electrical issues after a flood

[woodzy]

OK, I know this is not a good idea, but my daughter's house had 2' of water in the first story in Houston. The following day after the water receded, they started to rip out the first 4 foot of drywall to start the drying out process. During the flood, they sent a movie of the water in the house and I told them to pull the main breaker since water and electricity does not mix.

Now four days later, the company shows up to install dehumidifiers, and fans to help dry out the entire structure. During running, the main breaker would trip but none of the individual breakers would trip. I had them turn off all the breakers and one by one only turn on the ones that were hooked up to the fans / dehumidifiers and leave the rest off.

Still, it would sometimes trip. They have a 100amp service and there is no way a few dehumidifiers and some fans would cause that to trip. Any ideas? I wish I was there as with an amp meter I probably could figure it out. Water never even got high enough to get close to the main panel but things like the central AC was completely under water at one time and all the outlets on the first floor.

So, do you have any ideas to check?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Something is backfeeding or is partially shorted.

Tommy

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What brand of panel?

Are the breakers all the correct brand?

How old is the panel?

I have seen cases where the branch breaker failed to trip when a short circuit occured and the main ended up tripping as the fault increased in amperage.

 

[woodzy]

I really wish I had some more info as they are doing so many things at once - cars under water, dog an cat need a place to stay, logging stuff for the insurance company. Cutting out carpet.

He did send me this picture last night if it helps.




I'm thinking there is some junction box that was below the water line that still has some moisture in it and causing problems.

They were somewhat successful by only using the GFI outlets in kitchen and bath. This might allow the rest of the system to dry out over time. I'm thinking they need to replace the main panel as it looks a little sketch when I was down there just a few days before the flood happened.

The real issue is new kids starting out in a city 1000 miles from their parents..

 

[reader2580]

If a branch circuit still has water in it shouldn't the individual breaker trip and not the main breaker?

 

[Norcal]

Replace that POS Zinsco/ Sylvania panel, the main is high dollar & they are obsolete plus they are troublesome.

 

[nh_yota]

If a branch circuit still has water in it shouldn't the individual breaker trip and not the main breaker?

Yes in theory, but things don't always work the way they should, especially when they're old or they have different trip curves.

 

[nadogail]

If a branch circuit still has water in it shouldn't the individual breaker trip and not the main breaker?

Yes they should, Should and Does are not always the same.

 

[manwithtools]

I'll say this, the dehumidifiers and fans they are using are not what we are typically used to seeing. The ones the remediation companies use can draw 15 amps for single dehu. and 5 amps for a blower. It adds up and they will try to plug them into separate circuits. I still would expect the total load to be below 100 amps, it could be the main is old and not up to the task particularly given its a Zinsco/ Sylvania

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I really wish I had some more info as they are doing so many things at once - cars under water, dog an cat need a place to stay, logging stuff for the insurance company. Cutting out carpet.

He did send me this picture last night if it helps.




I'm thinking there is some junction box that was below the water line that still has some moisture in it and causing problems.

They were somewhat successful by only using the GFI outlets in kitchen and bath. This might allow the rest of the system to dry out over time. I'm thinking they need to replace the main panel as it looks a little sketch when I was down there just a few days before the flood happened.

The real issue is new kids starting out in a city 1000 miles from their parents..

Well theres their problem right there. They have a shitsco(Zinsco/Zylvania) panel.

Those are known to have numerous problems including branch breakers not tripping when theres a fault.

The fault current got high enough for the main to trip!

Tell them to replace that panel stat.

U will also need someone to go through the electrical and find which circuits have issues as the new panel will surely trip!

If a branch circuit still has water in it shouldn't the individual breaker trip and not the main breaker?

Not the case for ****** Zinsco panels...

 

[CoogarXR]

The 100A main in my detached garage has tripped a few times when running nothing but a window AC. The branch circuit that it's on doesn't trip. I know that branch breaker can trip though, I bound up a circular saw while running the AC and tripped it.

I know this post offers nothing helpful, other than saying it can happen.

This is a Square D box too.

 

[woodzy]

Thanks for all the comments - in googling the panel, it appears you are all correct. I will address this with them and have them put it on the list to be done soon. The problem is, many people need help in that area and trying to get people "qualified and skilled" lined up and show up is a daunting task.

When this is over, they will understand how the system works or doesn't work.

