Electrical Mystery need advice

[Hmrhead]

I am helping a neighbor fix up his garage. For added safety he wants to install GFI plugs in the garage. Here is the mystery, we turned off the breakers to the garage to do the change out. Came to do the one mounted in the backwall of the garage, in the wall between house and garage, and it was still hot. We figured it must be tied to one of the house breakers. Plugged in a radio and yelled at each other while he tripped the breakers to see which one it belonged to. Well its not. We even tripped the main and shut the whole house down and it was still hot! Only thing we can figure is that this was a temp. outlet during construction(house is approx. 25 yrs old) and never unhooked. Looking for advice on how to tie this into a breaker. We rock, paper, sissor to see who would do a hot switch to the new GFI outlet, but decided against until we got more info.

Thanks

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Is there a disconnect both inside and outside the house? If so, which one are you turning off... the inside one?

Other possibility is that some panels have a upper section that is hot all the time, and does not have a disconnect, the main being in the middle of the panel, and everything below that is cut off with the main. I've never actually seen one, but have seen pics of then right here on this board.

You are going to have to trace that circuit back to where it begins.

Charles

 

[rodnok1]

Sounds like there is a subpanel or breakers in main meter panel outside. I bet you find other outlets around the house the same way.

 

[mustangmccance]

is this a joke? because I saw this on great goof-ups in one of my magazines. lol. the radio had batteries in it.
I am sure you did not use a radio with batteries but I could not resist commenting on that because I thought it was so funny when I read about it in my magazine.

 

[Hmrhead]

is this a joke? because I saw this on great goof-ups in one of my magazines. lol. the radio had batteries in it.
I am sure you did not use a radio with batteries but I could not resist commenting on that because I thought it was so funny when I read about it in my magazine.

Not a joke, and the radio did not have batteries. I read about the same thing in the Great Goofs page from Family handyman magazine as well and made sure. Had I not had that magazine I might not have checked the radio. I usually use a light but since the distance throught the house to the panel in the basement is pretty far we opted to use a radio. Tonight we are going to check all of his outlets to see if any others stay hot when we turn off the main breaker. Tracing back to the panel is going to be difficult as the basement is fully finished. It truly is a strange situation.

 

[mustangmccance]

I figured you had but that seemed so much like a bonehead move I would do I decided to comment on it. btw that is exactly where I read about it.

 

[Mattlt]

Try one of those $10 non-contact voltage detectors to see if that will aid in tracing the wires upstream. Try this with the main breaker turned off so you don't get any "stray voltage" from other circuits.

Worth a try...

 

[Hmrhead]

is this a joke? because I saw this on great goof-ups in one of my magazines. lol. the radio had batteries in it.
I am sure you did not use a radio with batteries but I could not resist commenting on that because I thought it was so funny when I read about it in my magazine.

Not a joke, and the radio did not have batteries. I read about the same thing in the Great Goofs page from Family handyman magazine as well and made sure. Had I not had that magazine I might not have checked the radio. I usually use a light but since the distance throught the house to the panel in the basement is pretty far we opted to use a radio. Tonight we are going to check all of his outlets to see if any others stay hot when we turn off the main breaker. Tracing back to the panel is going to be difficult as the basement is fully finished. It truly is a strange situation.

 

[tdkkart]

Use a light bulb, some radios will run for several seconds after being unplugged(unplugged, not shut off with the switch), more than enough time to say "nope, wrong one".

 

[snyder]

Use a light bulb, some radios will run for several seconds after being unplugged(unplugged, not shut off with the switch), more than enough time to say "nope, wrong one".

Yep, The one in my garage will play till I close and lock the door after I unplug it...

 

[scelectrician]

One thing you might want to check is to see if the plug is not tied to the main breaker, have seen this many times when a person does not have a spare breaker or the room to install a breaker......but I have been to a house where we pull the meter and there was a plug still hot, the reason was the houses where cookie cutter homes and they had gotten a permit for power on the house next to them so they ran a piece of romex to the house next door and they buried it where the yard could get done, well it was never disconnected

 

[nehog]

The age of this house is about right for one of those boxes where the main breaker doesn't disconnect all the sub-breakers. I'd post a (clear, in focus) picture of the main box (opened) and let's have a look at it.

 

[tool whore]

I too have seen the romex next door as well as to neighboring buildings. I have also seen it with water, where a water line was ran underground from an old house that was later demolished and then the line was brought up next to the new house that was later built. The home had a swimming pool located in the back yard. The only cost to fill it each year was the chemicals and the hose. Crazy.

