A welders running at the same time, along with A/C for the office space, computers, fans, radios, chop saw, a 40gal water heater, etc., we never ran short of power.

Exactly how i feel.

I just did mine right .. new 200 amp svc in my house, 2,2,2,4 from my 100amp breaker in my main panel to my 100 amp sub panel in my shop (wire in 1 1/2 conduit 18" trench.

Green screw removed in sub to isolate the neutral & ground.

# 4 copper wire ran to (2) 8' ground rods, 6' apart


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[wyliesdiesels]

Here is my dilemma, located outside city limits in Northeast Kansas, therefore no inspection required by the county. Below is a picture of the current shutoff located right below my meter. It is 200amp service, or at least each one of the recessed areas on the switch lists "200". The main set of wires going down is the 200amp service to my house, the other set going out the side is 100amp service going to my 24x30 garage.

I'd prefer to run 200amp service to the new building 36x40, but I'm not 100% married to the idea either. There will be some 220v usage in the building, my air compressor, one of my welders, plasma cutter, and a minisplit air conditioning system.

It's 45' from the pole to the side of the new building where I'll be running the power inside.

Any insight would be appreciated. Can I pull 200 more off this, or would I need a different meter/shutoff combo? Is 200amps necessary, or would 100amps be more than sufficient to run 2-3 of the above listed items at the same time? Should I run another ground rod outside of the new building? Thanks for the insight in advance!

90a would be more than sufficient for that. 200a would be overkill

U could use #2-2-2-4 AL MHF. 45' is not an issue for voltage drop

U will need a TWO rods at the shop. Also, i dont see any GEC going to rods at your meter disconnect. If you dont have them there then u need to add them.

In the subpanel in the shop u will need to isolate the neutral bar and adda ground bar kit.

This box has a 200 amp breaker in it. If you split the 200 amps into two 200 amp feeds after the breaker you're still going to be splitting 200 amps of power between the house, current garage, and new building. I would probably save money and run no more than 150 amps to the new building.

I'll let others explain how to connect the new feed into the current wiring. I'm not sure doing another tap like was done for the current garage would be code legal.

No way to know if its legal or not without seeing both ends.

Dangerous box. Start by swapping out this current box with a new 200 amp box. Then install a 100 amp breaker in it with 2,2,2,4 wire to the 100 amp subpanel

Nothing dangerous about it.

And #2 AL is NOT allowed to be over current protected @ 100a unless it's feeding a dwelling.

The tapped in wire with electrical tape. Thats 2 loads on 1 breaker ,no ground, no ground bar.

Its called a tap and is legal.

That is the first disconnect below the meter so there would be no separate ground bar. notice the bonded neutral bar?

Between the house and current garage I'm getting a load calculation around 100amps. I tried to error on the high side. The current garage will be used only for wood work, and never at the same time as the new shop. The only constant power draw in the old garage will be the deep freeze.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

200a should be fine for all of that.

I see the following code violations in this box -

1 - Neutral doesn't have a white stripe on it, paint one or wrap some white tape around it.
2 - I'm assuming this is coming in from the meter can and that the ground rod is run into the can where it's bonded to the neutral. If that's the case, you need an isolated ground rod running from the meter can into this box and terminated on a grounding strip with no bond in this box. If that isn't the case, you need a ground rod here and this panel should be bonded. Ground wire should be #6 and green or should have green tape or paint put on it.
3 - An isolated ground wire should be run to every sub-panel from wherever the bond happened. You only bond once.
4 - I can't tell if the conduit is metallic or PVC, if it's metallic, you need a grounded bushing on the inlet conduit and plastic bushings on the rest.
5 - That splice looks suspect.

If it were me, I'd fix the code issues and install a new load center with a 200A main and a pass through bus (like a Square D Homeline). I'd feed the house off the pass through lugs and install a couple of 100A breakers for the 2 garages and feed off those.......

#2- Even if the GEC was terminated in meter can, the neutral bar in the first disconnect would still be bonded. Code says first disconnect is bonded. Most PoCo's however do not allow the GEC in the meter can. The GEC does NOT need to be green. No code calls for that. And this can is bonded.

#3 An isolated ground wire is something completely different than an EGC- electrode grounding conductor. You are confusing things here. And prior to 2008 NEC code cycle, detached structures were allowed to have a 3-wire feeder(no EGC) with bonded neutral bar in sub as long as there was no other parallel metallic pathway. This may have been wired prior to 2008 and completely up to code.

#5 Why is the tap suspect?

Figure out where your ground is and get the bonding and isolated ground wires straight. A new ground rod at the garage without the isolated ground going back to the originally bonded panel is unsafe, electricity isn't really trying to find the quickest path to ground, it's trying to find it's way back to the source. Without an isolated ground wire running back to you're original bond and with a new ground rod, you're counting on the conductivity of the earth being better than you're conductivity, that's not a good bet.

Lots of FUD here. Everything u said is incorrect.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Code does not require isolated grounding here. You are adding more confusion.

A ground rod on a 3-wire feed is NOT unsafe. Millions of detached buildings have been wired like this for decades without issue. The grounding electrode system has NOTHING to do with fault current. It is for lightning suppression. Fault current doesnt even flow on ground rods.

