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Electrical Question

BrianDye

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Oct 14, 2013
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3
A little background first-

Just bought our first home (Im 21, girlfriend is 20), house was built in 1928, the garage is old but definitely not 1928.

Has a single electrical line going underground from the house to the garage, which comes into a switch, and 4 outlets. Then splices off into 2 other switches, (1st switch controls 2 lights on the ceiling, 2nd switch is the light in the "attic" and 3rd controls a large dusk to dawn light on the front, outside.)

The inside is unfinished, and I would like to finish it with drywall.

I will be using regular 4' fluorescent fixtures (x4) as lighting which will be easy to wire in place of the current 1 bulb fixtures.


I have a fridge, and would like to install a nice stereo system which will be my 2 big draws, and will soon be getting an air compressor, and TV out there.

My question is- I want more outlets at least 2 on each wall but I feel that I would need to run another power wire out there to disperse all the power? It would be going from the 4 outlets right inside the door to 2 sets of 1 outlet plugs on the sides and back wall.

What are your suggestions? I would like to keep this all a DIY project, I can easily add the sockets and lighting, but im a bit intimidated when it comes to running more power out there
 
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acmikee

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olympia, wa
what size is the wire and what size is the breaker going into the garage.
do you have enough service to run a sub panel in the garage.
 

pepi

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Woodstock, GA
First look at the breaker panel note the amp rating of the breaker that is feeding the garage.

If the breaker in the panel is 15 amp that is standard for lights, if 20 amp that is a standard for outlets.

Suppose it is 15 amp, that will be fine for lights only. To run outlets you will need to install a 20 amp breaker, if the breaker panel has the room, and pull another wire to the garage. Compressor well that might require 220 and that will need another breaker and wire pull. So you will have or need 3 circuits 15, 20, 35 amp. I use 35 amp for the 220 cause my Tig welder is 35 amp and compressor is 30.

Doing this kind of work requires a good working knowledge of the precautions that must be adhered to when working with and around electrical devices. The inside of the breaker panel could be 100 - 200 amps and that ain't nothing to sneeze at.

With your question and description I think you might not be aware of what you are up against. Could be a better plan to sit down figure out exactly what your electrical goals are .

Example:
1 more lighting
2 outlets and planed wish list of loads ...... things plugged in
3 compressor 220 or 110

Then have an electrician give you a price to have the breakers installed and the wires run to the garage. Another cost savings you do the trench.

Then you do the garage the wiring. That would be a safer way for a novice, cause you can kill the circuit with the breaker, do the wiring flip the breaker on. If you mess up, it will just pop the breaker and then go back and figure out what went wrong.

No real need for a sub panel unless your house panel is full, no room for more breakers. 3 circuits pulled into 3 junction boxes and the internal garage wires from that point will work just fine
 
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pattenp

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Virginia - USA
I believe the garage is detached based on the feed being under ground. So adding another circuit/feed to the garage is not an option.

First look at the breaker panel note the amp rating of the breaker that is feeding the garage.

If the breaker in the panel is 15 amp that is standard for lights, if 20 amp that is a standard for outlets.

Suppose it is 15 amp, that will be fine for lights only. To run outlets you will need to install a 20 amp breaker, if the breaker panel has the room, and pull another wire to the garage. Compressor well that might require 220 and that will need another breaker and wire pull. So you will have or need 3 circuits 15, 20, 35 amp. I use 35 amp for the 220 cause my Tig welder is 35 amp and compressor is 30.

Doing this kind of work requires a good working knowledge of the precautions that must be adhered to when working with and around electrical devices. The inside of the breaker panel could be 100 - 200 amps and that ain't nothing to sneeze at.

With your question and description I think you might not be aware of what you are up against. Could be a better plan to sit down figure out exactly what your electrical goals are .

Example:
1 more lighting
2 outlets and planed wish list of loads ...... things plugged in
3 compressor 220 or 110

Then have an electrician give you a price to have the breakers installed and the wires run to the garage. Another cost savings you do the trench.

