Electrical Run to Spa

[skon1212]

I searched the forums and did not see an answer to my question.

Can schedule 40 PVC electric conduit be used above ground to run 4 6THNN wires to a Spa on my back patio?

I saw several different answers on different websites but they all contradicted each other. I also tried to look up the NEC code and couldn't find anything, or at least not a clear answer. The PVC would be attached to the foundation of my hours under the overhang of the Stucco. It would be about an 80 foot run from the main breaker panel to the disconnect box. Also I have to route around a bay window which I planned on using the non metallic flex conduit.
The other alternative is to run along the foundation and then up to our patio cover then through the patio cover rafters which could be a straight run with a couple 90's in the mix.
I have done some circuits in my garage for a compressor and welder so I understand the wiring part, just need a suggestion on what would be best for the run itself.
Thanks in advance.

 

[ratdoggy]

I had the place I bought mine from have their electrician wire mine as a condition of sale.
Although I'm capable of doing it correctly I found contradicting advice no matter where I looked

 

[skon1212]

I am looking at buying from Costco, so that isn't an option. When I got a quote to run a simple circuit for my air compressor, basically punching through the wall into my garage, 3 feet of wire, The best quote was $225. I did it in 45 min and spent $30 on parts. I can only imagine what they would want for a spa run as the parts alone will be close to $400.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I searched the forums and did not see an answer to my question.

Can schedule 40 PVC electric conduit be used above ground to run 4 6THNN wires to a Spa on my back patio?

I saw several different answers on different websites but they all contradicted each other. I also tried to look up the NEC code and couldn't find anything, or at least not a clear answer. The PVC would be attached to the foundation of my hours under the overhang of the Stucco. It would be about an 80 foot run from the main breaker panel to the disconnect box. Also I have to route around a bay window which I planned on using the non metallic flex conduit.
The other alternative is to run along the foundation and then up to our patio cover then through the patio cover rafters which could be a straight run with a couple 90's in the mix.
I have done some circuits in my garage for a compressor and welder so I understand the wiring part, just need a suggestion on what would be best for the run itself.
Thanks in advance.

nothing prohibiting PVC in that install.

Now you dont need 4x #6s. #8 THWN is good for 50a. And the ground wire does not need to be the same size as the grounded or ungrounded conductors.

So you could run 8-8-8-10 as long as tub calls for 50a circuit and breaker.

BTW code is permissive. If it doesnt say you cant, then youre good to go.

Make sure to use schedule 80 anywhere where it is subject to damage.

Dont forget GFCI breaker.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Pool and spa wiring is very specific. A power disconnecting means is required and must be visible and accessible. GFCI protection is required. A standard 120VAC duplex outlet is required in the area as well. Look for Mike Holt's article on article 680.

 

[skon1212]

nothing prohibiting PVC in that install.

Now you dont need 4x #6s. #8 THWN is good for 50a. And the ground wire does not need to be the same size as the grounded or ungrounded conductors.

So you could run 8-8-8-10 as long as tub calls for 50a circuit and breaker.

BTW code is permissive. If it doesnt say you cant, then youre good to go.

Make sure to use schedule 80 anywhere where it is subject to damage.

Dont forget GFCI breaker.

GFCI breaker should be in the disconnect box correct? I have heard some people use that in their service panel but it didn't seem correct.
This is what I plan on doing as far as wiring goes.
Thanks for the advice about the wire. 8's will save some $ as I believe it is a 50amp requirement.

 

[dcg9381]

GFCI is required. Cut-off location is location specific per NEC.
That is, as I read it, you can do a separate GFCI and disconnect to meet both requirements.

Eaton (At Lowes) provides the least expensive combo (disconnect and GFCI) that I could find. Costs about $66 here (model BR50SPAST).

 

[skon1212]

Possible change of plan. Thinking of running the wire through up an exterior wall next to the spa through PVC, into my attic over to my garage, drop down through EMT through the wall to my panel. I would still run 4 strands of 8 AWG THHN but what would I have to do when I go through my attic? Do I have to run through conduit or do I just tack the wires to the rafters (Not stapling through the wire of course) Just curious what I have to do to be in code.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Possible change of plan. Thinking of running the wire through up an exterior wall next to the spa through PVC, into my attic over to my garage, drop down through EMT through the wall to my panel. I would still run 4 strands of 8 AWG THHN but what would I have to do when I go through my attic? Do I have to run through conduit or do I just tack the wires to the rafters (Not stapling through the wire of course) Just curious what I have to do to be in code.

