Electrical wiring question

[fmemon]

I am in the process of planning out an installation for a 60A subpanel in my garage and would like to verify that I have all my bases covered, so I'm going to provide all the detail that I possibly can which I think would be useful/beneficial for anyone to provide some help.

The logistics of my house are as follows:

1. Unfinished basement - routing wires will not present an issue because of this
2. Finished garage

This is my materials lists:

1. Subpanel and breakers - 100A subpanel (I'm using a 100A panel instead of a 60A panel so I have some more spaces and a spot to do a quick shutoff in the garage. I won't be using more 30-40A with everything that I have turned on)
2. 60A breaker for main panel in basement (I have to verify which manufacturer breaker I need) - 60A breaker
3. 6AWG copper wire (Needed confirmation that this is the right size wire to use) (It is my understanding that this size wire can be stapled to the underside of the joists, is this right?)
4. 3/4" or 1" conduit
5. Conduit fittings
6. Junction box

Here is the stuff I need help with. You'll have to pardon the mess in the garage as I am still getting everything where it belongs.

I need help routing the wire from the basement to the garage. The 6AWG wire will be entering the garage in an area near a place where some low voltage wires for my sprinkler system is entering the garage.
Image 1
Image 2

The wire you see is the wire for the sprinkler system. The electrical wire will be coming into the garage in a similar fashion. Based on my understanding, I will need a junction box or conduit body attached to the wall where the wire will be entering the garage. My thoughts were to use this thing: Conduit Body. Is there anything else or something else that I should use to go from unfinished to a finished location for an electrical run?

From there I would go to the appropriate size conduit and run it along the baseboard that you can see in these pictures:
Image 3
Image 4

The panel would ultimately be installed to the right hand side of this window:
Image 5

I am planning on putting my workbench under the subpanel. I'm not sure if there would be any cause for concern to do this. I would do this in a way that would allow me to get in front of the subpanel easily if needed and the workbench will also have wheels for easy removal from the area if necessary.

Any help that you guys can provide would be much appreciated.

 

[RunninOnEmpty]

About how long would the run between the main panel and subpanel be? If super long, you might want to go #4 or #5 (#5 is rare) but otherwise #6 is fine, which is likely the case.

Clicking your pictures takes me to a Yahoo login prompt which is sort of annoying... Please use a free host that doesn't require login, such as imgur. Though the resized down versions display so I guess that's good enough..

 

[alfredeneuman]

6-3 NM copper cable is fine to run in the unfinished basement, and can be stapled to the bottom of the joists.

When it emerges into the garage, use a Junction Box instead of a Conduit body.

Pull individual conductors in the EMT rather than using NM. 1" EMT is fine with individual conductors. You'd need need a MUCH bigger conduit with the NM.

You have to have a 36" deep X 30" wide workspace in front of the panel by Code, thus no workbench under it. The workspace extends to the ceiling, so no shelving etc. can be installed above it either.

 

[astroracer]

Can I ask some questions?
I see the gargae is drywalled so I am assuming you are going to run conduit for all of your outlets?
If so why not put the breaker box on the same wall where it comes out of the house? Sure would save a bunch in #6 cable costs. Running the outlets around the garage from there will work just as well.
What size is the house box? If you have room for a 100amp pull to the garage do it now. Even if you don't "plan" to ever use it, you may need a welder and big compressor some day... (Need is a relative term)
Mark

 

[Mustang51js]

If you plan on getting it inspected you will need a main breaker retainer clip for the subpanel

 

[alfredeneuman]

If you plan on getting it inspected you will need a main breaker retainer clip for the subpanel

He said in the original post
"2. 60A breaker for main panel in basement"

It doesn't need a breaker in the subpanel because it's in the same structure.
That applies only to backfed breakers

 

[Mustang51js]

Usually if it's not in sight the inspectors want a main on the sub panel. At least around here they do

 

[fmemon]

I want to thank everyone for the responses. I have a few more questions based on the responses you guys gave me.

About how long would the run between the main panel and subpanel be? If super long, you might want to go #4 or #5 (#5 is rare) but otherwise #6 is fine, which is likely the case.

