Electrical problem need help on... I'm lost

[taumac]

Ok here's what I got.
I got one feed line in to feed this
All neutral are together

The hall is a 3 way with a red runner

The center single has black going to living room fan.

The end is a dimmer with black going to light in dinning area.

There's another black in box that goes to kitchen lights which is part of a 3 way circuit.

The hot comes in and twisted to the kitchen black. There's also a Black wire butted there so it's the hot, kitchen feed and pigtail. That pig tail jumps over the the hall 3 way switch to the living fan switch and finally into the dimmer.

With all that said I wanted to remove dimmer to dining room cause I'm putting a fan in there. I got a single light single throw switch to run the fan and light kit. Note I didn't installed fan yet it's just sitting with open box with feeds wire nutted.


Here's the issue.
I took dimmer out and put in switch and tested to see if working and kitchen lights turn on/off when I flip switch on. I turn off lights stay on. Now I reinstalled the dimmer and kitchen lights stay on no problem no matter what I do with dimmer. On/Off full power/ low power. I even switched wires on switch but kitchen lights still flashed on and off. Any help would be helpful thanks.


BTW the kitchen fixture is a 6 light halogen unit.

 

[Mustang51js]

How many wires did you have on the switch. You should have two blacks and a ground

 

[Mustang51js]

And if you can get pictures it makes it much easier for us to troubleshoot

 

[taumac]

Yes 2 on back of dimmer and 2 screws on back of new switch. I only removed the dimmer and replaced it with a switch. After that The kitchen lights went crazy when I turn switch on where the dimmer was. ( now switch) I was at in laws house and button everything back up for the night. Wife took my truck my photo or would have snap a pic

 

[Mustang51js]

Possible loose wire when you pulled out switch,tough to figure out without testing,try and check to see if any of the wire nuts came loose or if you missed a wire that might have came off when pulling out switch

 

[pattenp]

Possible loose wire when you pulled out switch,tough to figure out without testing,try and check to see if any of the wire nuts came loose or if you missed a wire that might have came off when pulling out switch

This^^ You have a loose connection.

 

[taumac]

After first time i took box apart and with switches out tested them. Thinking something was lose or wired wrong. With all switch out of wall hanging i tested it with dimmer every circuit worked. Now I just take dimmer out and put switch in place and kitchen lights act up. Funny thing is if you pigtail off the feed to 3 switches, pigtail to the switch then to fixture them how is then switch effecting something upstream of it? Doesn't make sense

 

[pattenp]

Technically impossible if wired correctly. If the dimmer only has two wire connections and the new switch only has two wire connections then it's a simple swap of switches. If the dimmer turns the power on/off without any issues then the new switch should do the same. If the kitchen lights are switched separately then there is a loose connection or a wire is misplaced. What style of dimmer switch do you have? Push dial or toggle with slide dim, not that it should make a difference?

 

[taumac]

Exactly it shouldn't but with switch the kitchen lights act up. It's a push on/ off dial style dimmer.

Does it make difference if fixture hooked up in dining room ? The circuit/ run end. It's shouldn't make a difference. The switch I'm replacing the dimmer with is just a simple 15amp 120v single throw ( no 3way) decorator switch( wide toggle)

 

[pattenp]

The fixture not being installed should make no difference if dining room ceiling box just has the 2 wires plus a ground coming in? So there are no other wire connections in the dining room ceiling box?

You do realize this is somewhat futile trying to trouble shoot over the internet.

 

[taumac]

Yep, no others. I know I thought with many people on here I would give a idea. If I can't figure it out why I'm just delete switch altogether.

 

[justsam]

You state kitchen light is a 6 light halogen fixture. Are these low voltage halogen? Is there a step down transformer someplace? Is Romex being used to carry low voltage AC?

 

[taumac]

You state kitchen light is a 6 light halogen fixture. Are these low voltage halogen? Is there a step down transformer someplace? Is Romex being used to carry low voltage AC?

Believe low voltage with transformer in base of unit. Romex carry 110 volts.

