Electrical question.....Dead circuit

[Kevin54]

I have worked for two days now trying to find why I have three outlets that are dead. Is there something made that can trace hidden wires?

I have a Fluke Multi Meter, I have a Sperry Hot Stick and I have a Sperry Outlet and GFCI tester.

What had happened was that I had a heat gun plugged in, I plugged in something else and popped a circuit, or so I thought. When I built the garage in '99, I had some help wiring it and some of the outlets were back stabbed. I had this happen once before and found out that it screwed up an outlet internally with no visible signs of problems other than the tester showed on open Neutral. The problem I am having now is just like a lot of things, I can't remember how I ran the wiring. My garage used to be two bays, one for my '62 Impala, then the other bay to tinker with ****. Both sides were divided by a wall.

The garage has a closet that was the width of the one small bay and I have / had that bay on one circuit. The working bay is on 5 circuits. I thought that all of my outlets in the small bay were wired together. I did add an outlet up high for my traffic light, but I did this by just tying into the outlet below it. The lower outlet has two wires, the traffic light outlet has two wires, and the third outlet on the wall has one wire, so that is the end of the circuit. But that is where I plugged the heat gun in when something popped. So now, all three outlets on the one wall are dead.

I change the outlets on either side of the lower wall outlet hoping that one of them was the culprit but to no avail. I also went around and pulled out multiple outlets and swapped them out just in case, plus I found about three back stabbed outlets that needed changed.

Now here is another problem that I am really curious about........I killed the power to the small bay that I am having problems with. I checked some outlets with an Ohm Meter to try and track the wiring. The leads are only so long though. So what I did, where I had to check the outlet on one side of the wall from an outlet on the other side was to plug in an extension cord as sort of a long lead. In theory, it should work to see if hot to hot is connected. What I found was that when I checked with the Ohm Meter, the hot and the ground mad connection. It's hard to explain, so I could make a sketch showing how things are. The circuit shows no power, but the Ohm Meter says the hot and ground are connected with the circuit breaker shut off. I know that the neutrals should read as all connected, but i wouldn't think the hots would.

I also went around to every single outlet with the Outlet Tester, and every one shows good, other than the three dead ones. I could tie into the dead end outlet to a hot, but I really don't want to do that if there is a problem somewhere else. That's why I would like to know if there is something that with all of the power killed to the complete garage that I can trace the wires in the wall. I'm not an electrical genius, but I can get by running wiring and circuits, so things are not hacked, or at least I didn't think they were until I found certain amount of back-stabbed outlets. What I have found of those have been swapped out with the wires ran to the side screws.

And the dead wall I have really has me baffled. When I built the garage, I had the small bay all on one circuit. Later on I added a closet. From where I did have an outer wall outlet, now became an outlet in the closet. When I built the closet, I added an outlet outside of the closet and am almost 100% sure that I tied into the sidewall outlet, and ran around to the outer wall closet. Then it went up to a higher up outlet, then from that one over to one under my desk.

So if anyone knows of some sort of a tester that is maybe wireless but will send a signal so I can trace wires, PLEASE let me know. And if it isn't too expensive, I may buy one to have around.

Another thing too is that I have two outside floodlights 300w. When I put those in a number of years ago, I sort of remember how I ran them and tied into an outlet in the ceiling. I then ran wiring from the rear outside flood on the back to the flood on the front, plus ran the wires down to two separate switches. For some reason, those two floods don't work now. I don't know if the two are related or not as the floods are very rarely used. I'm thinking that the two floods are a coincidence and not too worried about them at the moment.

And before anyone says that thinks are a hack job, they are not hacked. Any electrical that I have ran has always passed inspections. It's just that with this, a few things have been changed in the garage, and it's been almost 14 years since I have built the garage, so I don't remember how things were ran. That is the reason of asking about some sort of a tester that would work in tracing hidden wires. Also the Sperry Hotstick, if I put the prong into an outlet, it flashed brightly and gives off a signal showing electricity. If I put it on the neutral side, it may blink or beep once or twice. But if I run it along the wall, it is constantly going off in large areas. I can touch the end and it will blink and beep. So in my mind, it's not very good for tracing wires in a wall but is good enough to show that you have electricity somewhere.