Non bundled wires such as THWN need to be in conduit everywhere so yes.

The ground wire doesnt need to be #8. You can run #10.

 

[skon1212]

Non bundled wires such as THWN need to be in conduit everywhere so yes.

The ground wire doesnt need to be #8. You can run #10.

Gotcha on the ground wire. Could I run Romex through the attic then when I go to the exterior splice to THHN or is that just not a good idea? Our attic has a weird elevation change where running conduit would be a pain. Just not sure its a good idea to splice from romex to THHN. Thoughts?

 

[mike93lx]

I am looking at buying from Costco, so that isn't an option. When I got a quote to run a simple circuit for my air compressor, basically punching through the wall into my garage, 3 feet of wire, The best quote was $225. I did it in 45 min and spent $30 on parts. I can only imagine what they would want for a spa run as the parts alone will be close to $400.

Curious what you think that work should have cost considering he has to pay for insurance, certifications, a vehicle, transit time, supplies and profit. $225 to have a pro in any field come out and do 30-60 minutes is appropriate in my book.

More to the point here, make sure your wire is dual rated (THHN and THWN)

 

[nh_yota]

Use a spa panel, run romex through the attic and splice to THWN in a 4 11/16" box inside before you transition to the PVC run outside. Done all the time.

 

[skon1212]

Curious what you think that work should have cost considering he has to pay for insurance, certifications, a vehicle, transit time, supplies and profit. $225 to have a pro in any field come out and do 30-60 minutes is appropriate in my book.

More to the point here, make sure your wire is dual rated (THHN and THWN)

Honestly not sure, but Most services, Plumbers, carpenters, HVAC charge $60-$100 and hour and then cost of supplies. I honestly think if he would have charged $150 that would have been fair but When I had my pool built, my entire electrical run cost $650 and was done by a licensed electrician and was 10 times the work. I know the trades need to make money but sometimes they think people are stupid. The only reason I considered asking for a quote was I didnt have time to do it.

 

[skon1212]

Use a spa panel, run romex through the attic and splice to THWN in a 4 11/16" box inside before you transition to the PVC run outside. Done all the time.

Sounds good. For the run from my main panel to the attic I am going through the inside of my garage on a wall behind my panel. should I use romex from the panel up to the attic or use THWN for that 8 foot run up the wall then splice to romex there as well? Hate splicing wires when I dont have to but want it to be a safe job.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Gotcha on the ground wire. Could I run Romex through the attic then when I go to the exterior splice to THHN or is that just not a good idea? Our attic has a weird elevation change where running conduit would be a pain. Just not sure its a good idea to splice from romex to THHN. Thoughts?

yes no issue with splicing.

you could run NM-b for the indoor portion and splice to THWN in a junction box on the inside.

Be aware, for nm-b you will need #6/** as #8/** is limited to 40a.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am looking at buying from Costco, so that isn't an option. When I got a quote to run a simple circuit for my air compressor, basically punching through the wall into my garage, 3 feet of wire, The best quote was $225. I did it in 45 min and spent $30 on parts. I can only imagine what they would want for a spa run as the parts alone will be close to $400.

Honestly not sure, but Most services, Plumbers, carpenters, HVAC charge $60-$100 and hour and then cost of supplies. I honestly think if he would have charged $150 that would have been fair but When I had my pool built, my entire electrical run cost $650 and was done by a licensed electrician and was 10 times the work. I know the trades need to make money but sometimes they think people are stupid. The only reason I considered asking for a quote was I didnt have time to do it.

What do you mean by "they think people are stupid"?

Seems to me you dont realize what the cost of running a contracting business is.

Curious what you think that work should have cost considering he has to pay for insurance, certifications, a vehicle, transit time, supplies and profit. $225 to have a pro in any field come out and do 30-60 minutes is appropriate in my book.

