Electrical Question for the Experts 09/27/23

[four.cycle]

I'm working in a commercial building about 35-40 years old. Ballet studio.
Two bathrooms. Two dressing rooms.
Girls do not turn off the lights in bathrooms or dressing rooms.

Rooms are illuminated with 40-inch LED "plug-and-play" tubes that I put in to replace the old fluorescent tubes.
Bathrooms also have a small ceiling fan.

Can I replace the standard single-pole, single-throw wall switch with a TIMER? Or would there be issues with running that current through a timer?
(I'm a painter, not an electrician, Jim.)

The LARGER question, of course, is: "Will this actually net a significant enough reduction in the monthly power bills to monkey around with this? Or will I be replacing broken timer switches from now until the end of time?"

I can change a light bulb. I can even replace a wall switch. But the stuff about how it works - I'm lost.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

depends on the type of timer, whether it needs a neutral and if theres a neutral in the switch box...

 

[bwringer]

Replace the switches with motion detectors. They'll stay on as long as there are people in the room moving around. Run both the fan and the lights with the motion detector.

These include a timer you can set for the period they'll remain on after they stop detecting motion, usually something like two to five minutes.

They're quite reliable, and they don't cost much. Whether they'll save much in electricity I dunno (LEDs are pretty dang efficient), but they do save massively in aggravation.

I've installed these in our bathrooms at home and at work for a slightly different reason, guests and co-workers who refused to leave the fan on after their bathroom performances, leading to an... unpleasant situation in adjoining rooms.

In this case, people complained that they couldn't turn the light off, so I wired a light switch after the motion detector to give them something pointless to do so they'd feel better. They can turn the light off if they want, but the fan remains on for five minutes after they leave. Thus is harmony preserved. With some motion detectors you can tap them to turn them off and on manually, but most people don't know that.

 

[four.cycle]

^ Ah so! Okay.. THAT sounds like a much better idea... I'll run that by my sister - she has the final say-so.

I have observed multiple instances of timer knobs being twisted off, or the timer mechanism itself damaged (by people trying to turn the timer knob backwards) by people unfamiliar with the building (one in a rental cabin where the owner replaced three timer switches over the course of two years, another in a "guest bathroom" at one of my mother's houses where visitors repeatedly twisted the knobs off.)

So... we're talking a deal like they have in the bathrooms in some hospitals - or "Big Lots!" stores where as soon as you enter the room the lights come on.

I'm liking this idea more and more as I type.

Thank you!

 

[bwringer]

Yep, the motion switches have a wee dial hidden under the faceplate where you can set the timing.

On some, the user can tap the motion detector to toggle it off or on. In this case, I'd look for ones that don't do this. No interaction, no moving parts, nothing to break unless they really work at it.

 

[dscheidt]

So... we're talking a deal like they have in the bathrooms in some hospitals - or "Big Lots!" stores where as soon as you enter the room the lights come on.

These are usually called "occupancy sensors" if you're looking in a catalog. The other kind is a 'vacancy' sensor. The big difference is that an occupancy sensor turns the lights on when it senses motion, and then off some time after it stops detecting the motion. A vacancy sensor you turn on with the switch, it turns it self off when it thinks the room is vacant. Some modern models can do either.

 

[four.cycle]

^ $25.99 each at ACE Hardware. Delay timer can be set anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes. Looks like a simple plug-and-play job.
I am going to see if they're available for a lower price, because I'd be installing four of them. I'll have to check with the boss after I find a better price.

 

[BrandonV]

^ Ah so! Okay.. THAT sounds like a much better idea... I'll run that by my sister - she has the final say-so.

I have observed multiple instances of timer knobs being twisted off, or the timer mechanism itself damaged (by people trying to turn the timer knob backwards) by people unfamiliar with the building (one in a rental cabin where the owner replaced three timer switches over the course of two years, another in a "guest bathroom" at one of my mother's houses where visitors repeatedly twisted the knobs off.)