EGCs and grounding electrodes are 2 different animals. And current doesnt flow on EGCs under normal operation.

Your comment about conductivity of the earth is inconsequential.

You should familiarize yourself a little more with the subject before adding FUD. You really need to read this article as you are completely confused on the subject:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

Exactly how i feel.

I just did mine right .. new 200 amp svc in my house, 2,2,2,4 from my 100amp breaker in my main panel to my 100 amp sub panel in my shop (wire in 1 1/2 conduit 18" trench.

Green screw removed in sub to isolate the neutral & ground.

#4 copper wire ran to (2) 8' ground rods, 6' apart

#2 AL on 100a breaker not to code

#4 CU is overkill to rods. Max size needed is #6.

Looks like u have 1 non sq d breaker. Second from the top on the left.

And that trench looks shallow.

 

[Cr0ck1]

Trench is 18" and the non square d needs to be changed yes!!


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[OutlawDrifter]

wyliesdiesels, thanks for the info!

House and 24x30 were put up in 2003. The meter has a "ground" attached to the support cable for the pole and another that runs straight down into the same hole the pole is set in.

Just trying to keep this as simple as possible. Sounds like I need to swap my shop's 200amp box out for a 100amp setup, that'll save some dough. Would another tap be sufficient for this setup? As stated, there are no inspections in my area, hell, I didn't even need a permit for the building. Originally from Nebraska, so this lack of government involvement blows my mind!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

wyliesdiesels, thanks for the info!

House and 24x30 were put up in 2003. The meter has a "ground" attached to the support cable for the pole and another that runs straight down into the same hole the pole is set in.

Just trying to keep this as simple as possible. Sounds like I need to swap my shop's 200amp box out for a 100amp setup, that'll save some dough. Would another tap be sufficient for this setup? As stated, there are no inspections in my area, hell, I didn't even need a permit for the building. Originally from Nebraska, so this lack of government involvement blows my mind!

The bare insulated wire from the service drop is NOT a ground wire. It is the neutral wire. PoCos in the US do NOT distribute ground wires to services.

The wire running down the pole into the ground should go to a ground rod.

U dont need to swap out the shop panel. U can feed a 200a panel with a lower ampacity feeder.

I would not add another tap.

Best thing to do would be to replace the disconnect u have with a multi space service panel. That way u can have individual disconnects for each building.

Going forward u will need to run 4-wire feeders.

And if u replace the current panel, code requires that feeder to be upgraded to 4-wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

here are some pics for reference:

4-wire feeder to detached

3-wire feeder to detached (pre 2008 code cycle)

 

[OutlawDrifter]

I was just looking at those same pictures, thanks for sharing. The 200amp box is unopened and new, can be exchanged easily. If end up having to replace the disconnect box, it will hopefully help offset some of that cost.

So if I'm reading this correctly, the only feeders that need to be upgraded are the new ones going forward. If I put in a new disconnect box; the house and original garage can stay 3-wire, and the new shop will have to be 4-wire?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yes existing can stay 3-wire if u dont change out the subpanel.

and yes any new feeders need to be 4-wire.

 

[Aceman]

The tapped in wire with electrical tape. Thats 2 loads on 1 breaker ,no ground, no ground bar.


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You are mistaken on why you think it's a code violation.

Between the house and current garage I'm getting a load calculation around 100amps. I tried to error on the high side. The current garage will be used only for wood work, and never at the same time as the new shop. The only constant power draw in the old garage will be the deep freeze.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

If your load calc is around 100 amps, and you are comfortable with keeping a 200 amp service I would recommend simply replacing the existing main breaker enclosure with a 200 amp 8/16 metermain. This is a combination meterbase and main breaker enclosure with 8 spaces for feeder or branch circuit breakers. It would allow you to feed your home with 200 amps, while at the same time giving your room to add 100 amp (or whatever size you wanted?) breakers for your additional two shops.

I just did mine right ..

Those pictures you posted above do NOT show an electrical installation "done right." I'm not going into detail about it though because this thread is for a different topic. I just wanted to mention that those pictures should NOT be the guideline for other members to follow.

 

[Cr0ck1]

You are mistaken on why you think it's a code violation.



If your load calc is around 100 amps, and you are comfortable with keeping a 200 amp service I would recommend simply replacing the existing main breaker enclosure with a 200 amp 8/16 metermain. This is a combination meterbase and main breaker enclosure with 8 spaces for feeder or branch circuit breakers. It would allow you to feed your home with 200 amps, while at the same time giving your room to add 100 amp (or whatever size you wanted?) breakers for your additional two shops.



Those pictures you posted above do NOT show an electrical installation "done right." I'm not going into detail about it though because this thread is for a different topic. I just wanted to mention that those pictures should NOT be the guideline for other members to follow.

Passed inspection.


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[wyliesdiesels]

Passed inspection.


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plenty of inspectors that dont know code.

 

[Aceman]

Passed inspection.

You should ask for your money back then.

Most of the members have been on here long enough to know there is a difference between "passed inspection" and "done right."