 

[taumac]

Since not home or at inlaws here's a detail diagram of how wiring is

All whites, grounds are hooked together. Now all I change from dimmer ( dining room ) to switch and that cause lights in kitchen to flash on and off. Now if I switch power off on dining room ( with switch not dimmer) the kitchen works fine. It's only when flip power on ( dining room) that kitchen starts flashing. I can take pic later but diagram is exact what pic would be


Only thing I saw wrong or didn't like is taking one wire from where hot, kitchen, pigtail is wire nutted and joint from the 3 way to living room to dining room switch.

 

[Mustang51js]

I bet it has something to do with the 3 way and neutral. Usually when a light flashes like you say it's a loose neutral. Double check all the connections and see if any wires are back stabbed in the switches. Check the wire nuts because sometimes they look connected but the end breaks off or was poorly twisted and doesn't make a good connection.

 

[taumac]

I'm thinking something is missing. I got old fixture out other night and realized I need a bracket for fan. Last night I wanted to install bracket and fan but only had enough time to do electrical in the box. So right now only wires that aren't connected is neutral and hot to dining room ceiling where the fan will be. I don't thing that's possible but it could. With that said it works fine ( as it sits currently ) with dimmer but not switch. When I get there tonight I take pics and recheck wires for a missing neutral.

 

[Mustang51js]

You may have a feed through in the ceiling box with that causing the problem

 

[taumac]

Ceiling

Wall

Opened

 

[taumac]

The fixture not being installed should make no difference if dining room ceiling box just has the 2 wires plus a ground coming in? So there are no other wire connections in the dining room ceiling box?

You do realize this is somewhat futile trying to trouble shoot over the internet.

Exactly it shouldn't but with switch the kitchen lights act up. It's a push on/ off dial style dimmer.

Does it make difference if fixture hooked up in dining room ? The circuit/ run end. It's shouldn't make a difference. The switch I'm replacing the dimmer with is just a simple 15amp 120v single throw ( no 3way) decorator switch( wide toggle)

Problem solved. I hook up ceiling fan and open up where switches are and put the switch in. Hit the beaker back on and BAAM all is ok. I guess the fixture needed to be hooked up. I can't explain it. Doesn't make sense but my only thought is that when all the neutrals where twisted that the dining room must have been below the kitchen and without the fixture in dining room wired up I guess that's where missing wire was.

 

[taumac]

I bet it has something to do with the 3 way and neutral. Usually when a light flashes like you say it's a loose neutral. Double check all the connections and see if any wires are back stabbed in the switches. Check the wire nuts because sometimes they look connected but the end breaks off or was poorly twisted and doesn't make a good connection.

You where right about a missing or loose netural

 

[Mustang51js]

Glad it worked out,loose neutrals can cause a fire pretty quick

 

[toplessHO]

heres one for ya on neutrals

friend of family calls and says got problems with outlets that lost power.
He then says the outside light was off too.
So I check outlets and they have power but no neutral(very dangerous)
light also has power and had neutral on one side.
I asked who had put the "new" halogen light in and he told me he had.
Short version was he had tied one of the white wires on the light to one
white wire coming from fixture and the other white wire to the other white
from the fixture. So the neutral connection was in series with the lamp.
When the lamp burned out it was like an inline fuse. The only thing that made it work was when something was plugged in to the outlets that created a load.
Very fortunately no one was hurt on this. I told him
"Wirings no hobby get a qualified person next time"

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why does your 3-way have a pigtail that goes to a taped wire nut with 2 wires coming out of it?

Also, looks like the wires are using the push in terminals(backstabbed) on the 3-way. I would change this. Those connections fail all the time!

 

[taumac]

No backstabbed wires all on the screw terminals. The taped nut was power in and the kitchen with pigtail to left switch. I had a small wire nut at time and taped it so no bare wires showed. I changed it out for a bigger nut after pic was taken

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Opened

No backstabbed wires all on the screw terminals. The taped nut was power in and the kitchen with pigtail to left switch. I had a small wire nut at time and taped it so no bare wires showed. I changed it out for a bigger nut after pic was taken

Huh?

Power in to all 3 switches?

That would be the wire going to the black/common screw on the 3-way thats daisy chained to the other 2 switches...

And the wire on the top of the middle switch definitely looks backstabbed as theres no wire under the side screw...same for the 3-way...