 

[Pwrgeek]

I'm surprised they still have power. Usually it is standard practice to go pull the meters on any structure that has had more than 6" of water in it until it is re inspected. If they do get the meter pulled the city/county is going to require all new outlets and branch circuit conductors for anything that got wet so that would be an ideal time to get the panel done as well.


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[Milton Shaw]

Outlets fill with mud that conducts electricity. You must replace all outlets and switches that got wet. They are short circuits and a fire fixing to start. In 1977 in a flood in Ky when the power company reapplied power to the houses a lot of them burned down within 24 hours. Homeowners insurance would cover fire but not fire caused by flood damage unless you had flood insurance, which nobody had.

 

[woodzy]

Update: Adjuster showed up on Saturday and said to replace all outlets / boxes that got water in them. He said the wire should be fine. The central AC unit which was only 6 months said it would be replaced. In reality, anything under the flood line is to be replaced with the exception of the tile floor - they only pay for cleaning / re-sealing. Lower cabinets replaced but upper cabinets will not be replaced.

Kids call out the A/C guy and he looked at the outside unit and said it really is OK to be used, only needed to clean some stuff and turned it on. I'm concerned about long term effects on this being submerged... They wanted it on to help dry out the house.

 

[Falcon67]

Outlets fill with mud that conducts electricity. You must replace all outlets and switches that got wet. They are short circuits and a fire fixing to start. In 1977 in a flood in Ky when the power company reapplied power to the houses a lot of them burned down within 24 hours. Homeowners insurance would cover fire but not fire caused by flood damage unless you had flood insurance, which nobody had.

This 100%. Helped a friend after the Kingwood flood back in the 90s. Everything electrical was junk after exposure to that mud/water mix. That stuff is not a normal compound IMHO. It gets into and on to things and won't come off. It smells, it's conductive and ruins everything it gets into.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 that EVERYTHING below water line has to go. Only thing you save are stud framing that you wash down with Clorox or other disinfectant to kill mold.

Siding, sheetrock, wiring, insulation . . . . it all comes out if it got wet.

BIL had flood that filled his basement with about 4 ft of water. Piano floating out of walk-out basement sliding glass door was sight I'll never forget. Also Apple Macintosh computer floating across the yard. All was gutted.

OP . . . . bite bullet now and run on generator until Zinsco panel can be yanked out and re-wired after all wet wiring is gutted. No short-cuts. Start with new panel and only connect circuits that have absolutely no flooded wiring. Essentially all that needs re-wired.

 

[Pwrgeek]

Update: Adjuster showed up on Saturday and said to replace all outlets / boxes that got water in them. He said the wire should be fine. The central AC unit which was only 6 months said it would be replaced. In reality, anything under the flood line is to be replaced with the exception of the tile floor - they only pay for cleaning / re-sealing. Lower cabinets replaced but upper cabinets will not be replaced.



Kids call out the A/C guy and he looked at the outside unit and said it really is OK to be used, only needed to clean some stuff and turned it on. I'm concerned about long term effects on this being submerged... They wanted it on to help dry out the house.

If the wire is Romex it is standard practice to replace the wire as well. The paper filler will have wicked water up into the jacket and will have started corroding the ground wire.

http://www.southwire.com/support/GuidelinesForHandlingWaterDamagedElecWireAndCable.htm

http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/guidelines-handling-water-damaged-elect-equip.pdf

 

[woodzy]

Just wanted to give an update. A few weeks ago, I flew my son to Houston to replace the electrical panel (based on all your suggestions), and also replace all the outlets, wire, and while he was there he added additional outlets, can lights, and switches to other areas they wished they had some. He also ran additional outlets in the garage. All of this was done in 2.5 days and he still had time to party after it was finished. Now they can start to rebuild the walls and start to get the place back to normal.

Thanks for your help and here is a picture of the finished panel (well almost)

 

[nadogail]

Thanks for the update. Looks like things are under control..

 

[lbperry]

How did the A/C work out.? If it'll make you feel better, my daughters gas pack unit was completely flooded in the Nashville flooding a few years ago. A/C guy had to replace all the underfloor ducting because it was full of water but after he cleaned up the A/C unit it cranked back up and has been running ever since. Hope your folks come out as well.
Good Luck

 

[woodzy]

A/C worked great - the A/C guy just made sure it was all dried and put power to it and it worked. It was just replaced last year.