Any help at all will be greatly appreciated. I don't normally have something like this I can't figure out, but this has the **** baffled out of me.

 

[Aceman]

I'm not going to read all that....that's ridiculous.

If you ran your wiring correctly, they should all be daisy chained one right after the other. It'll either be the first receptacle without power or the one right before it.

 

[eljefino]

Careful with that volt/ ohm meter; you could have a burnt wire that still passes a little and with the very high impedance of the meter get false good readings.

I agree that a back stabbed outlet overheated. Probably you made a "T" somewhere using both side screws and the back stabs too. So yank your cover plates and find boxes with three sets of wires coming in.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Have you determined if it is an open on the black (hot) wire or if its open on the neutral. Either one would show bad on tester but if you have an open neutral and still have power on hot then you could set yourself up to a good shock. Pull outlets until you find the bad one, either arcing or back stabbed and not making a connection.

 

[Zeke]

Kevin, there are non contact current detectors, I'm sure you know that. And there are circuit testers to be used with the power off and with it on. You can do a lot with a 9v battery, a spool of wire, a test light and some alligator clips.

But removing the outlets at each dead location would be my first move. I'd try to predict which outlet is before the first dead on and remove that. I'd then look for anything hot coming in so I could test the continuity to the next box. That is unless you find the problem after pulling out the devices.

You might have to go from different boxes to different boxes unless you know how the circuit is run. You might have gone from a wall box to a ceiling box and down again. Beware of other circuits still live. Beware that sometimes there can be a backfeed. Don't touch it unless you test it.

Edit: I have reread your novelette a few times and I guess I don't really have an answer. But you CAN do wonders with 9v batteries and wires, or extension cords.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have worked for two days now trying to find why I have three outlets that are dead. Is there something made that can trace hidden wires?

What you asked for

Extech 40180 Tone Generator and Amplifier Probe Circuit Finder Kit

Now, without spending that money, try this.

First, you have to be 100% certain the the circuit is dead. If you are not 110% certain which breaker controls the circuit, kill the main and work with no power in the house. If you don't do this YOU WILL GET HURT !

Get yourself a looong piece of wire. Long enough to reach from the farthest outlet all the way back to the main breaker panel. Start at the outlet farthest away. Put you multimeter in "continuity tester" mode. Insert 1 end of the long wire in the "hot" side of the outlet and the other into one of the meter probe connections. Go to the next outlet with the meter and the other probe. Plug in the hot side there. It should have continuity. Keep moving up the daisy chain. If they all the outlets have continuity, go back to the main panel. If you are certain of circuit and that breaker is off, check for continuity to the black wire.

If everything checks out, you should do the same for the neutral side, except TURN OFF THE MAIN BREAKER BEFORE YOU START.

It is highly unlikely to have a break in the middle of a wire (unless there is a hidden junction box). You may want to do the test with the receptacle pulled out from the wall and touching the appropriate screw.



BTW, this is pretty much the same procedure for low voltage wiring.

 

[justsam]

The circuit shows no power, but the Ohm Meter says the hot and ground are connected with the circuit breaker shut off. I know that the neutrals should read as all connected, but i wouldn't think the hots would.
.

Please make sure you have no loads or if lights on the same circuit that they are switched off. Any device plugged in or light switch on may indicate a "short" between hot and ground, or neutral for that matter. Incandescent bulbs in particular will show low DC resistance when cold, which you may see as a short. Solid state devices can also indicate a "short" if ohmmeter polarity is right. Since you have a Fluke, what did the resistance read?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Have you determined if it is an open on the black (hot) wire or if its open on the neutral. Either one would show bad on tester but if you have an open neutral and still have power on hot then you could set yourself up to a good shock. Pull outlets until you find the bad one, either arcing or back stabbed and not making a connection.

Generally an open neutral will show around 65-67 volts across a plug

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

What you asked for

Extech 40180 Tone Generator and Amplifier Probe Circuit Finder Kit

Now, without spending that money, try this.

First, you have to be 100% certain the the circuit is dead. If you are not 110% certain which breaker controls the circuit, kill the main and work with no power in the house. If you don't do this YOU WILL GET HURT !

