Electrical wiring question. Mystified.

[Coach James]

Hey guys,

I opened an outlet in my building this morning. The outlet has not been used in years. Here is the situation.

I checked it first with my outlet tester and no lights came on. When I pushed on it, the outlet went into the wall and the tester lit up with two lights indicating wired correctly, but only when I pushed it into the wall.

I pulled the outlet out of the wall and there is a white wire marked out as hot(black tape) attached to a neutral screw. No wire attached to a hot screw. It does have a ground. There is a black wire that is cut in the box that might have contacted a brass screw when I pushed the outlet into the wall.

What is going on with this? And how do I connect the new outlet?

Thanks
Coach

 

[unslow1]

Too me that picture looks like the hot wire is the broken black one.

Do you have a noncontact voltage tester?

 

[raddksn]

Too me that picture looks like the hot wire is the broken black one.

Do you have a noncontact voltage tester?

that's my bet as well!

 

[markushofer27]

They probably used the black tape to repair damaged insulation on the neutral, check for 120v between black and ground.

 

[Coach James]

Too me that picture looks like the hot wire is the broken black one.

Do you have a noncontact voltage tester?

Yes, I just checked it and the cut, black wire is hot.

Would a hot wire be attached to the neutral screw if the outlet is in the middle of a circuit.?

Coach

 

[signcrafter]

The tape is just for a damaged wire, not marking it as hot. The white neutral goes to silver screw as it should. Your hot wire is the black that is broken in the picture. I'm guessing it broke and when you pushed the outlet in then it made contact again. You'll have to extend the wire out with a wire nut and short piece of wire and attach to outlet and should be good to go.

 

[signcrafter]

Yes, I just checked it and the cut, black wire is hot.

Would a hot wire be attached to the neutral screw if the outlet is in the middle of a circuit.?

Coach

No. That broken black wire should have gone to the gold screw, and that is the only way your tester would have lit up as being correct.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Yikes! I'm with the others, the true hot wire, black one dangling in space, must contact the screw or some other metallic part of the hot on the outlet when you push it in. Note it has black tape as well.

What the F are all of those other wires in there? You might have too many connections in that box. If they're all tied together with little pigtails powering the outlet, you should change it up and use the outlet as the daisy chain point.

Use your meter to verify power is off, remove tape from both wires, and inspect insulation. Cut and strip further back if necessary. Use needle nose pliers to create a hook, then install around screw terminal of new outlet. Don't use push-in terminals if they are on the new outlet.

 

[markushofer27]

Black on gold, white on silver, bare on ground

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Would a hot wire be attached to the neutral screw if the outlet is in the middle of a circuit.?

No. Hot always goes to hot, neutral always to neutral. If it's in the middle of a circuit, it should use the two screws on each side as in/out connections.

 

[MoonRise]

Oh boy.

The only way I can think of that the outlet lit up the tester and showed 'good' would be (as you guessed) if the black hot wire stub touched the 'brass' screw when you pushed the outlet back into the box.

Black wire (hot) goes to the 'brass' terminal.

White wire (neutral) goes to the white/silver terminal.

Green/bare ground goes to the green ground terminal.

To fix that craziness, turn the power off and remove the outlet.

Make sure the wires are separated and then turn the power back on.

Then CAREFULLY test the wires to see which is actually the hot and which is the neutral and make sure that the ground is actually a ground.

Oh, and that outlet AND the wiring box are WAY too recessed (outlet MUST be pretty much flush with the wall surface, wiring box must be flush with the wall surface if the wall is combustible like wood or a max of 1/4" recessed if the wall is noncombustible like drywall or masonry). You'll need a "box extender" to fix the recess problem.

Looks like you'll have to be a gardener as well as an electrician now, because you'll have to do some digging.

 

[cmandp]

Yes, I just checked it and the cut, black wire is hot.

Would a hot wire be attached to the neutral screw if the outlet is in the middle of a circuit.?

