Electrical issue after Sheetrock installation

[racerboy]

I just had Sheetrock installed/painted and now I have an electrical ‘issue’ that did not exist before. I’m not even sure the two are related but here’s the problem. The garage door opener for my big shop door is plugged into an outlet in the ceiling. When they installed the sheetrock on the ceiling, they cut around it so I would still have access.


After they finished, I noticed that my door was opening very slowly because the opener was running on battery power. In the panel, the fuse that powers this outlet is kind of loose (circled in yellow). If I push on the fuse you can here the opener ‘click’ because it now has AC power. Here’s the really strange part (at least to me). If I turn in the fuse for my small hanging wall heater, I also get power to the door opener. Why would that happen? And why now? This opener ran fine for years, whether I had the heat on or not. In the end, it’s sort of a moot point since I am swapping out this opener for a LiftMaster 8500W, and that will be getting power from an outlet closer to the door, but I’m still curious why this is happening. Should I pull the cover off of the panel?

Like i said earlier, the fuse circled in yellow is a bit loose (along with the skinny double directly to its right). The one circled in red controls the 230v outlet for my heater.




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[pvanderlugt]

Drywallers poked a screw thru the wires going to the heater and opener and “combined” them?? Should be able to test that theory with a multi meter pretty easily...
Pete

 

[racerboy]

Thanks Pete. How do I test this?

Also, I forgot to add that when I push on the ‘yellow’ fuse, you hear the opener click, but it doesn’t stay ‘active’. It will eventually trip the fuse. I’m not sure if that’s the correct term because the switch itself doesn’t flop to the other side, but the entire fuse seems to shift.


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[Norcal]

A screw or nail was driven into a cable is a very likely reason, BTW, those twin breakers from the looks of them are not listed or labeled for use in that panel, very few Cutler-Hammer CH panels are suitable for their use, if someone can lift the lug end of the breaker off/is real sloppy when the cover is removed, it should not be used.

 

[Bert_]

Somebody screwed up. Why is the outlet so far back behind the sheetrock?

 

[dcg9381]

Likely the box that socket was in wasn't set at the correct depth. Sheetrockers didn't give a **** as they don't do electrical. Easy fix with a "remodel" box.

 

[racerboy]

A screw or nail was driven into a cable is a very likely reason, BTW, those twin breakers from the looks of them are not listed or labeled for use in that panel, very few Cutler-Hammer CH panels are suitable for their use, if someone can lift the lug end of the breaker off/is real sloppy when the cover is removed, it should not be used.

Are you referring to the one that is split? I just put that label on there. The top controls the outlets along the left wall (facing the doors) and the bottom is for outlets along the back wall. Are these split breakers bad? They are definitely loose in the panel. I can push them around quite easily.



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[racerboy]

Likely the box that socket was in wasn't set at the correct depth. Sheetrockers didn't give a **** as they don't do electrical. Easy fix with a "remodel" box.

My brother in law did the electric work a couple years back and clearly didn’t set any of the outlets or switches far enough forward, even though I told him I was going to finish the walls someday.

I have been going around and loosening the outlet retaining screws so they can be pulled far enough forward so that the cover plate screws can grab hold. Is this a bad method? Should I be doing something else?


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[bamawildcat]

My brother in law did the electric work a couple years back and clearly didn’t set any of the outlets or switches far enough forward, even though I told him I was going to finish the walls someday.

I have been going around and loosening the outlet retaining screws so they can be pulled far enough forward so that the cover plate screws can grab hold. Is this a bad method? Should I be doing something else?


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They have plastic electrical box extenders at the big box stores. It looks like a plastic junction box with no back. Note they will be blue in color, not to be confused with an orange low-voltage mud ring.

 

[racerboy]

Ok. Thanks!


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[TRWham]

If you have a single pole circuit breaker controlling a 240 V circuit, then something is wrong. There must be 2 poles of opposite phase to feed 240 V in a typical residential set up. You need to find the breaker feeding the other side of the 240 for that heater. When you do, I think some of your mystery may be resolved.