Get yourself a looong piece of wire. Long enough to reach from the farthest outlet all the way back to the main breaker panel. Start at the outlet farthest away. Put you multimeter in "continuity tester" mode. Insert 1 end of the long wire in the "hot" side of the outlet and the other into one of the meter probe connections. Go to the next outlet with the meter and the other probe. Plug in the hot side there. It should have continuity. Keep moving up the daisy chain. If they all the outlets have continuity, go back to the main panel. If you are certain of circuit and that breaker is off, check for continuity to the black wire.

If everything checks out, you should do the same for the neutral side, except TURN OFF THE MAIN BREAKER BEFORE YOU START.

It is highly unlikely to have a break in the middle of a wire (unless there is a hidden junction box). You may want to do the test with the receptacle pulled out from the wall and touching the appropriate screw.



BTW, this is pretty much the same procedure for low voltage wiring.

 

[rharman]

I've had good luck testing continuity with this. Beeps when circuit is complete so helpful when working across the room.

The tone generator mentioned by theoldwizard1 is good but a bit pricey. You *might* be able to trace through drywall with it though.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LYTTRK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[theoldwizard1]

Generally an open neutral will show around 65-67 volts across a plug

Any $5 outlet tester will pick up an open neutral or ground.

 

[Kevin54]

I'm not going to read all that....that's ridiculous.

If you ran your wiring correctly, they should all be daisy chained one right after the other. It'll either be the first receptacle without power or the one right before it.

Aceman....they are daisy chained together. This wall was added a year later after the garage was built, so somewhere this wall is "T" into a hot feed, but the wall is now dead. Can you remember how you did everything 14 years ago?

Have you determined if it is an open on the black (hot) wire or if its open on the neutral. Either one would show bad on tester but if you have an open neutral and still have power on hot then you could set yourself up to a good shock. Pull outlets until you find the bad one, either arcing or back stabbed and not making a connection.

Milton......I went around to every single outlet and checked them and all test good. I tested them with this and this. The second one is what I plugged into each outlet with the power on. Each outlet tested good except for the dead wall. Also where I had lights above in the garage, they were replaced with fluorescents a few years back. I got a good deal on them but they had the plug ins, so I swapped the regular lights out for plugs for the fluorescents. Every one of those outlets check good. Now when I use the hotstick, it's so sensitive that it gives false readings. It will show a hot wire in a wall where I know there is no power or even a wire for that matter, but will act normal when plugged into the hot side and neutral side of the outlet.

Kevin, there are non contact current detectors, I'm sure you know that. And there are circuit testers to be used with the power off and with it on. You can do a lot with a 9v battery, a spool of wire, a test light and some alligator clips.

But removing the outlets at each dead location would be my first move. I'd try to predict which outlet is before the first dead on and remove that. I'd then look for anything hot coming in so I could test the continuity to the next box. That is unless you find the problem after pulling out the devices.

You might have to go from different boxes to different boxes unless you know how the circuit is run. You might have gone from a wall box to a ceiling box and down again. Beware of other circuits still live. Beware that sometimes there can be a backfeed. Don't touch it unless you test it.

Edit: I have reread your novelette a few times and I guess I don't really have an answer. But you CAN do wonders with 9v batteries and wires, or extension cords.

Zeke......I have already done that. I located a few back stabbed outlets. I changed out probably 10 outlets with new ones hoping that one was fried inside but to no avail. I ran into something similar one other time but the bad outlet showed an open neutral. I have pulled outlets, changed outlets, and tested outlets every which way there is and I can not find what this wall is dead or where it is "T" into. With all of the power off on that side of the garage, it kills all of the outlets on that side and it kills the ceiling lights on that side.

Where my traffic light is, I checked ohms from hot to hot on the upper and lower outlet as I know they are tied together. I checked ohms from hot to neutral and got nothing. The leads aren't long enough to check the outlet from inside the closet around to the outlet on the dead wall. So I thought, why not use the extension cord as a long lead. I plugged the cord in, then I checked with the VO Meter set on ohms from what would be the hot side of the extension cord to the dead wall plug outside of the closet. I am getting continuity on both the hot and the neutral side. Mind you, this is with no power to the circuit.