Clicking your pictures takes me to a Yahoo login prompt which is sort of annoying... Please use a free host that doesn't require login, such as imgur. Though the resized down versions display so I guess that's good enough..

The run between the main panel and subpanel would be about 50-55 feet max.

Sorry about the flickr account thing. My phone wasn't letting me upload on imgur for whatever reason. I'll keep it in mind for next time though.

6-3 NM copper cable is fine to run in the unfinished basement, and can be stapled to the bottom of the joists.

When it emerges into the garage, use a Junction Box instead of a Conduit body.

Pull individual conductors in the EMT rather than using NM. 1" EMT is fine with individual conductors. You'd need need a MUCH bigger conduit with the NM.

You have to have a 36" deep X 30" wide workspace in front of the panel by Code, thus no workbench under it. The workspace extends to the ceiling, so no shelving etc. can be installed above it either.

What size junction box would be sufficient for wire of that size? I want to make sure that I have sufficient room to make all the connections inside the box. This is the box that I've used in other electrical work I've done in the past: 2 gang box

Can I ask some questions?
I see the gargae is drywalled so I am assuming you are going to run conduit for all of your outlets?
If so why not put the breaker box on the same wall where it comes out of the house? Sure would save a bunch in #6 cable costs. Running the outlets around the garage from there will work just as well.
What size is the house box? If you have room for a 100amp pull to the garage do it now. Even if you don't "plan" to ever use it, you may need a welder and big compressor some day... (Need is a relative term)
Mark

I could put the panel on the wall where the wires come out. My thinking was to bring the panel over to the area where I would be adding all the outlets and lighting to reduce the amount of work I would need to do in the future if I wanted to run extra outlets. But I may end up doing what you're saying. It would just take some extra time to move stuff around and rearrange it elsewhere.

The house box is 200A. What wire would I have to use to support 100A? Would that be a 2AWG wire?

If you plan on getting it inspected you will need a main breaker retainer clip for the subpanel

I've never heard of a main breaker retainer clip for a subpanel. What is the intent of that? Does that permanently keep the power to the subpanel on?

He said in the original post
"2. 60A breaker for main panel in basement"

It doesn't need a breaker in the subpanel because it's in the same structure.
That applies only to backfed breakers

Is it safer to add the retainer clip to the panel or is it safer without? I would like to have a local shutoff in the garage so I don't have to do down to the basement to shut power off at the subpanel. But I also want to be able to shut down the power to the garage if needed from the basement too.

 

[RunninOnEmpty]

The run between the main panel and subpanel would be about 50-55 feet max.

Sounds fairly long and it might be worth using thicker wire, but I can't answer this definitively. Not a safety issue either way, just that using the bare minimum wire gauge for longer runs can generate a higher-than-desired voltage drop when you're using the line at its full capacity. In fact in the place I live now, we had 2 space heaters on one circuit - both fairly low wattage and not enough to trip the breaker - but using both at once would drop the line voltage in those rooms down from 115-120v (remember, 120v is nominal in the US - NOT 110 or 115 no matter how many people use those numbers) to about 100. It made the lights dim somewhat and my UPS (uninterruptable power supply AKA battery backup) for my PC would often go into battery mode (and if not that it would at least go into voltage boost mode).

Is it safer to add the retainer clip to the panel or is it safer without? I would like to have a local shutoff in the garage so I don't have to do down to the basement to shut power off at the subpanel. But I also want to be able to shut down the power to the garage if needed from the basement too.

As long as the fuse in your main panel is low enough to not allow the wire to overheat enough to catch fire, your safety goals are accomplished. But the problem is that code is often ridiculous and calls for a lot of unnecessary things. You gain absolutely nothing from having a 60A breaker in both the main and sub-panels. But there likely are requirements like that. I'm an electronics guy not an electrician by trade so I can't answer as far as code goes, but the retaining clip may very well be required by code. It's not the first time I've heard that advice.

Also, inspectors themselves often have their own requirements that are not law (not even town law). Unfortunately, for the most part, what they say goes, and they can make you do pretty much anything they want.