So... we're talking a deal like they have in the bathrooms in some hospitals - or "Big Lots!" stores where as soon as you enter the room the lights come on.

I'm liking this idea more and more as I type.

Thank you!

Pretty much every business I've been in uses a WattStopper.

Wall Switch Occupancy and Vacancy Sensors | Legrand

Wattstopper wall switch occupancy and vacancy sensors enable energy-efficient control of light in a room based on occupancy. Explore wall switch sensors now.

www.legrand.us

 

[Rounder]

I suspect if you do the math, turning the bathroom light off, is just a feel good measure. You can buy a lot of KWH for $25.

 

[dscheidt]

I suspect if you do the math, turning the bathroom light off, is just a feel good measure. You can buy a lot of KWH for $25.

I pay about 15 cents a kW hour, so about 167 of them for $25. if the occupancy sensor saves a 75 watt draw for 12 hours a day, it's less than a 6 month pay back.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I pay about 15 cents a kW hour, so about 167 of them for $25. if the occupancy sensor saves a 75 watt draw for 12 hours a day, it's less than a 6 month pay back.

The lights are LED so highly doubtful the draw is 75 W. Your payback/ROI is probably going to be triple what you calculated

 

[bwringer]

Honestly, it's often more about the aggravation saved. You don't have to yell at the kids to turn the damn light out, and they're not going to keep breaking the mechanical timers. And using a motion sensor to activate bathroom fans has its own benefits for the delicate noses of others in the building.

 

[four.cycle]

^ Talked to her on the phone earlier and she okayed it. Just a matter of shopping around for a better price - save a few bucks. This is turning into kind of a spendy project.

You can't yell at the dancers. They're dancers. They're not required to do or know anything else. Their sole responsibility is to show up for class and dance. Stand up straight, hair in a bun, no loose ribbons on the pointe shoes.

Next Performance: Saturday October 7th 7:00 PM University Place Library Atrium
3609 Market Pl W, University Place, WA 98466
Suburban Times article

 

[four.cycle]

^ wow I just read that article... I didn't know she was going to have Richard at this performance. if you can make it, do so.
he is really good.

 

[2gslse]

I installed occupancy switches in my closets and pantry at home because wife and daughter would leave them on and I highly recommend them for your aggravation level of set and forget.

 

[75gmck25]

For my bathroom heaters I used timer switches that just have pushbuttons for 5-20-15-30 minutes (they also make versions that go up to 60 minutes). You push the button to turn it on and it automatically turns off when it hits the limit. The switch is physically simple because you just push the button. Nothing to turn, twist or break.

 

[sparky 1971]

The problem with timers in bathrooms is the last person to use it. That person sets the timer, the next person goes in and the lights are on, but unbeknownst to him or her, there is only two minutes left before the lights go out. That person, who hit an all you can eat sweet corn feed the night before, gets into the stall and all of a sudden, it's too dark to find the toilet paper. At least with the sensors there is an amount of time after motion stops before it gets dark which should be enough to take care of business.

 

[dscheidt]

The lights are LED so highly doubtful the draw is 75 W. Your payback/ROI is probably going to be triple what you calculated

He's replacing fluorescent tubes. I figured two tubes at about 20 W each, plus a 25 W fan, and called it 75 W because it's a round number.
Evn if the pay back is a year, it's still less than the expected lifespan of the switches.

 

[four.cycle]

"The problem with timers in bathrooms is the last person to use it...."

^ that's something we considered as well.

She wants to go with the sensor thingies... I just need to do some shopping around and try to save a few bucks on the purchase price.
It's a low priority at the moment - I have to finish the floor (the grout thing in the other thread), clean the carpet, get the shelves back up, fix the "exit" sign, and figure out why the overhead light in the main entry way won't work before I get to dealing with this anyway.

