Electrical service for a metalworking shop

[nsula_country]

If POCO plays nice (price and availability) 3 phase is the way to go. Either 240v Delta or 480v, not 208v. 200A should be all that is needed.

I'd love to have 3P at the shop. But its like NG service, not fesable to have it installed...

Being a "trained professional" 240v vs 480v safety debate is humorous. They will both kill you dead and both will arc flash. Industry standard is 480v, doubtful the POCO will offer this option to you.

I grew up on 240v Delta at home. In the late 50's or early 60's the rural electrification programs were going on. The POCO needed to put a 3P transmision line through the farm. Grandfather agreed to give right of way, only if they set him up with 3P.

We have 200A 240V Delta at the barn and in grandmothers house. 6.5T AC condenser and 25kw electric heat are both 3P. At barn there is a 30HP hammer mill.

Dad put in a 400A 240V Delta at his shop when it was built in 1980. Shop also feeds 200A 1P panel to their house. He has a 25HP compressor. Overkill yes. For most work he has a 2HP, but when he wants air, he has it.

CT

 

[alfredeneuman]

In my service area (SoCal Edison) 120/240 4 wire service is supplied on a case by case basis, and only under "special circumstances".
They will supply 240 delta 3 wire, but to get 120 from it would require a transformer or a separate 120/240 1Ø service.

 

[DSMR]

Does this DIYer's screw driver carry an SCCR? Cause that is what I would be worried about, or something similar. Guy does his own electrical, shuts of wrong breaker, forgets to check and has something blow up in his face when he puts the screw driver in there.

People modify equipment or use cheap parts. Read a few threads and I'm sure you'll find one asking about some cheap part from china.

People do dumb things when they don't know any better. A few months ago I went to work on a grain dryer. Had a reversing starter. The open contactor had welded closed and in an effort to close the electric gate the operator jammed a screw driver in the close contactor. The mechanical interlock must not have been very good because it went in and the whole mess blew up.

Much more forgiving on 120/240, probably walk away just needing a new screw driver instead of dealing with burns everywhere.



As the voltage level goes up so does the needed safety equipment.

Also not sure why your even arguing the point. you keep missing some fairly important info.


I'm done arguing anybody reading should understand the risks and can decide whether they have the skills and knowledge to work safely around 480V

If you are willing to work on live circuits you are taking your own life in your hands no matter what the voltage is. You need to study proper PPE practices because from the sounds of it, you are not being safe working on equipment and might be complacent thinking only a certain magical threshold of potential difference is what can hurt you. This type of thinking is dangerous.

 

[jeepxj]

looks like 15.6c avg in MI per KWH. So roughly 15 bucks an hour at full tilt.

 

[sberry]

Yes, I was having a brain seizure yesterday, figured it would be about 15 an hour or so at full load, not that it will ever see that.
I live in rural area. Not getting 3 was a problem over the uears but I sm pretty well past the need now. I would have bought big tools back in the day, mainly shear and brake.
4FN has the money to pay 30 large to bring it in for new 50 hp equipment. The Op is talking about scoring a used motor from work for a converter. Yes the 3 service is ideal,, at what cost? Same for the farmer giving up the easement,,, no/low cost,,, way different picture.

 

[alfredeneuman]

If you are willing to work on live circuits you are taking your own life in your hands no matter what the voltage is. You need to study proper PPE practices because from the sounds of it, you are not being safe working on equipment and might be complacent thinking only a certain magical threshold of potential difference is what can hurt you. This type of thinking is dangerous.

You're quick to criticize others, yet you post this in another thread: https://photos.app.goo.gl/3QUutYet9kUhv38d7 as an example of your own personal work?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow that looks like ****?

And is that outside?

 

[nsula_country]

It is a poor cutout... Sheetrock, inside... I think?

CT

 

[jeepxj]

Yes, I was having a brain seizure yesterday, figured it would be about 15 an hour or so at full load, not that it will ever see that.
I live in rural area. Not getting 3 was a problem over the uears but I sm pretty well past the need now. I would have bought big tools back in the day, mainly shear and brake.
4FN has the money to pay 30 large to bring it in for new 50 hp equipment. The Op is talking about scoring a used motor from work for a converter. Yes the 3 service is ideal,, at what cost? Same for the farmer giving up the easement,,, no/low cost,,, way different picture.

Ehhh unless you're really pushing these machines to the max a VFD will be more than enough for most hobby stuff. If its big **** then just get a rotary. What do you really gain by spending all those big dollars brining 3 phase in from the pole.

looks like a 30hp american rotary is right about 2,500 bucks. You'd be hard pressed to get 3p pulled into most shops for that kinda money if they even allow it.

 

[Bigredford]

I'm zoned A1 or intensive agriculture.