 

[taumac]

From that picture and angle definitely see what your saying but i didn't. I don't like back stabbing switches cause it's a PIA to release the wire if needed and it's not as secure. I also don't like daisy chain wires like that. It works and it might or might not be correct idk but I don't like it. All the wiring here is from 1986 when the house was built and doesn't look IMO to ever be touched. My inlaws just moved in about 4 months ago to this home.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so what does the 2 wires coming out of the taped wire nut go to? The third one is connected to the traveler terminal on the 3 way...Im just trying to understand why theres 2 wires coming off the traveler terminal on the 3-way...Both traveler terminals on that switch should be going to the other 3-way switch on the circuit...

 

[taumac]

Ok so what does the 2 wires coming out of the taped wire nut go to? The third one is connected to the traveler terminal on the 3 way...Im just trying to understand why theres 2 wires coming off the traveler terminal on the 3-way...Both traveler terminals on that switch should be going to the other 3-way switch on the circuit...

Ok the taped nut has the hot from panel and kitchen main fixture and pigtail. The 3 way for hall gets power from the pigtail and rest of that 3 way is down the hall.

 

[Mustang51js]

Ok so what does the 2 wires coming out of the taped wire nut go to? The third one is connected to the traveler terminal on the 3 way...Im just trying to understand why theres 2 wires coming off the traveler terminal on the 3-way...Both traveler terminals on that switch should be going to the other 3-way switch on the circuit...

Now that I look at the pic more closely ,either it's wired wrong or they used a 3 way switch as a single pole

 

[C96]

Ok the taped nut has the hot from panel and kitchen main fixture and pigtail. The 3 way for hall gets power from the pigtail and rest of that 3 way is down the hall.

Lol…None of this **** is making any sense.

The wiring shown in the picture is all screwed-up…sorry

 

[taumac]

Ok well what I should do to fix it?

 

[justsam]

First, is the 3 way actually working?

Based on the wiring shown, it will not be working properly.

 

[taumac]

First, is the 3 way actually working?



Based on the wiring shown, it will not be working properly.

Yep everything works fine. kitchen lights worked just fine after holing up ceiling fan in dining.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

At first glance at this thread before the pics were posted it was hard to tell what was wrong. Just the reason why pics are WAY better.

First thing we need to know is which wire is the incoming hot/supply!

For the 3 way, it should be the common/black screw that is daisy chained to the other switches. The only wire that should be daisy chained would be the hot. The way its wired now doesnt make any sense unless u have your wires mixed up and the daisy chained wire IS the incoming supply to the switches...

 

[Mustang51js]

By looking at pic and looking at diagram you drew it looks like the 3 way is set up as a single pole switch, it's hard to tell in the pic which terminal the backstabbed one is on for the black on 3way. Is the wire that is wrapped on the black screw of 3 way a continuous wire or is it two wires under one screw. If you say it's a 3 way I would think the black that is back stabbed should be on the black screw and the black coming off the same wire as the red should be on the other side. I am almost thinking the way it is now where it only works with fan installed is somehow back feeding the neutral or hot to make the other stuff work.

 

[taumac]

At first glance at this thread before the pics were posted it was hard to tell what was wrong. Just the reason why pics are WAY better.



First thing we need to know is which wire is the incoming hot/supply!



For the 3 way, it should be the common/black screw that is daisy chained to the other switches. The only wire that should be daisy chained would be the hot. The way its wired now doesnt make any sense unless u have your wires mixed up and the daisy chained wire IS the incoming supply to the switches...

One of the wires in the taped wire nut is the hot feed. So then everything in the wire nut with the tape is now HOT. Idk why the kitchen feed is in that box but it is.

 

[taumac]

Holy **** I saw something and ran down to in laws ok I 100 % percent apologize for saying things weren't back stabbed in sorry ok here's so pics

 

[taumac]

3 way switch

Left 3 3 way
Middle living room
Right is dining room
Yellow nut runs to kitchen
Red nut hot feed it

Daisy chain jumper

 

[taumac]

Ok everything hook back up best pic I can manage

Bye the kitchen light

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok that looks better whew.

Having the supply on the traveler screw was screwed up!(pun intended)...

Supply should be to the black screw, and u can daisy chain it like it was(saves room) or make 3 pigtails...