There have been countless threads on this forum from folks asking how to do something and when they posted pics of their existing panel, several problems were caught by observant members, even on panels that had passed inspection.

 

[Cr0ck1]

Most of the members have been on here long enough to know there is a difference between "passed inspection" and "done right."



There have been countless threads on this forum from folks asking how to do something and when they posted pics of their existing panel, several problems were caught by observant members, even on panels that had passed inspection.

Understood!!! Someone pm me with the problem they see!! Ive seen some dangerous ****.. lll


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[wyliesdiesels]

Understood!!! Someone pm me with the problem they see!! Ive seen some dangerous ****.. lll


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i already stated the first problem above.

 

[Cr0ck1]

NEC 2002 allows using #4 AWG copper or #2 aluminum feeders based on the 100 amp circuit breaker supplying the subpanel.


And actually now looking.. my copper ground is #6 wire.


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[Cr0ck1]

Oh yea the breaker.. dam AC guy put that in.. reminds me to get another 30 amp to swap out!


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[Norcal]

NEC 2002 allows using #4 AWG copper or #2 aluminum feeders based on the 100 amp circuit breaker supplying the subpanel.


And actually now looking.. my copper ground is #6 wire.


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No it does not allow it.

 

[Cr0ck1]

Actually your right. Just checked!!! I will be swapping it with a 90 amp breaker tomorrow!!

my bad.

I was using Article 240.4 Protection of Conductors (B) Devices Rated At 800 Amperes or Less(2) using the next size circuit breaker if there is no standard circuit breaker that corresponds to the conductor's ampacity. I plum forgot about a 90 amp circuit breaker being a standard breaker. So, #4 AWG copper and #2 AWG aluminum have to be protected by a 90 amp breaker not a 100 amp breaker.

My apologies for the wrong info.


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[wyliesdiesels]

NEC 2002 allows using #4 AWG copper or #2 aluminum feeders based on the 100 amp circuit breaker supplying the subpanel.


And actually now looking.. my copper ground is #6 wire.


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where do u see that?

#4 cu is 85a and #2 al is 90a 75* c column

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Actually your right. Just checked!!! I will be swapping it with a 90 amp breaker tomorrow!!

my bad.

I was using Article 240.4 Protection of Conductors (B) Devices Rated At 800 Amperes or Less(2) using the next size circuit breaker if there is no standard circuit breaker that corresponds to the conductor's ampacity. I plum forgot about a 90 amp circuit breaker being a standard breaker. So, #4 AWG copper and #2 AWG aluminum have to be protected by a 90 amp breaker not a 100 amp breaker.

My apologies for the wrong info.


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lol but it passed inspection

 

[Cmreschke]

For clarification on your "tap" please. And anyone here can chime in as well. I'm a little fuzzy, but, the tap rule would be a violation here unless his distance is less than 25' (off the top of my head, code book isn't around). Plus no concern in regards to the tap conductors looks like they are roughly #2 aluminum being protected by a 200 amp breaker?

Care to clarify that.

Also egc is equipment grounding conductor NOT electrode grounding conductor.

 

[Cr0ck1]

lol but it passed inspection

Yes your correct! I will be swapping out with 90 amp breaker tomorrow!!!

Also just changed that 30amp to a square d. That slipped my mind!!

Good bunch of guys here!! All corrected now!!!

Thx a bunch!!




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[theoldwizard1]

First, there is no need to replace any of the load centers (breaker boxes) in any of the existing building, even if the "main" for that building is "over sized" What is important is the size of the breaker in this disconnect box and the size, type and distance to the next box.

I would replace this disconnect box with a box that has a 200A main and 6 or 8 spaces (12 or 16 circuits). Each building should have its own 2 pole breaker, again, sized for the size, type and distance of the wire leading out of the breaker.

You really need a "main" in this box because the theoretical out of the box is more than the service feeding it.

 

[Cr0ck1]

Sorry for hijacking his thread!! Lets get back to the first posters question at hand!!

-cr0ck1


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[OutlawDrifter]

First, there is no need to replace any of the load centers (breaker boxes) in any of the existing building, even if the "main" for that building is "over sized" What is important is the size of the breaker in this disconnect box and the size, type and distance to the next box.

I would replace this disconnect box with a box that has a 200A main and 6 or 8 spaces (12 or 16 circuits). Each building should have its own 2 pole breaker, again, sized for the size, type and distance of the wire leading out of the breaker.

Right, issue at hand is the main disconnect. Just need to touch base with the local REA and see about an electrician possibly. I can wire from the box to the shop. And I'm fairly certain the meter has to come out to cut the live power to the disconnect.

 

[bjcouche]

For reference, I believe this is what STx and others have been referring to as a 200A "feed through" panel.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GLDQVI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is the best picture I could find of one surprisingly. Basically you would replace your existing service breaker panel with this. You would remove the existing tap and connect your 200A wires to your house to the bottom feed through lugs. Those lugs are protected by the 200A breaker. Then you would install breakers (up to 125A) in the breaker slots to supply power to your various other buildings. These panels also come in a variety that combines the meter socket in the same panel. Also note, the breaker slots also get turned off when you turn off the 200A main...

Brian