Coach

It shouldn't be if wired properly. I would probably replace that outlet make sure the hot wire that broke is okay and make sure you use the screws on the new outlet, no back stabs. I feel like someone messed with that outlet before and didn't really know what they were doing.

If you don't have enough length with the existing wires, make a pigtail.

I would strip the hot back more it looks like the copper broke from work hardening after being flexed too much.

 

[Coach James]

No. Hot always goes to hot, neutral always to neutral. If it's in the middle of a circuit, it should use the two screws on each side as in/out connections.

Sorry, I worded that badly. I was referring to the white with the black tape on it.

Thanks.

Coach

 

[Coach James]

Thanks guys. All done. Not sure who did the previous work on that outlet, I have never seen an outlet done that bad before. I had a few outlets left over from a couple weeks ago replacing several other ones in the building. New outlet is working fine.

I need to get a spacer for the outlet still. When the wainscoting was put up, they did not bring the outlet out flush with it.

Many thanks for the help. This is a great forum.

Coach

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow after reading through 13 replies im surprised not one person mentioned the back-stabbed outlet as the cause.

Use the screws and not the back-wire terminals

 

[Lassen Forge]

I had an issue with our bathroom heater, the original vent/heater switch was all backstabbed, no allowance for side terminals. It was fine until the 50 year old switch finally gave up the ghost after being used all these years...

Unfortunately, the only way to repair it, short of tearing out the wall, was to find a replacement NOS switch. It is the ONLY switch in the house that's backstabbed. Do I like it? No. But I will keep an eye on it.

 

[rlitman]

Wow after reading through 13 replies im surprised not one person mentioned the back-stabbed outlet as the cause.

Use the screws and not the back-wire terminals

Although I despise back-stabbed outlets, that was not the cause here.

The cause here was that someone got overzealous when stripping the black wire, severely nicking the copper. They then pushed the wire into the back-stab, and in pulling the outlet out, the damaged copper parted at the point where it was stripped.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Although I despise back-stabbed outlets, that was not the cause here.

The cause here was that someone got overzealous when stripping the black wire, severely nicking the copper. They then pushed the wire into the back-stab, and in pulling the outlet out, the damaged copper parted at the point where it was stripped.

How did you figure all that out without seeing a close up of the stripped wire?

Furthermore, youre theory is incorrect seeing as how the black tape on the black wire does not go all the way to the end of the black wire. It stops about 1/2”-3/4” back before the end.

 

[ddawg16]

Wow after reading through 13 replies im surprised not one person mentioned the back-stabbed outlet as the cause.

Use the screws and not the back-wire terminals

Although I despise back-stabbed outlets, that was not the cause here.

The cause here was that someone got overzealous when stripping the black wire, severely nicking the copper. They then pushed the wire into the back-stab, and in pulling the outlet out, the damaged copper parted at the point where it was stripped.

I think you're both right.

I've been slowly replacing the outlets in my in-laws house. Every one of them is back stabbed...and no pigtail. They had issues with the TV acting up. I put my meter on the outlet...121Vac...put a 10A load on the ckt....it dropped to 112.

 

[rlitman]

How did you figure all that out without seeing a close up of the stripped wire?

Furthermore, youre theory is incorrect seeing as how the black tape on the black wire does not go all the way to the end of the black wire. It stops about 1/2”-3/4” back before the end.

I'm not sure how the tape is relevant. The white wire is also taped, in the same pointless way. That just tells me that the box was done by someone incompetent.

The view of the wire is close enough to see that it does not extend beyond the insulation significantly. A back-stabbed outlet will not cause the wire to break at that point. The only logical answer is that the copper was damaged before it was back-stabbed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not sure how the tape is relevant. The white wire is also taped, in the same pointless way. That just tells me that the box was done by someone incompetent.

The view of the wire is close enough to see that it does not extend beyond the insulation significantly. A back-stabbed outlet will not cause the wire to break at that point. The only logical answer is that the copper was damaged before it was back-stabbed.

you said someone was overzealous but no way to tell that from the pics. other than maybe possible damage under the tape.