I had thought about 480 volt into the building but only because of the distance from the road.

I measured today and it's around 600' from the building to the road right of way.

 

[Matt Matt]

What I would give to have 600v! I would only want 60A. For now I only have 15A.

I with 480V 200A with a 30 kva trany.

 

[DSMR]

You're quick to criticize others, yet you post this in another thread: https://photos.app.goo.gl/3QUutYet9kUhv38d7 as an example of your own personal work?

That's a proper twist lock receptacle. The drywall guy cut it out kind of funky but I can add some trim if it bothered me, but it really doesn't, and I care more about the work I do in my shop than trying to impress men.

But on another note, searching my past post's like that borders on Ad hominem. You must be related to my old lady, searching really hard in my past to find a gotcha.

Wow that looks like ****?

And is that outside?

Drywall outside..... Wow.

Back on topic though: In Germany I read that many residences are supplied a standard of 230/400V. How do they survive with all of that dangerous voltage coarsing through their walls? Or is it only dangerous at 479V's and above

 

[alfredeneuman]

The OP's topic was "Electrical service for a metalworking shop", not "Euro voltages".

The drywall is just part of the issue. (BTW you're required to finish the drywall to within 1/8" of the box)
Covers like that are for surface installation, not flush.
A plaster ring and a flush cover is proper.
The box itself is farther out in one side than the other....(could it be from plugging and unplugging the twistlock?)

 

[DSMR]

I did not want the box to be mounted on the outside (personal preference). The 2x4 it's mounted to was twisted which is why it's out on one side. It is framed with cross braces in the wall which work quite well with the twist plug. Good thing it runs my equipment fine and your opinion of it means about as much as a wooden nickel.

You sure are focusing on me. Triggered much?

 

[alfredeneuman]

 

[sberry]

The box doesnt bother me. What the focus should be on is what is practical for this install.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The bracket on the box can be tweaked (bent slightly) to compensate for the twisted stud.

 

[Bigredford]

After I talk to a engineer again I'll update this thread.

 

[sberry]

Lots of great ideas here but can you afford them? I would loved to bave the ultimate power too but couldnt spring for the 120k to get it.

 

[4 FN 27]

likely a different budget here.

I saw no mention of Budget here. Simple a question of "How big should I go?" from the OP's first post. He asked and I gave my $0.02 with a bit of rational behind it and food for thought.

He can sort out the budget...it is his money.

Yes, I was having a brain seizure yesterday, figured it would be about 15 an hour or so at full load, not that it will ever see that.
I live in rural area. Not getting 3 was a problem over the uears but I sm pretty well past the need now. I would have bought big tools back in the day, mainly shear and brake.
4FN has the money to pay 30 large to bring it in for new 50 hp equipment. The Op is talking about scoring a used motor from work for a converter. Yes the 3 service is ideal,, at what cost? Same for the farmer giving up the easement,,, no/low cost,,, way different picture.

I am an investor with a certain expectation of return on my investment in most cases. However powering up my building as viewed in a different light...I want sleep insurance more so than a return. I want to know that I will not have power related issues with highly complex machining equipment and technology. Phase Converters are foreign to me and those who I know that have them have for a lack of better words "dirty power" which has created issues for them running their CNC machines.

Based on the investments I have made in my property I have a reasonable expectation of getting every dime back out of the property should I ever sell. The market will drive the sale price and it will be a very small limited demographic who will be able to buy the property. My goal is this will be my beneficiaries issue as I plan to live out my days playing in my well powered/equipped shop.

Based on the investments of 3 phase power and Geothermal HVAC and many other things it is affordable and has a calculated payback and a ROI which one can never really measure but come close to a number. The money saved can be used for other things if needed/wanted.

Lots of great ideas here but can you afford them? I would loved to bave the ultimate power too but couldnt spring for the 120k to get it.

Ideas are the value of this forum...everyone can stated their opinion and it is up to each individual to make the decision to follow advice or take their own course of action or inaction...of what is affordable based on sleep insurance or ROI.

Get what you want within your means...life is too short.

I will lead the horse to water but I won't **** on it's *** to get it to drink.

OP the water is over there →

Again good luck and let us know what you do.

 

[jeepxj]

Lots of great ideas here but can you afford them? I would loved to bave the ultimate power too but couldnt spring for the 120k to get it.

a 30hp rotary is like 6k. Are you ever really going to be running more than one or two machines on 3p at a time?

 

[sberry]

No, most wont. It's kind of my point. Some that advocate some ideas are not considering relevent cost. I can see a converter, great for some special modest machines. But another aspect is, yes I got a cheap welder but cost a lot to convert so maybe things aint such a bargain.