You could actually use #8 wire for this and have no risk of a fire, but don't actually do that because the voltage drop would definitely be significant. Per code wire ratings are at low temperatures (I believe the 70*F rating is used) but wire (and insulation and drywall etc) can get quite a lot hotter before becoming a safety issue. But again it would be an issue with the voltage drop, and also the voltage dropped in the wires would amount to a substantial amount of electricity wasted. So code for this does make sense. But code doesn't always make quite so much sense. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[Redwolf947]

I'd like to note the OP stated he is going to use a MAIN panel in the garage for his sub. "Subpanel and breakers - Homeline 100 Amp 24-Space 24-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Load Center with Cover Value Pack.

This would eliminate the need for a back fed breaker with main breaker retainer clip. Correct?

 

[alfredeneuman]

I'd like to note the OP stated he is going to use a MAIN panel in the garage for his sub. "Subpanel and breakers - Homeline 100 Amp 24-Space 24-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Load Center with Cover Value Pack.

This would eliminate the need for a back fed breaker with main breaker retainer clip. Correct?

Yes it would.

But, any panel that's in the same structure doesn't need to have a main breaker. In a separate structure, yes.

There's NO Code requirement to that says it must be so.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds fairly long and it might be worth using thicker wire, but I can't answer this definitively. Not a safety issue either way, just that using the bare minimum wire gauge for longer runs can generate a higher-than-desired voltage drop when you're using the line at its full capacity. In fact in the place I live now, we had 2 space heaters on one circuit - both fairly low wattage and not enough to trip the breaker - but using both at once would drop the line voltage in those rooms down from 115-120v (remember, 120v is nominal in the US - NOT 110 or 115 no matter how many people use those numbers) to about 100. It made the lights dim somewhat and my UPS (uninterruptable power supply AKA battery backup) for my PC would often go into battery mode (and if not that it would at least go into voltage boost mode).

As long as the fuse in your main panel is low enough to not allow the wire to overheat enough to catch fire, your safety goals are accomplished. But the problem is that code is often ridiculous and calls for a lot of unnecessary things. You gain absolutely nothing from having a 60A breaker in both the main and sub-panels. But there likely are requirements like that. I'm an electronics guy not an electrician by trade so I can't answer as far as code goes, but the retaining clip may very well be required by code. It's not the first time I've heard that advice.

Also, inspectors themselves often have their own requirements that are not law (not even town law). Unfortunately, for the most part, what they say goes, and they can make you do pretty much anything they want.

You could actually use #8 wire for this and have no risk of a fire, but don't actually do that because the voltage drop would definitely be significant. Per code wire ratings are at low temperatures (I believe the 70*F rating is used) but wire (and insulation and drywall etc) can get quite a lot hotter before becoming a safety issue. But again it would be an issue with the voltage drop, and also the voltage dropped in the wires would amount to a substantial amount of electricity wasted. So code for this does make sense. But code doesn't always make quite so much sense. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

So many things wrong here:

First bold:
Seriously, did u do a voltage drop calc? Do u even know what the NEC recommended VD % is? That distance is NOT that far to warrant a wire size increase.

Second bold quote:

U actually DO gain something: a main disconnect that enables u to shut off power locally instead of having to go the main panel. No its NOT required by code because its in the same building. And the retaining clip is for BACKFED MAIN BREAKERS, and doesnt apply to the OP since he is using a main breaker panel. I dont even know why Mustang brought that up!

Third bold:

Please dont say that u cant comment on code because u dont know it and then try to quote code. 70* F? Are u kidding me? Wire temp ratings are 60* 75* and 90* CELSIUS!!

And NM-b wiring is limited to 60* ampacities..So no he CANT use #8 NM-b wire OR THHn because he wants to do a 60a feed... Yes that advice could very well end up with a fire if feeds it with a 60a breaker...

I'd like to note the OP stated he is going to use a MAIN panel in the garage for his sub. "Subpanel and breakers - Homeline 100 Amp 24-Space 24-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Load Center with Cover Value Pack.

This would eliminate the need for a back fed breaker with main breaker retainer clip. Correct?