I'll put a half-assed sketch up to see if it makes things more understandable. Also when I show two wire or say two wire of four wires, I am not counting the ground wire.

The three outlets shown with the circle are the dead outlets on the wall I am talking about.

 

[RickP]

Kevin, any chance one of the wires got nicked by a nail during construction of that wall? After many years, it may have just failed recently because of a high amp load.

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin, any chance one of the wires got nicked by a nail during construction of that wall? After many years, it may have just failed recently because of a high amp load.

I don't think it would have happened, as I had nail plates covering the wire holes in the studs, but then again, anything is possible. I'm getting ready to go back out and give it another shot today. This will be the third day of messing with it. Maybe third times a charm.

I know when I had something like this happen a couple years ago, it was showing an open neutral on the outlets when checked and I traced it back to a backstabbed outlet, but it fried something inside the outlet. The only reason I know it fried the inside somehow was I pulled the wires out of the back and fastened them to the side screws and it still showed an open neutral. I replaced the outlet and all was fine.

I went back and pulled up pictures of the garage right after it was built that I had on digital. I THOUGHT I put the wall in a year later. The wife said I built the wall at the same time as the garage because she decided she wanted a closet. I sort of remember that now. And in the old pic, the outlets are there, so they were probably ran all at the same time. The only thing that I have changed was when I tore the wall out between the two bays. I had to move a switch, and the wires for the outlets that I previously had in the wall, were moved to a stub wall that I had to build, but those would not affect the wall that the outlets are dead in. I may have to make a trip to the local electrical shop and see if I can get a tracer that makes an audio sound to trace the wires that way. I don't want to end up back feeding something by accident.

 

[Kevin54]

Maybe these pics make more sense than the sketch. I also asked the wife again, and she said all the walls were built at the same time and all of the electric was ran at the same time. The first pic shows the two outlets on the front wall, and the last pic shows the other outlet that is the end of the line on the r.h. side of the door. The light switch controls the closet lights. After I tore the wall out, the wires for the outlets I had on the wall we done away with other than I pulled the wire back and added in two for my computer.

 

[pattenp]

Buy this... find your wire... then return it for a refund. Amazon is great about returns.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ACF6QTC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Kevin54]

Buy this... find your wire... then return it for a refund. Amazon is great about returns.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ACF6QTC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Damn, now that would be the cat's *** right there. I don't think I'll buy one and return it though because sure a ****, as soon as I decided to do that, Karma would kick my **** somehow and I'd end up owning it.

I've killed the power except for the lights on the one side of the garage and have been pulling out every outlet. Then I pulled all the wires off of the outlets and have been checking with an Ohm Meter for a dead short. I have some of the wires to where I know they come from or are going.

I started outside of the closet and worked my way into the closet. I found one outlet, or one wire that I was getting a tone or signal through the Ohm meter, so I went to the next outlet and the same thing, each outlet was setting off a tone when touching the black and white wire to the leads of the Ohm meter. Now mind you that I have unhooked the hot wire (black) for the outlets of the bay at the breaker panel box. I decided to pull two more outlets where my computer desk is at. After I unplugged things, I pulled the outlets. I went back in the closet and checked the wires where i was getting continuity between the black and white wire and now I wasn't getting a signal. I haven't pulled the wires off of the outlets yet. I know the computer has been working fine, but I had the transformer for the speakers laying in front of me, so for shits and giggles I probed the transformer itself on the electrical prongs. I got a signal through the Ohm Meter. The transformer is one that is internally grounded, but there shouldn't be any continuity between the two prongs.

I still have three more outlets to pull to check, start tracing things back one by one with the speaker transformer unplugged. I know that when I hooked the speakers up, it sounded like some small feedback in the speakers until the jack on back of the computer was plugged completely in.

 

[edboyles]

Kevin
If you can't find your T from the wires in the receptacles, do you have access to a small scope to look inside the wall to get to the right area?

 

[foolishpride]

Kevin, if you have anything like a motor, incandescent light, or a transformer still plugged in on the circuits you are having problems with, you will definitely read continuity between the hots and ground.