But... I have read the handwriting on the wall... and odds are I am going to be repainting two bathrooms and two dressing rooms here in the near future.

====

@sparky 1971 -

Did Vampire Tools ever get squared away with you on that oddball pair of shears? Or did you or they give up on that one?
I dropped off here for a few months right after that deal so I never found out what happened, and Mandy is no longer with Vampire.
Mine are still in the package - unopened.
They have a new guy (or girl?) handling promotions but thus far they haven't posted anything in the Vampire Tools "hot deals" thread.

BK

 

[sparky 1971]

@sparky 1971 -

Did Vampire Tools ever get squared away with you on that oddball pair of shears? Or did you or they give up on that one?
I dropped off here for a few months right after that deal so I never found out what happened, and Mandy is no longer with Vampire.
Mine are still in the package - unopened.
They have a new guy (or girl?) handling promotions but thus far they haven't posted anything in the Vampire Tools "hot deals" thread.

BK

They did. They sent me a replacement pair of the linemans as well as a pair of the other style with the comfort grip. I sent back the messed up pair as well as a duplicate of the three #12 copper wires I had twisted together and cut that screwed up the jaw along with my contact info. I also emailed Mandy that I had returned them and asked her to let me know if it was a defective pair or were they not designed for what I had done. I set both pair of pliers on a shelf while I waited to hear back. I never heard anything and frankly, forgot all about the whole thing until now. I think I'm going to try them again next week and see if the new pair does better.... If they don't, I'm not out anything.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I'm going to poke some sticks in their cage on this one.

 

[cybrdyke]

In a bathroom, if there are stalls, then the preferred occ sensor is Ultrasonic or DualTech. A standard el-cheapo PIR sensor cant "see" any movement inside the stall, so it's possible for the lights to go off while someone is in there. AND...they cant turn them on by waving, etc. Ultrasonic can detect motion around walls and inside stalls. DualTech combines Ultrasonic and PIR technologies and is also a good choice.
Good luck,
CD

 

[four.cycle]

^ no stalls. greatest distance between the wall switch and the toilet seat is maybe six or seven feet. I'm sure the little plug-and-play "Leviton" models I looked at the other day will work fine, I just need to find them for a few bucks less because this "fix up" project is costing way more in materials than we had planned on spending - we're not working with an unlimited budget here.

 

[Metal-Marc]

Girls do not turn off the lights in bathrooms or dressing rooms.

It's a commercial building, leave the lights on.

 

[VampireTools]

They did. They sent me a replacement pair of the linemans as well as a pair of the other style with the comfort grip. I sent back the messed up pair as well as a duplicate of the three #12 copper wires I had twisted together and cut that screwed up the jaw along with my contact info. I also emailed Mandy that I had returned them and asked her to let me know if it was a defective pair or were they not designed for what I had done. I set both pair of pliers on a shelf while I waited to hear back. I never heard anything and frankly, forgot all about the whole thing until now. I think I'm going to try them again next week and see if the new pair does better.... If they don't, I'm not out anything.

Hi Sparky and BK, our sincere apologies we dropped the ball on following up with you! My name is Foz (new gal, and as mentioned to BK, I will follow up with two of my team members (they are on leave and back next week) to let you know about the pair you returned. In the meantime, we hope we can share some supportive deals and also respond to any feedback/questions (in a timelier manner!) wishing you a wonderful day and appreciate your patience. look forward to staying connected on here - Foz (Vampire Tools)

 

[Rounder]

I pay about 15 cents a kW hour, so about 167 of them for $25. if the occupancy sensor saves a 75 watt draw for 12 hours a day, it's less than a 6 month pay back.

49 dollars a year to run it 12 hours a day. Not saying not a cost savings, but not sure worth running out and doing it

This is considering 12 hours of wasted light a day.

Myself I got lights on timers to come one.

 

[Rounder]

Have you considered getting led? That is what I do with lights on timers that run for hours a day.

Easy, and you have light.