 

[Norcal]

Are you referring to the one that is split? I just put that label on there. The top controls the outlets along the left wall (facing the doors) and the bottom is for outlets along the back wall. Are these split breakers bad? They are definitely loose in the panel. I can push them around quite easily.



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Yes, very few C-H Eaton panels are listed for those twin breakers, they plug in and fit but flop around where they hook on the rail because they are not intended to be used in that position. There was a 30+ year run of those panels before the twin breaker was brought out into the market.

 

[Mick56]

If you can get into the attic, follow the wire that goes to the opener outlet. Try to find where the screw or nail pierced the wire. If it's not there, it's in the wall.

 

[Innovate1]

If you have a single pole circuit breaker controlling a 240 V circuit, then something is wrong. There must be 2 poles of opposite phase to feed 240 V in a typical residential set up. You need to find the breaker feeding the other side of the 240 for that heater. When you do, I think some of your mystery may be resolved.

+1 I noticed that too.

 

[racerboy]

If you have a single pole circuit breaker controlling a 240 V circuit, then something is wrong. There must be 2 poles of opposite phase to feed 240 V in a typical residential set up. You need to find the breaker feeding the other side of the 240 for that heater. When you do, I think some of your mystery may be resolved.

That breaker has two 'poles', it's just that my label has a black line between the two. I was labeling a 240A outlet that is between my garage doors.

 

[racerboy]

If you have a single pole circuit breaker controlling a 240 V circuit, then something is wrong. There must be 2 poles of opposite phase to feed 240 V in a typical residential set up. You need to find the breaker feeding the other side of the 240 for that heater. When you do, I think some of your mystery may be resolved.

I just realized you were talking about my 'HEAT' fuse, not the one that says '240v BTW Doors'. Yikes. Like I said, my brother in law did this wiring and that heater definitely does not plug into a 120v outlet. Does that mean another one of the breakers is feeding it? Why would it get wired this way?

I wonder if it is the breaker right below it? I tried flipping that on/off but could not tell what circuit it was controlling. Tomorrow, I am going to turn on the heat and flip that breaker to see if it is the other pole. Again, if it is, why wouldn't you use a double fuse? He's supposedly a union electrician. hmmm....

 

[racerboy]

So I just went out to the shop and sure enough, that was it. The unlabeled breaker right under the one that says 'HEAT' is the other pole. Should I have someone change that over to a 'linked' breaker, like I have for the LIFT or COMP? Is that something I can do?

 

[purplezr2]

Take the cover off should make quick work of figuring it out. Turn the power of to the panel if you don’t feel safe. Post a picture

 

[racerboy]

Yes, very few C-H Eaton panels are listed for those twin breakers, they plug in and fit but flop around where they hook on the rail because they are not intended to be used in that position. There was a 30+ year run of those panels before the twin breaker was brought out into the market.

Since I have two blank spaces in the panel just below the twin-breakers, should I change this all to single?

 

[racerboy]

Take the cover off should make quick work of figuring it out. Turn the power of to the panel if you don’t feel safe. Post a picture

Will do this tomorrow morning.

Thanks for offering to help.

 

[TRWham]

I would replace the single poles feeding the heater with a 2 pole and use the single poles to replace one of the tandems. Then you just need 2 more single poles to retire the other tandem.

 

[racerboy]

Here is a photo of the panel with the cover removed. I have two blank spots, so it would seem to me that I could follow the suggestion of converting the two twin breakers back to ingles, and then use the two blank spots.



I have another 30A breaker on the left side that I do not know what it controls. I believe it might be a box I have in the ceiling for the next lift.

I think the black and white wires that are taped in the bottom of the box go to a couple of other 230v outlets on the back wall, but they have no power to them. Perhaps he installed them (the wires and outlets) but had no 30A breaker to actually connect them to the sub panel. Of course, if I switch out the twin breakers with singles, I won’t have any blanks left. Would it be possible to have both of the feeds for the twin breakers go to a single, or is that a no-no?