More to the point here, make sure your wire is dual rated (THHN and THWN)

Exactly. People dont understand what it costs to run a business. They have no clue what the licenses(city and state), permits, insurance(truck, property, liability, in-land marine, work comp, health, unemployment, etc), shop rent or mortgage, phone and internet service, website, secretary, HR, tools and equipment, hourly employees, etc etc etc etc COSTS. Oh and then profit to keep cash flow going and stay in business

$225 sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[skon1212]

What do you mean by "they think people are stupid"?

Seems to me you dont realize what the cost of running a contracting business is.



Exactly. People dont understand what it costs to run a business. They have no clue what the licenses(city and state), permits, insurance(truck, property, liability, in-land marine, work comp, health, unemployment, etc), shop rent or mortgage, phone and internet service, website, secretary, HR, tools and equipment, hourly employees, etc etc etc etc COSTS. Oh and then profit to keep cash flow going and stay in business

$225 sounds like a good deal to me.

Sorry if I offended and you are right, I don't understand all the ins and outs of a contracting business but I do know a lot of contractors both good and bad. I talked to a couple of them and they said $200 was a little high for the job so I guess that is where I got my opinion from. I was also trying to get it done as a side job since it was so small.
As far as the stupid comment, i did not mean all of them. When I had a patio cover built I had 4 estimates. The best one was $6500 and they did a great job and they were licenced and bonded and highly recommended, but I had one company quote me $25000 and another $22000. I guess that kind of soured me.

I really appreciate the help with my questions and please don't cut me off, I need all the help I can get.

 

[nh_yota]

Sounds good. For the run from my main panel to the attic I am going through the inside of my garage on a wall behind my panel. should I use romex from the panel up to the attic or use THWN for that 8 foot run up the wall then splice to romex there as well? Hate splicing wires when I dont have to but want it to be a safe job.

Are you running it on the surface of the wall or along a stud? If it needs protection you can sleeve the romex in conduit. Pros would likely run THWN in conduit the entire way instead of transitioning back and forth.

 

[skon1212]

Are you running it on the surface of the wall or along a stud? If it needs protection you can sleeve the romex in conduit. Pros would likely run THWN in conduit the entire way instead of transitioning back and forth.

I would run it along a stud in conduit since it would be on the inside wall of my garage.

 

[maplepuck]

Honestly not sure, but Most services, Plumbers, carpenters, HVAC charge $60-$100 and hour and then cost of supplies. I honestly think if he would have charged $150 that would have been fair but When I had my pool built, my entire electrical run cost $650 and was done by a licensed electrician and was 10 times the work. I know the trades need to make money but sometimes they think people are stupid. The only reason I considered asking for a quote was I didnt have time to do it.

Its possible the bid was placed to make you go away politely...without having to say it aloud...whose to say, sometimes the small jobs are too "small" for some. Always get at least 3 bids; will give those that are uninitiated a better idea of whats around.

 

[mm08822]

I am looking at buying from Costco, so that isn't an option. When I got a quote to run a simple circuit for my air compressor, basically punching through the wall into my garage, 3 feet of wire, The best quote was $225. I did it in 45 min and spent $30 on parts. I can only imagine what they would want for a spa run as the parts alone will be close to $400.

Others have already helped you understand some of the unseen costs. But you need to understand that you didnt complete that job in 45 mins. You already knew what/how the job required. That took time even if you didn't realize it. You went and bought mtls. That took time, gas,etc. Even billing takes time.

 

[sberry]

If I could would pipe it all the way.

 

[Norcal]

I don’t have a code book in front of me but I do believe that the equipment grounding conductor has to be insulated for a spa. This rules out NM cable if correct.

 

[sberry]

Yes, there are a couple fussy things about ground. Nmb might not qualify but the big idea is they don't want to share it or have it tied on with others, no way for it to become energized from something else.

 

[Jim greengo]

Honestly not sure, but Most services, Plumbers, carpenters, HVAC charge $60-$100 and hour and then cost of supplies. I honestly think if he would have charged $150 that would have been fair but When I had my pool built, my entire electrical run cost $650 and was done by a licensed electrician and was 10 times the work. I know the trades need to make money but sometimes they think people are stupid. The only reason I considered asking for a quote was I didnt have time to do it.