Yes And since the OP is using a main he PROBABLY needs to buy a ground bar and isolate the neutral bar...

 

[fmemon]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been out of town for work, so the project got put on the back burners for a few days. I ended up redoing the layout on the garage based on feedback from everyone here.

I will now be placing the subpanel in the corner where the wires come out on the same wall as the shovels. There is about 5.5ft from the corner of the wall to the shovel handles, so it should be sufficient space for the panel.
Corner where subpanel will be located -

The wires will run across the wall from the first garage stall to the third stall, where the 'workshop' will be.
Middle garage stall -

Third garage stall/shop area -

Here is the updated shopping list that I will be using to run all my electrical:

1. Breaker panel
   100A main panel or 125A load center
   The 'load center' looks like it was intended for garages and extending main panels in basements, so it may be a better option
   Based on my research, a main breaker retainer clip will only be needed for a backfed panel, and since I won't be connecting a generator to the subpanel, this should not be applicable to me. Is this right?
2. 60A (100A if cost of wire is not significantly more) breaker for main panel
   60A breaker
3. 6-3 NM cable
   Cable
   Thicker cable will be used if 100A service is used
4. 6awg conductor
   Single conductor
   Appropriate colors will be used to make necessary connections
5. Junction box (not sure what kind of box would have enough room here)
   Basement to garage
   Is there a better junction box I should be using or will this suffice?
6. Conduit for junction box to panel
   Flex conduit
   I was thinking about using flexible due to space limitations for running the rigid conduit. Each flexible conduit line will have a single conductor running through it to the panel.
   Is there any issue with using this stuff?
7. Conduit to outlets from panel
   Rigid conduit for outlet runs
   Sizing will be chosen accordingly

 

[sberry]

Should we be surprised running to heaters on the circuit tripped the breaker. Its why its there. The op wont overload a a 60 and he wouldn't burn it down with an 8 on a 60 either but it doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[Mustang51js]

U actually DO gain something: a main disconnect that enables u to shut off power locally instead of having to go the main panel. No its NOT required by code because its in the same building. And the retaining clip is for BACKFED MAIN BREAKERS, and doesnt apply to the OP since he is using a main breaker panel. I dont even know why Mustang brought that up!



He never says he is using a main breaker panel as a sub, it said 100 amp panel on a 60 amp breaker. Everything is how your inspector interprets the code,if I were to install a say panel out of sight of the main they want a main breaker on the sub. By you it may be different,just giving my experiences dealing with inspectors

 

[fmemon]

U actually DO gain something: a main disconnect that enables u to shut off power locally instead of having to go the main panel. No its NOT required by code because its in the same building. And the retaining clip is for BACKFED MAIN BREAKERS, and doesnt apply to the OP since he is using a main breaker panel. I dont even know why Mustang brought that up!



He never says he is using a main breaker panel as a sub, it said 100 amp panel on a 60 amp breaker. Everything is how your inspector interprets the code,if I were to install a say panel out of sight of the main they want a main breaker on the sub. By you it may be different,just giving my experiences dealing with inspectors

I was intending on using a main breaker panel as the sub panel. I should have been more clear.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

He never says he is using a main breaker panel as a sub, it said 100 amp panel on a 60 amp breaker. Everything is how your inspector interprets the code,if I were to install a say panel out of sight of the main they want a main breaker on the sub. By you it may be different,just giving my experiences dealing with inspectors

I guess u missed the part where he provided a link to the MAIN BREAKER panel that he is using...

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-H...3001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6147012-_-11210757&cj=true

So i stand by my earlier comments/question about why u mentioned needing a retainer kit...

I was intending on using a main breaker panel as the sub panel. I should have been more clear.

OP dont forget to buy a ground bar kit if it doesnt have one and remove the bonding screw on the neutral bar...

 

[Mustang51js]

I guess u missed the part where he provided a link to the MAIN BREAKER panel that he is using...

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-H...3001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6147012-_-11210757&cj=true

So i stand by my earlier comments/question about why u mentioned needing a retainer kit...