Then you do the garage the wiring. That would be a safer way for a novice, cause you can kill the circuit with the breaker, do the wiring flip the breaker on. If you mess up, it will just pop the breaker and then go back and figure out what went wrong.

No real need for a sub panel unless your house panel is full, no room for more breakers. 3 circuits pulled into 3 junction boxes and the internal garage wires from that point will work just fine
 
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BrianDye

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Oct 14, 2013
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Im not sure, I haven't looked that far into it yet- Im at work and were moving slow, so im just brainstorming here pretty much.

This might be a "noob" question, but what do you mean by having enough service out there? Its just a regular 120v line, from what I remember, the wire coming in looks just like the typical wire you see going into sockets in the house.

There is some not-so-hot work done in this house, the garage wiring being one. The wire comes up from the ground, then up the foundation slab, and under the garage wall up to the socket and switches.

Ill try to get some pictures tomorrow. Im not sure if there is a breaker (Id imagine yes, but haven't checked) that controls the garage or not. I can answer these questions alot better tomorrow morning.
 
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BrianDye

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I think running more or rerunning the power going out there will definitely be left to an electrician, I know I could easily add the plugs and lights myself, like pepi said, I can kill the circuit so theres no power running out there while I work.

Pattenp- Whats my next option if I need more power out there? It is detached.
 
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inphx

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Feb 23, 2012
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Phoenix/Scottsdale AZ
Brian, what is your location? Sometimes a local person can offer a look see and advice. If the wires coming from your electrical panel to the garage are too small for the amps needed to operate anything decent then the only option is to run larger gauge power.

That decision will have you understanding what your main power panel can support and what path (through wall and under ground or ovehead wire) can be best to route new wire to the garage.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Modesto, CA
I think running more or rerunning the power going out there will definitely be left to an electrician, I know I could easily add the plugs and lights myself, like pepi said, I can kill the circuit so theres no power running out there while I work.

Pattenp- Whats my next option if I need more power out there? It is detached.

It all depends on the distance and what loads you will have. You mentioned a compressor, but what about a plasma cutter, AC, electric heat, etc.?

If the distance is not too far, #2 AL MHF is a popular choice. It has an ampacity of 90a which is way more than you will need if this is a one man shop with just a few high draw devices. It can be direct buried but has to be ran in conduit inside buildings. Since its detached, you will also need 2 ground rods.
 

theoldwizard1

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Location
SE MI
I think running more or rerunning the power going out there will definitely be left to an electrician, ...

This job is not as bad as you think. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, hire it out, but you can save a lot of money by digging the trench. mounting the box in the garage and then letting the pro do the final connection on both ends.

If the distance is not too far, #2 AL MHF is a popular choice. It has an ampacity of 90a which is way more than you will need if this is a one man shop with just a few high draw devices. It can be direct buried but has to be ran in conduit inside buildings. Since its detached, you will also need 2 ground rods.

All very accurate. If you only need 40-50A (marginal, if you are going to be using a welder), you can save a few bucks on wire.


There are several knowledgeable people here. Help them help you by providing pictures and accurate distances.
 

eljefino

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Feb 21, 2008
Messages
336
How far is the garage from the house and what's the land like in between? If it's 15 feet and sandy shovelling a new trench might not be so bad.

Your average "2 hp" air compressor will run fine on 120V/ 15 amps for a few minutes even with a few lights on, though if you were painting a car or sandblasting continuously I'd start worrying about the wiring warming up. Are you thinking of getting a "big mother" air compressor substantially bigger than what most homeowner handymen get?

Big Q, what's the house's electrical service like? What brand panel, breakers, fuses?
 