As to the back stabbed connection not causing this failure, Ive seen it happen on numerous service calls back when i did lots of them

The back-stabbed connection gets hot then cools, then repeats the cycle over and over again. The copper gets anodized and weak then when the outlet is pulled out, it snaps right at the end of the insulation

 

[rlitman]

you said someone was overzealous but no way to tell that from the pics. other than maybe possible damage under the tape.

As to the back stabbed connection not causing this failure, Ive seen it happen on numerous service calls back when i did lots of them

The back-stabbed connection gets hot then cools, then repeats the cycle over and over again. The copper gets anodized and weak then when the outlet is pulled out, it snaps right at the end of the insulation

Sort of. The heat cycling will work harden the copper. But the copper will only break at the end of the insulation if it was damaged when it was stripped. Had it been done cleanly in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue. Or, at worst, it would part where the spring digs into it, about 1/4" from the insulation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ive had service calls where the end of the wire broke off and it was not knicked

 

[Terry D]

Correct me if wrong. That is a back wired outlet, not a back stabbed. That looks like pressure plates behind the screws . Anyway, the wire still broke off. Ive seen people strip wires with kleins instead of strippers, and this happens

 

[ddawg16]

One of the issues with back stab connections, the wire goes in through that hole. That hole acts like a perfect little bend point.....as the outlet is moved around, if the insulation is not inside that hole, then it's easier for the wire to bend right at the hole...

If you have a nick right there....and the outlet is not snug against the box (every time something is plugged or unplugged, the outlet moves).....and heating cycle....well....eventually the wire fatigues right there.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Correct me if wrong. That is a back wired outlet, not a back stabbed. That looks like pressure plates behind the screws . Anyway, the wire still broke off. Ive seen people strip wires with kleins instead of strippers, and this happens

Hard to tell if its a back-wired pressure plate style spec grade outlet or a push-wire style backstabbed outlet

 

[Terry D]

Hard to tell if its a back-wired pressure plate style spec grade outlet or a push-wire style backstabbed outlet

Yeah I know, to me it doesn't look like a residential grade device. A picture of the back would tell

 

[Coach James]

Thanks for all the feedback. The one connected wire was not backstabbed, it was back wired. I would put up a picture of the back of the outlet, but I threw it away after I replaced it.

Coach

 

[teamextreme]

I think that both black and white wires were damaged at some point, likely not from stripping because it didn't break at the strip point. Maybe from someone starting to cut both wires with Kleins, then realizing they didn't want to do that and stopped. The black was damaged enough that the copper was compromised as well as the insulation and it eventually broke. They taped both conductors to try to repair the damage. I would inspect the condition of the white wire under that tape.

 

[sparky 1971]

It's fixed so this doesn't matter. My guess is that, based on the piss poor job of folding the wires back into the box, the tape is due to a roto zip chewing up the wires. The broken wire because someone used a #14 stripper on a #12 wire. (Or #16 on a #14). I have been guilty of that before, but I know as soon as it happens and start over.

 

[ddawg16]

It's fixed so this doesn't matter. My guess is that, based on the piss poor job of folding the wires back into the box, the tape is due to a roto zip chewing up the wires. The broken wire because someone used a #14 stripper on a #12 wire. (Or #16 on a #14). I have been guilty of that before, but I know as soon as it happens to start over.

Or just a pair of dykes

I've never done that..............................................

 

[dave*99]

you said someone was overzealous but no way to tell that from the pics. other than maybe possible damage under the tape.

As to the back stabbed connection not causing this failure, Ive seen it happen on numerous service calls back when i did lots of them

The back-stabbed connection gets hot then cools, then repeats the cycle over and over again. The copper gets anodized and weak then when the outlet is pulled out, it snaps right at the end of the insulation

Maybe you mean annealed. Copper can't be anodized. Copper Aluminum alloys can be anodized, but those are not used in this application.