OP dont forget to buy a ground bar kit if it doesnt have one and remove the bonding screw on the neutral bar...

I was going by the first post

 

[Mustang51js]

And I guess he's going with 100 amp sub panel and not the 60 he was talking about,because I have not seen a 60 amp main panel with a breaker on it. I know none of that matters because he's not using a main breaker in the sub,because the breakers should match each other

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was going by the first post

Omg seriously? He said it in his FIRST POST!! #1 in the list has the link to the panel...

And I guess he's going with 100 amp sub panel and not the 60 he was talking about,because I have not seen a 60 amp main panel with a breaker on it. I know none of that matters because he's not using a main breaker in the sub,because the breakers should match each other

Huh what are u talking about?

I dont think youre following. The 60a breaker is for the main panel to feed the subpanel....

Helps to go back and reread things a few times...

 

[Mustang51js]

So your ok with putting a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and then hooking it up to a 100 amp breaker in the sub panel to use as the disconnect,have to make sure the kW ratings are the same

 

[alfredeneuman]

have to make sure the kW ratings are the same

That makes no sense to me at all.
Please elaborate.

 

[Mustang51js]

That makes no sense to me at all.
Please elaborate.

Meant KA rating on breakers,they have to be the same. And as far as the link in the first post,sorry i missed the underlined word

 

[Mustang51js]

The best thing to do is call your inspector and ask what he likes,if your not getting an inspection then you can fo whatever ypu want

 

[alfredeneuman]

The best thing to do is call your inspector and ask what he likes,if your not getting an inspection then you can fo whatever ypu want

It doesn't matter what the inspector "likes, wants, or interprets"". The inspector HAS to inspect by the Code as written PERIOD.
(That includes having a main breaker in a sub in the same structure. NJ is no different and they don't have a special "within sight of" rule regarding the subject. I've read the NJ Electrical Code)

The other issue has nothing do with kw.
It has to do with the KAmps Interrupting Capacity (how much amperage the breaker could instantaneously withstand during a fault without failure and letting the current pass through). They don't have to match, as long as the 60 has the proper rating, the 100 could have more or in certain circumstances,less.

 

[fmemon]

I completed part of the wiring for the sub panel in my garage. I ended up going with a main lug panel since that was much more economical.

For the wire, I used 4-3 SER. I've attached pictures of the setup here.

I disconnected the bonding strap for the ground bar and neutral bar, so both are isolated. I checked to verify with a multimeter for isolation. I'll be connecting to the main panel tomorrow.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The ground bar SHOULD NOT be isolated from the enclosure.

But looking at your pics, it appears u have the bonding strap connected to the ground bar and panel.

I would have used No-A Lox on the AL wire...

 

[fmemon]

The ground bar SHOULD NOT be isolated from the enclosure.

But looking at your pics, it appears u have the bonding strap connected to the ground bar and panel.

I would have used No-A Lox on the AL wire...

The ground bar is connected by a bonding strap to the enclosure.

I didn't know about the noalox stuff. Just looked into it. I'll get some tomorrow. This is the first time I've worked with aluminum.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The ground bar is connected by a bonding strap to the enclosure.

I didn't know about the noalox stuff. Just looked into it. I'll get some tomorrow. This is the first time I've worked with aluminum.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I only brought up the part about the ground bar cause u said both bars are isolated...

 

[fmemon]

I only brought up the part about the ground bar cause u said both bars are isolated...

Gotcha. I meant to say they were isolated from each other.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[fmemon]

I'm about to start wiring the outlets and wanted to clear up a couple things. I'm going to be running 12 awg thhn and wanted to know if I can use one color wire for line and neutral as long as I have it color coded with some electrical tape?

I have a bunch of red thhn wire and wanted to use that with having a black electrical tape ribbon near the end.

 

[Redwolf947]

I've read with that gauge wire, tape color coding is not allowed. Unless its a switch leg. Hopefully a guru will clarify.


Note: I'm not an electrician.

 

[fmemon]

Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that only white and green wires could not be marked. Other colors can be remarked. I was planning on marking the red wire with black and red tape to differentiate between to two sets of lines.