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[Innovate1]

Kind of hard to follow your descriptions... You aren't converting a twin to singles, you are taking two singles used as a dual and using them as singles as they should be used (which is a good plan). Not sure what you mean by "Would it be possible to have both of the feeds for the twin breakers go to a single, or is that a no-no?" Can you explain that in more detail?

If you want some blank spaces for expansion you could add a subpanel or replace this one with a bigger one.

 

[JohnKal]

Bottom right double pole 30A looks like there’s two leads under one lug.
I believe it’s marked COMP on your panel box.

 

[racerboy]

Kind of hard to follow your descriptions... You aren't converting a twin to singles, you are taking two singles used as a dual and using them as singles as they should be used (which is a good plan). Not sure what you mean by "Would it be possible to have both of the feeds for the twin breakers go to a single, or is that a no-no?" Can you explain that in more detail?

If you want some blank spaces for expansion you could add a subpanel or replace this one with a bigger one.

The skinny 20A twin breakers each have a single black wire going to them. I guess I was wondering if there was a way to put in the normal size breaker, but still have both black wires inserted into a single breaker. My apologies if I’m not using the correct terms. I get the feeling the recommendation is remove the twin breaker and add a single pole 20A in its place that feeds one of the circuits, and then use one of the blank spaces for another single pole breaker for the other circuit on the skinny twin. I would do this twice, to eliminate both of the skinny twin breakers. Do I have that right?


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[racerboy]

Bottom right double pole 30A looks like there’s two leads under one lug.
I believe it’s marked COMP on your panel box.

I will take a shot of the side of the breaker to see how the leads are inserted. I’m assuming from your post that the leads (black and white) need to attach individually. If this is the case is it as easy as flipping the breaker off and then removing one lead and simply inserting it in the lower a lot? Do I need to turn off the 100A main breaker to do this or just the 30A one that I would be ‘fixing’?


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[Innovate1]

The skinny 20A twin breakers each have a single black wire going to them. I guess I was wondering if there was a way to put in the normal size breaker, but still have both black wires inserted into a single breaker. My apologies if I’m not using the correct terms. I get the feeling the recommendation is remove the twin breaker and add a single pole 20A in its place that feeds one of the circuits, and then use one of the blank spaces for another single pole breaker for the other circuit on the skinny twin. I would do this twice, to elongate both of the skinny twin breakers. Do I have that right?


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I understand the question now. A couple things to consider. Is the single breaker rated for two wires? Some are, some aren't. Some people seem to think that two wires is bad even if the breaker is rated for it. I think it is acceptable to splice the two wires into one that goes to the breaker to avoid the issue. The other thing is the load on each of the two wires. If they are both lightly loaded then combining them may still be under the breaker rating.

Best to put each wire to a separate breaker but you may be able to combine.

 

[Innovate1]

I will take a shot of the side of the breaker to see how the leads are inserted. I’m assuming from your post that the leads (black and white) need to attach individually. If this is the case is it as easy as flipping the breaker off and then removing one lead and simply inserting it in the lower a lot? Do I need to turn off the 100A main breaker to do this or just the 30A one that I would be ‘fixing’?


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I think the looks are decieving due to the camera angle. Probably ok. The safest thing when working with the panel is to shut it all off (the 100A). Shutting off the 30A is enough if you are only changing the wires on that breaker, there is nothing else to energize those terminals (most likely I think would be wiring errors in the building that cross circuits), and there is no possibility that you will brush one of the other live points in the panel.

 

[racerboy]

I confirmed that the bottom right 30A double breaker is wired properly. It must e been the camera angle, as someone suggested. I purchased four 20A single-pole breakers today (making sure they were Eaton). The plan is to replace the two twin breakers with the four single pole ones.
.


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