 

[sberry]

I know guys that done this, got welder for 200, spent 1500 to convert,,, to avoid buying a 500$ machine. Ha

 

[Matt Matt]

The 20 hp air compressor can be set up on a VFD on 100-125amp single phase line. The VFD is gonna cost you about $2000.

Usually 200 amp service single phase is more than enough for most situations.

I only have 115 A 240 SP to my machine shop. I do plan on pulling another 15-20A to isolate my lighting. I have a 5 hp and 20 hp RPC. The 20 hp is on a 60 amp ground fault circuit which is stepped up through a autotransformer to 600 V 15 amps. I’m using a 15 kVA 240=>600.

My personal feeling is the air compressor you are trying to implement is really hurting you. Unless you are running a large sandblasting or 2 Moore jig grinders or a lot of plasma cutting. If you really wanna save the air compressor, I personally put it on a 20 hp VFD and only run it at 45-50Hz, if the splash pump can handle the reduced speed.

My simple guess is the 20hp air compressor pump, puts out 60-70CFM at 90 psi. Do you really need this amount of recovery???

Putting this on a 30 hp RPC or 30 hp phase perfect might put your back $6000 +++.

A nice little 7.5 hp rotary screw will give you 25 CFM all day long....And you’ll hardly hear it running. This might put you back $6000-8000.

But if you’re just pulling single phase, you still need to convert to three-phase if you are in the market of purchasing used industrial three-phase equipment.

Just for shits and giggles, I have 6=>600 V and 4=>230 V three-phase Machines in my machine shop.

My woodworking shop all the three phase equipment is powered by Single phase input to three phase output Vfd‘s.

If you can get 480 3 phase from the road Under $20,000, do it! The property will be a diamond in the rough. You will need to investigate costs that will come along with three phase distribution.

I’ve been consulting on this situation and situations for about 1000 installs in about the last two years. The sky is the limit if $ are there.

You maybe classify/re-zone this property as commercial and have 5200 V dropped to a pad transformer.

 

[jeepxj]

mm 5200v. perfect for my home shop smelting rig

 

[Bigredford]

The goal of this shop is to provide extra income. If it grows into something I'm fine what that. If it doesn't take off I'm fine with that too.

Worst case scenario ill have a shop full of equipment I paid cash for and be able to build whatever I dream up.

In just chasing a dream I've had since high school.

I figured my options were 400 amp single phase or 200 amp or so three phase. First I wanted to figure out how much the wire would cost to go from the road to the shop. Then go from there.

 

[nsula_country]

The goal of this shop is to provide extra income. If it grows into something I'm fine what that. If it doesn't take off I'm fine with that too.

Worst case scenario ill have a shop full of equipment I paid cash for and be able to build whatever I dream up.

In just chasing a dream I've had since high school.

I figured my options were 400 amp single phase or 200 amp or so three phase. First I wanted to figure out how much the wire would cost to go from the road to the shop. Then go from there.

This is step 1. Every POCO has different rules and fees. Get a price for both.

After you know exactly what the POCO engineer offers, then comes how to get the supply to/in the building and what type of loadcenter/panelboard ect is needed to outfit your needs. Rest is just planning and installing conduit and wire.

Example. I had about 600'+ of 1P primary ran overhead to a pole with a 25K xformer with a ground pedestal for the tune of about $7k conveniently split out over 60 billing statements... I use about $20 worth of electricity and pay them about $135/mo. Then went about 100' underground from their pedestal to the meter pan on side of shop. Then to a 42 slot, 200A 1P panel. Viola! 200 amps of electricity dedicated to 4200 sq/ft of building. Needed or not. 100 amp service would have not been any cheaper.

CT

 

[sberry]

Right. And a 200 single would be a lot cheaper at that distance than 400. I agree about fees. I got them to extend the hi line some for free then there were fees with discounts for every motor,,, ha. Went from 3K to 0 if I had enough stuff,,, they left the load calc to me so I add 3 more to it.

 

[nsula_country]

Right. And a 200 single would be a lot cheaper at that distance than 400. I agree about fees. I got them to extend the hi line some for free then there were fees with discounts for every motor,,, ha. Went from 3K to 0 if I had enough stuff,,, they left the load calc to me so I add 3 more to it.

Not really. Only increase at their expense would have been swap 25k for a 50k xformer. Increase would have been on my end for upsizing conduit, wire, loadcenter or panelboard, ect. Since it was a dead end line, they were not even interested a load calc or any discounts. 100% expense starting at the first foot of wire.

Construction fees, primary wire, pedestal, ect would have been about the same. Dollar or 2 a month for first 5 years. No change in monthly meter fee. I have a 320A at the house. Line extension fee has been paid for it. About 3 years left on shop.

I was about 99% sure that I would not need 400A/320A at the shop. But I could have done either for about the same POCO money.

CT