I guess it depends on your location around here you're not going to get much for $60.00 hr other than maybe a craigslist hack with a pick up truck and a step ladder
I'm retired from doing big jobs and running a shop and crews,but still keep my licenses and insurance up,I bill out $100hr for service calls,but I dont have the overhead like I used to have.
Typical shops around here have work piled up like firewood for $150.00hr per head.

 

[skon1212]

I guess it depends on your location around here you're not going to get much for $60.00 hr other than maybe a craigslist hack with a pick up truck and a step ladder
I'm retired from doing big jobs and running a shop and crews,but still keep my licenses and insurance up,I bill out $100hr for service calls,but I dont have the overhead like I used to have.
Typical shops around here have work piled up like firewood for $150.00hr per head.

So honestly, what would be a fair price to run a circcuit for a spa about 85 feet through conduit on an exterior footing or up through an attic? Both runs are about the same distance wise. Like I said, I really dont mind paying, but when people charge by the hour I get leary as some like to drag their feet. Been burned a few times by the trades that give you a cost per hour then are done in half the time but still charge for the entire time they quoted.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you are whinning about being quoted a price for a job and the labor ends up being less but they charge you the quote price, then you dont understand bidding.

 

[dcg9381]

So honestly, what would be a fair price to run a circcuit for a spa about 85 feet through conduit on an exterior footing or up through an attic? Both runs are about the same distance wise. Like I said, I really dont mind paying, but when people charge by the hour I get leary as some like to drag their feet. Been burned a few times by the trades that give you a cost per hour then are done in half the time but still charge for the entire time they quoted.

You can either pay by the hour and accept the risk of the lolly-gagger or do fixed bid... The best of both would be hourly, but not to exceed $X.

It's normal for trades to charge you bid price even if the labor is much less. In fact, this is a standard practice every time you take your car into the dealer. You pay a "book rate" for a job - out of one of a few different books. Most decent mechanics don't take "book time" on a job.

A 6ga wire run through 85 feet could take me anywhere from 2 hours to 8+ hours depending on what we are doing, conduit size, how many bends, how high up the conduit is, etc. If you want to minimize the cost of this job, run that wire through conduit yourself, leaving lots of room on the ends.

6ga romex through attic, wouldn't have to be in conduit, necessarily, but attic configurations vary quite a bit...

it's impossible to internet-bid this job..

 

[skon1212]

First off, thanks for all the input, I appreciate it. If I offended anyone, again I apologize there are just alot of guys in AZ that try to rip you off unfortunately.

With that said I have decided to do this myself as I can run wires, and will have a friend help me with the project. BUT the spa I am getting requires a 60 amp service so that means 6AWG wire. What I am finding though is some places sell the THHN wire with 6AWG Red, White and Black but the ground is 10 gauge. Is 10 gauge enough for that long of a run and service?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

First off, thanks for all the input, I appreciate it. If I offended anyone, again I apologize there are just alot of guys in AZ that try to rip you off unfortunately.

With that said I have decided to do this myself as I can run wires, and will have a friend help me with the project. BUT the spa I am getting requires a 60 amp service so that means 6AWG wire. What I am finding though is some places sell the THHN wire with 6AWG Red, White and Black but the ground is 10 gauge. Is 10 gauge enough for that long of a run and service?

what do you mean by 'rip you off'?

The neutral needs to be white insulated and the ground needs to be green.

#10 EGC is good for upto 60a breaker.

what is the nameplate rating on the spa?

I doubt 85' of wire will be an issue

 

[alfredeneuman]

I don’t have a code book in front of me but I do believe that the equipment grounding conductor has to be insulated for a spa. This rules out NM cable if correct.

AFAIK, In the dwelling NM is OK.
When it leave the dwelling the it needs to have an insulated grounding conductor (you can't use UF cable outside or for underground).

 

[alfredeneuman]

I found it>>
680.42
C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations.
In the interior of a dwelling unit or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized or permitted in Chapter 3 of this Code shall be permitted to be used.