 

[Hmrhead]

Okay mystery solved, neighbor got nervous called another friend that works for the utility company. High enough up to send a lineman out yesterday right away. Lineman checks panel, does basically all the same things we did but with a fancy tester. He is confused as well. Goes to truck gets out very cool looking device used to detect underground line breaks turns off main breaker and begins scan of house, not the proper use of the tool but works for this purpose. Tracks line through houses back to near the panel. Goes outside and pulls the meter. Turns out it was an unbreakered hook up direct to the meter. Most likley left over from original construction. The lineman was very cool, he rerouted and tied it into the panel now my neighbor only needs to get a new breaker. Cost: one bottle of water. I am now trying to get an introduction to my neighbor's friend at the utility should the need arise.

 

[Teach]

WINNER! Don't you love it when things work out like this?

 

[1Garageman]

That is so crazy!!!!!!!!!
I have never heard of anything like that happening before.

 

[Hmrhead]

The lineman that came out said its not common but more homes have this situation than people are aware because few people ever change their outlets. Most common place he said was the garage as thats where the trades set up to keep out of the weather.

 

[1Garageman]

Question, does this mean that you never got billed for the electricity that you used out of that wall socket that was hooked up to that line?

 

[Hmrhead]

Question, does this mean that you never got billed for the electricity that you used out of that wall socket that was hooked up to that line?

He got billed for the power he used, the outlet was connected directly to the meter lugs not before the meter. We asked the lineman if he had come across any that were tied into the incoming line prior to the meter and said hes only come across intentional illegal hook ups jumping the meter.

 

[ddawg16]

Good thing I didn't suggest the short test......it's not unusual for some electricians to short an outlet so they can see what breaker is wired to it.

In your case, the results would not have been pretty.....

 

[cowboyjosh]

Good thing I didn't suggest the short test......it's not unusual for some electricians to short an outlet so they can see what breaker is wired to it.

In your case, the results would not have been pretty.....

they would have been welding thats for sure. BTW a non breaker ed anything is a big ole no no; at the same time its one of those situations that if folks knew everything that could be and likely is wrong in their homes, they'd be scared. My motto is "the ignorant homeowner is a happy homeowner".

 

[Falcon67]

Good thing I didn't suggest the short test......it's not unusual for some electricians to short an outlet so they can see what breaker is wired to it.

In your case, the results would not have been pretty.....

Ooooo. Scary. Worked in a modern 75,000 sq/ft building at one time. Was with the company when we had the building built. We'd been in there maybe 4-5 years when the assistant maintenance guy decided to work on the fridge plug in the break room. Hmm, can't find the breaker. He's like "I can fix this" and makes a nice jumper out of some 12g wire. Kaboom, knocks him on his ****, melts the socket and burns the wall. For some reason, that outlet went to some gosh-awful mondo power panel in the machine shop, tapped somewhere into something that maybe a short in a 10 ton press might not trip. I'm talking like 300' of run to get there from the wall socket. WTF. Bet he doesn't do that kind of "fix" anymore. The maint' sup was a sharp guy, he never did figure out how the electricians managed to do that. But they damn sure didn't bill us to fix it.

 

[srmofo]

In your case, the results would not have been pretty.....

It would have been pretty, like the fourth of july in your garage pretty.....the fire on the other hand is another story

 

[Hmrhead]

We originally talked about shorting the outlet and seeing which breaker popped. I'm gald we didn't.

 

[1Garageman]

Ooooo. Scary. Worked in a modern 75,000 sq/ft building at one time. Was with the company when we had the building built. We'd been in there maybe 4-5 years when the assistant maintenance guy decided to work on the fridge plug in the break room. Hmm, can't find the breaker. He's like "I can fix this" and makes a nice jumper out of some 12g wire. Kaboom, knocks him on his ****, melts the socket and burns the wall. For some reason, that outlet went to some gosh-awful mondo power panel in the machine shop, tapped somewhere into something that maybe a short in a 10 ton press might not trip. I'm talking like 300' of run to get there from the wall socket. WTF. Bet he doesn't do that kind of "fix" anymore. The maint' sup was a sharp guy, he never did figure out how the electricians managed to do that. But they damn sure didn't bill us to fix it.

DAMN! My heart rate went up just reading that!

 

[porschedude996TT]

Good thing I didn't suggest the short test......it's not unusual for some electricians to short an outlet so they can see what breaker is wired to it.

In your case, the results would not have been pretty.....

****! or Bang!, one or both... Not Good

 

[comedyman809]

why dont you use a multi meter and verify that there is indeed 120v at the outlet.

then you can check the loadcenter and see what is live.

 

[comedyman809]

DAMN! My heart rate went up just reading that!

300' run for a 120v circuit is crazy to begin with. a sub should be a lot closer then that to pull off of.

sounds like half *** henry-the electrician is at it again!!!!