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pattenp

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I'll take a guess that the existing circuit to the garage is just a 120V 15A or 20A feed. To get more power to the garage will require you to abandon that circuit as a power feed to the garage and install a new larger feed and a sub-panel in the garage. The existing wire can be reused (if correct type wire such as UF and not NM) as a switch loop for operating an outside light at the garage from the house, but the light must get its power from the garage. So once you can provide more info the better we can help. Some pics of the house panel and the wire that goes to the garage will help. And as said before the distance to the garage from the house panel.


I think running more or rerunning the power going out there will definitely be left to an electrician, I know I could easily add the plugs and lights myself, like pepi said, I can kill the circuit so theres no power running out there while I work.

Pattenp- Whats my next option if I need more power out there? It is detached.
 

2ManyProjects

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Messages
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A little background first-

Just bought our first home (Im 21, girlfriend is 20),

Congratulations. You're getting a much earlier start on home ownership than most folks do. That is a good thing; and if you treat the place right, this investment will pay off in spades later in life.

house was built in 1928, the garage is old but definitely not 1928.

Has a single electrical line going underground from the house to the garage, which comes into a switch, and 4 outlets. Then splices off into 2 other switches, (1st switch controls 2 lights on the ceiling, 2nd switch is the light in the "attic" and 3rd controls a large dusk to dawn light on the front, outside.)

You didn't mention how old the electrical installation is, as compared to the garage itself or the house; but based in part on your later comments, I'll wager that it was a DIY job by a previous owner, which probably didn't meet code even back when it was done. If you make significant changes to the electric service to that garage, you will near-certainly need to bring it ALL up to current code.

The inside is unfinished, and I would like to finish it with drywall.

And you should insulate "to the max" BEFORE putting that drywall in, even if you don't think you "need" it now (due to not currently having heat or A/C in the garage). But we're getting ahead of ourselves, because the electrical system needs to be sorted out before EITHER of these jobs.

I will be using regular 4' fluorescent fixtures (x4) as lighting which will be easy to wire in place of the current 1 bulb fixtures.

I'll reserve final judgement until I know more details about the garage -- such as its dimensions: Is this a single-car garage? Two-car garage? More? What about ceiling height? That dimension in particular will have a large impact on the lighting scheme you'll want to use, and its effectiveness. You mentioned "attic"; is there a loft? What is the current access to it? And what will it be after you slap up drywall everywhere?

But more immediately: Don't count on reusing ANY of the existing wiring. With open-frame walls & ceiling, it's child's play to run new stuff; and the cost is not onerous. So unless the existing wiring is both a lot newer than I suspect it is, AND installed perfectly, AND by some miracle in exactly the right places vis-a-vis what you REALLY want to do in that space... Then odds are it will be simpler and easier to just start over from scratch. IOW, don't let the tail wag the dog!

I have a fridge, and would like to install a nice stereo system which will be my 2 big draws, and will soon be getting an air compressor, and TV out there.

Unless you are going to insane levels of overkill on both devices, neither the fridge nor the stereo system will be anywhere near the biggest draws you're likely to have out there. For example, even a relatively modest medium-size compressor can require a dedicated 30A/240V circuit, all by itself.

Before you can accurately assess just "how much" electrical service you'll need in that garage, you need to figure out what tools & machines you will (or might someday) have out there. In order to do that, you need to define what sort of work you'll be doing in that garage, and by how many people at a time. Answer THOSE questions in an accurate and detailed manner, and the rest will almost automagically fall into place.

My question is- I want more outlets at least 2 on each wall but I feel that I would need to run another power wire out there to disperse all the power?

As mentioned by "pattenp", if this is a detached carage, you CANNOT have more than one power line running to it from the house, period.

It would be going from the 4 outlets right inside the door to 2 sets of 1 outlet plugs on the sides and back wall.