Your Grounds are tied to Neutral at the panel. So unless you have the Hot wires pulled off of the breakers on the bad circuits, and the Neutrals of these circuits removed from the panel, you will read continuity.

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin, if you have anything like a motor, incandescent light, or a transformer still plugged in on the circuits you are having problems with, you will definitely read continuity between the hots and ground.

Your Grounds are tied to Neutral at the panel. So unless you have the Hot wires pulled off of the breakers on the bad circuits, and the Neutrals of these circuits removed from the panel, you will read continuity.

I did pull the hot off at the breaker. The grounds and neutrals are still hooked up. Where I was getting continuity is from the transformer for the speakers. I'm getting continuity between the two prongs. And when it was plugged into one of the wall outlets that I hadn't taken out yet, it was giving continuity readings on all of the other outlets that are chained together. Once I unplugged the transformer, all of the outlets show no continuity. But that hasn't solved my dead wall outlets yet.

 

[Kevin54]

I'm actually beginning to think that there is a broke wire in the wall when it shorted. I have replaced every outlet that is remotely close to the dead circuit. All in all, I think I pulled, and replaced 14 outlets today. Every single outlet and light coming off of the breaker checks good except for the three dead ones on the front wall. I know how they are chained together, I solved the problem with getting an Ohm reading between the hot and neutral as that is caused or was caused by the speaker transformer.

I added corrugated tin on the side wall and I have more to add on the front wall. I think I'll pick up the tin tomorrow, then I'm going to remove two pieces from the side wall, then cut a section of drywall out at outlet height, and see what the hell is actually going on. Three days of screwing with this has got me beat down.

 

[TiredDude]

Buy this... find your wire... then return it for a refund. Amazon is great about returns.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ACF6QTC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Wow, the reviews on this basically say it is junk. My guess is you would be returning it regardless......

 

[eljefino]

You're assuming a short when IMO you more likely have a charred/oxidized connection that wigged out when a lot of current went through it.

Backstabs are the best/worst for this as the spring is notoriously loose and metal-to-metal contact area small.

 

[Kevin54]

You're assuming a short when IMO you more likely have a charred/oxidized connection that wigged out when a lot of current went through it.

Backstabs are the best/worst for this as the spring is notoriously loose and metal-to-metal contact area small.

I've changed outlets everywhere on that circuit, to no avail. I've traced, tracked, bitched and cussed. I've checked every outlet with the plug in tester and every outlet shows good other than the three on the dead wall. I put all brand new outlets in and did not reuse any old ones in case I was getting a false reading on one. I'm almost positive about the one I "T"d off of but no current going to the lower wall outlet. I pulled every outlet out of the wall to check and see if there were any wire nuts inside, which there are not. I don't use junction boxes. The only place I had any wire nuts were inside of the box where the closet lights are mounted. The ceiling lights on the circuit run straight over from the breaker box to the switch and up to the lights which are chained together. The only outlet I haven't checked which I just now remember is the outlet for a garage door opener. I will pull it out here in a little bit when I get down to the garage.

Normally, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but a wire that doesn't make contact may always start to make contact later on. Something arcing or sparking in a wall I do not want. That's one reason I went back and looked at some old pictures I had just to make sure there isn't a hidden outlet somewhere. When I had the deck around our pond, I had a circuit go dead and when I checked the outlets, I found the dead one. When I went to replace it, the outlet was full of Earwigs and spiders and had shorted it out.

I've only had two well now three electrical problems in the 20 years we've lived here. One was the dead outlet on the deck, another was with the garage with a backstabbed outlet, and now this. There are no outlets in the attic anywhere, I've pulled switches to check for wire nuts, I've had the panel box cover off a few times checking everything on that circuit and have moved the neutral, ground and even the hot, just to see if it was stemming from there. I don't like backstabbed outlets. But when I had some help wiring things, the buddy that was helping me backstabbed his. I do remember thinking at the time that he was just quick in wiring. As far as I know, there are no more backstabbed outlets now.