You could do it that way, BUT... The typical recommendation for general-purpose 120V outlets in garages (at least for garages used for more than simple parking spaces) is to have one double-gang box every 6-10 feet, all around the perimeter of the space (except where the vehicle door prevents that, of course). Each of those boxes would be fed from TWO separate 20A branch circuits, each of which would connect to ONE of the two duplex outlet devices (i.e., four sockets total) in that box. In a small garage, especially one where only one person will be working, the same two 20A circuits can feed all the outlets, daisy-chain style. But in any case, the FIRST outlet in each circuit must be a GFCI type (if installed correctly, this will provide GFCI protection for ALL the outlets). Notably, this scheme puts two 20A circuits within 6-10 feet of wherever you might be working at that moment, so that you can run multiple tools without risking overload of a single circuit. The garage door opener(s) go(es) on yet another 20A circuit, regardless of whether it/they are hard-wired or plugged into an (usually ceiling-mounted) duplex outlet.

What are your suggestions? I would like to keep this all a DIY project, I can easily add the sockets and lighting, but im a bit intimidated when it comes to running more power out there

As mentioned previously (and by others), it is near-certain that you WILL need to run a new feeder from the house's main breaker panel, out to a (new) sub-panel in the garage; then install your branch circuits as required, fed from the sub-panel.

This also raises the question of the house's existing main breaker panel... Describe it as fully as you can, both in terms of what it is (make/model, total load capacity as defined by the main breaker, number of branch-circuit slots both currently in use and available for expansion), and where it is located relative to both the house and the garage. How long will the cable run from this panel to the new sub-panel be (AFTER you account for all the ups & downs and zigs & zags!)?

This might be a "noob" question, but what do you mean by having enough service out there? Its just a regular 120v line, from what I remember, the wire coming in looks just like the typical wire you see going into sockets in the house.

There is some not-so-hot work done in this house, the garage wiring being one. The wire comes up from the ground, then up the foundation slab, and under the garage wall up to the socket and switches.

That's yet another reason I'm betting you'll need to rip that out and start over.

Quite beyond the VERY questionable-sounding installation, if it really is just standard NM-B (a.k.a. "Romex") cable, which some hack threw together as an el-cheapo "quick & dirty" way to get some electric in the garage, that is not at all appropriate (or safe!) for direct burial, regardless of the load. And even if it really is proper UF-B Direct Burial cable (cf. http://www.southwire.com/products/type-uf-b-direct-burial-water-well.htm), if it is not MUCH larger than what you'd find used for typical interior light-circuit wiring, then it is surely inadequate from a load current standpoint anyway.

But to attempt an answer to your question about "having enough service"... I'm betting that "similar to interior wiring" cable is at most AWG 12, which is good for at most 20 amps. But as alluded to above, your needs will surely be far beyond that. Even a relatively modest "home workshop" garage usually calls for at least 60A service; and 90-100A (hence the mention of 2-2-2-4 MHF) is a very prudent upgrade from that, which will provide a modest amount of "future-proofing" for very little more money.

Ill try to get some pictures tomorrow. Im not sure if there is a breaker (Id imagine yes, but haven't checked) that controls the garage or not.

There damned well better be! The more ominous question is, is that breaker dedicated to SOLELY to the feed to the garage? If there are ANY other loads (such as stuff within the house) on it, then that is yet another reason to abandon that existing feed to the garage, and start over.

I think running more or rerunning the power going out there will definitely be left to an electrician, I know I could easily add the plugs and lights myself, like pepi said, I can kill the circuit so theres no power running out there while I work.

I'll echo "theoldwizard1"'s comments on this. You may be able to save a significant portion of the cost by doing some of the "grunt work" yourself. If you are reasonably "handy", it's not all that difficult (tho' the digging can be, if you don't have the right tools). Install the sub-panel; rough in all the branch circuits; dig the trench (you'll probably want to rent a trencher for half a day for this), and maybe even run the feed cable from the general area of the sub-panel back to the general area of the main panel (leaving plenty of extra wire at each end). Then have the pro look over what you've done, fix any mistakes, and do the final connections. Some pros will not want to do this sort of job; but many will (especially in this economy -- at least assuming you're not in some area like the Jersey Shore, where ALL the trades are booked solid for months to come with reconstruction work).

 
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