I've double checked with the wife a couple times now to be sure the wall was built with the rest of the garage and she assured me it was. She is going to pull out a box of old photos to see if she can find a pic of when we was building it. I hate to cut out drywall, but I can either do it and patch it back in behind some tin, or I can cut it out in the closet and patch it back in. It just really bothers me to the point that I have lost what little sleep I get anyways trying to figure this out. I don't like a questionable circuit in a wall.

I'm going to give it one more shot today before I start cutting some drywall.

After yesterday, and tracing things out and remembering what I had when I removed the wall between the bays, this is what I have as far as I can tell.

 

[coolreed]

I would not read all that,..BUT,...you probably have a GFI tripped and you have not found it yet. Might be behind a chest. Might be in another room.

 

[Kevin54]

After three days of screwing around, I won!!!!!

But it's sort of a pisser to that I wasted all of that time. Actually I made two mistakes.

Instead of checking both plug ins on the outlets, I checked only one plug-in in only one outlet in the ceiling. All of the other outlets in the ceiling I went around and checked both plug-ins. I also checked both plug-ins in all of the wall outlets.

Mistake #2....I started at the wrong end of the circuitry. I crawled up in the attic and looked and instead of going from the breaker box down, I went from the breaker box up, ran the wires across the back of the garage and then went down to the outlet runs. So the sketch I have is a little wrong but easily correctable. The culprit was the outlet in the ceiling for the garage door opener. I pulled the cover off of it on day one and plugged in the tester in only one slot and it lit up. Today I come out and decide to test it again just to make sure, but I plug the tester into the other slot and I'll be damned if my traffic light didn't light up. Instead of the wall going to the outlet for the garage door opener, the garage door opener outlet went to the wall.

So all in all, I started at the wrong end of doing things. Now that I know, I'm going to update the sketch. I know how the other side of the garage is ran, so I'll make a sketch of it, put them in a plastic tube, and fasten them somewhere in the garage where I will always know they are at for when i get a little more feeble minded.

One scary thing, and I'll post a pic in a little bit.....the draw on the circuit, which there is not much at all plugged in, but I used the heat gun that day along with the traffic light being plugged in, fried a back-stabbed outlet. It got hot enough to actually melt the back of the outlet and bow it somewhat. At least, by working a little backwards, which seems like my luck goes anyways, I did manage to find a few more back-stabbed outlets and eliminate them. So I don't have to worry about that happening again.

 

[Zeke]

That's not a sketch, that's a maze.

Glad you found it. I did say something about a ceiling outlet.

 

[Kevin54]

C'mon Zeke....it's not that bad of a maze is it?

I have to get the wife out here today so I can have my garage back. She literally can shove ten pounds of **** in a five pound bag. She cleaned the closet out, which originally was built so I could store the parts for my '62 Impala. After I had my second, third, and fourth shoulder surgeries, I sold the '62. I bet it wasn't 24 hours until she decided to store some stuff in it. The closet is 4' deep and 14' wide with a door in the middle. It is clear full from top to bottom, side to side. I finally realize why people rent storage buildings. I know that if I rented a storage building just to put excess stuff, Christmas stuff, and a lot of her Longaberger stuff, it would have to be a one car garage minimum. My wife is a compulsive collector and saver. To this day, she still doesn't know what went into a burn pile that she saved as far as maybe three large tote tubs of **** from work. Sometimes it gets aggravating but I just keep it to myself. Her sister is basically a hoarder. According to our niece, my wife wasn't nearly as bad until she had a house fire and lost everything she owned. That was right before her and I got together. Then of course when she was growing up, her family was very poor but did the best they could to get by. Then when her dad passed away, her mom had to sell the farm and her step sisters got everything from that. So I can't say too much about things I guess. That's like the other day I asked her to buy me a magazine holder that holds maybe 12 magazines or so and is made out of the wire basket material. I told her I only needed one. She comes home with three of different styles. She said she wasn't sure what one I would like better. So she decided to keep the other two for herself. So most of the time, if I need something, I won't ask her to get it because that's what happens.

 

[rockwithjason]

glad to hear it kevin. those kind of problems can be maddening to solve.

 

[Kevin54]

This was the very last outlet and the one that give me all the trouble trying to find the problem.

 

[rockwithjason]

You should have went to the last one first.