Electrician installed wrong size wire

[mach158]

So long story short I recently discovered the wire I had an electrician install 2 years ago is to small for the service he was suppose to be installing it for.

I asked for the electrician to install a 100 amp sub panel in my barn which is around 230' from the panel in the house. I wanted 240 volts to be supplied out there as well. He used #4 Al wire. At the time I did not know any better and assumed he should know what we was doing.

The reason I just discovered this is because I thought he was going to call and have the inspector come for the final inspection then discovered he never did and by then a storm had ruined the barn enough that it was getting torn down and I then built my shop which I have a thread on in garage gallery.

So I decided to do the electrical myself after finding out I could, as I thought initially any sub panel had to be installed by an electrician. So I called the electrical inspector and he advised me that #4 Al is not enough for 100 amp service.

I decided to look into a little more and discovered he should have installed 1/0 Al at a minimum.

I realized I could have done a few things different but I never dealt with service lines before, only interior wiring.

Now my problem is, how do I deal with this situation? Will I be fighting with the electrician to remedy this since it has been 2 years and his original permit was closed because the building was demolished and a new one built so time ran out on that permit? My other problem is I just had my concrete poured and conduit in place which is 1.25" which is great for the #4 Al but no where big enough for the 1/0 Al, so now I need to core out the concrete because that is the only way the wire is coming in. My gut told me to go to 2" conduit for future purposes but I already had the 1.25' so I held off. I did run an empty 1.25' conduit as a backup for future use I could use.

I do still have his original quote for service that noted a 100 amp service.

Sorry for the long rant, just had to get it out.

 

[slodat]

Using copper wire will reduce the overall diameter of the conductors..

 

[CNGsaves]

Check into Statute of Limitations in small claims for possible recovery of what you paid hack electrician. You may be SOL as 2 yrs often is S.O.L. (statute of limitations) . . . . . ironic this is same SOL acronym !!

I'd recommend you start plotting new route to bury 2" plastic conduit around the perimeter of shop. Heck you may even want 3" to give you plenty of room and ease in pulling wire that will need oversized due to distance. Sparky guru's on GJ will chime in with Al and Cu options for wire that length and 100A.

Your 1.25" conduit can be used for low voltage like internet, CATV, phone, security, etc.

 

[jd_1138]

Did you call the guy and tell him? Maybe he will step up to the plate and fix it. I know, I know -- probably won't but worth a shot.

 

[mach158]

It will be 2 years in Oct since the bid and I never received the invoice for payment until 11/27/2013 so I have a little time yet.

 

[mach158]

Did you call the guy and tell him? Maybe he will step up to the plate and fix it. I know, I know -- probably won't but worth a shot.

I will next week. I just discovered this and have not had a chance yet but the plan is to contact him next week and see what he says. I am just seeing what, if any, choices I may have.

 

[CNGsaves]

I will next week. I just discovered this and have not had a chance yet but the plan is to contact him next week and see what he says. I am just seeing what, if any, choices I may have.

Call him on speakerphone . . . and TAPE RECORD the conversation !!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

At that distance shouldve been minimum 1/0 AL which would be 3.9% VD or #2 CU with 3.7% VD at full load.

I would make him correct it. Say u will file a complaint on his license with the state if he refuses. Or u could make him pay the money back!

Did he use a 100a breaker, in the main panel, for the feed? #4 AL is only good for 65a....

 

[mach158]

At that distance shouldve been minimum 1/0 AL which would be 3.9% VD or #2 CU with 3.7% VD at full load.

I would make him correct it. Say u will file a complaint on his license with the state if he refuses. Or u could make him pay the money back!

Did he use a 100a breaker, in the main panel, for the feed? #4 AL is only good for 65a....

Yes, he installed a 100 amp breaker in the main panel.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

 

[BikerDad]

Do you actually need 100 amps of service? Or did you want the spaces of a 100 amp panel? If you don't need 100, you can swap the breaker out and carry on. This obviously doesn't address the less than ethical behavior of the electrician, but it may be able to get you up and functioning.

 

[mach158]

The future plans for the shop will require the use of a 100 amp panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, he installed a 100 amp breaker in the main panel.

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Wow. Thats a liability.

Is he licensed?

The future plans for the shop will require the use of a 100 amp panel.

U mean 100a capability? U can have a 100a panel on a less than 100a feeder...

 

[mach158]

Wow. Thats a liability.

Is he licensed?



U mean 100a capability? U can have a 100a panel on a less than 100a feeder...

Yes he is licensed and it was wired to 2011 code per his bid in 2013.

Yes, 100a capability. Sorry for the confusion.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No way was that to code!

 

[barnjunkie]

That's one big heater wire you've got there.

 

[Aceman]

You want a 100 amp panel but how much electrical load will you have in your new building? Make a list of equipment, lights, etc and post it on here if you can.

 

[straps57]

Old work has nothing to do with the new work. He doesn't owe you anything since you didn't loose anything. He didn't charge you for something he didn't do, he didn't pour concrete, run conduit, etc. It's a little unclear if it was to code when he did the work. Did they change the code in between 2011 and 2013? Inspectors aren't always right either.

 

[Falcon67]

You want a 100 amp panel but how much electrical load will you have in your new building? Make a list of equipment, lights, etc and post it on here if you can.

Not the point - OP asked for 100A service and got something amounting to 50~60A with a 100A breaker on the wire. IMHO that isn't code now nor was it in 2011, or 2001 or 1991. The breaker is there to protect the wire and the wire is clearly undersized. OP did not get what he was quoted and contracted for. You pay a licensed professional for a certain quality of work.

 

[trainer]

Call him and ask him to make it right.

If he tells you to pound sand, a nice little rant on Facebook naming the contractor and the inspector who signed off on the installation can do wonders. Include a photo or two of the undersized wire that he connected to the 100a breaker in the main panel.

Share your post on a couple of local buy/sell groups and Craigslist while you're at it.

 

[justsam]

You did not get what you contracted for, plain and simple. Do not let him try to say a 100 Amp panel is a 100 Amp service. He really blew it by "protecting" the wire with a 100 Amp breaker at the main.

Did he run 4 conductors or only three? Did he provide a local ground, such as ground rods at the subpanel?

 

[mach158]

Old work has nothing to do with the new work. He doesn't owe you anything since you didn't loose anything. He didn't charge you for something he didn't do, he didn't pour concrete, run conduit, etc. It's a little unclear if it was to code when he did the work. Did they change the code in between 2011 and 2013? Inspectors aren't always right either.

The code was correct for the time but the wire size was not correct for the code anyway so I don't see the relevance here?

Also, I am not saying he owes me anything for the concrete. That was just a rant that the conduit was to small and now I have to deal with the concrete versus just simply putting in new conduit. The conduit that is running through my house he does owe me and he did provide the conduit that ran from the buildings panel into the ground 24" below grade that is the wrong size. Had he provided the correct wire, the conduit would have been the right size to begin with.

Since you stated "Inspectors aren't always right either" you tell me what size wire should have been run. I have provided the information you need for the calculations in the previous posts.

 

[mach158]

You did not get what you contracted for, plain and simple. Do not let him try to say a 100 Amp panel is a 100 Amp service. He really blew it by "protecting" the wire with a 100 Amp breaker at the main.

Did he run 4 conductors or only three? Did he provide a local ground, such as ground rods at the subpanel?

He ran 4 conductors from the main panel and then placed 2 ground rods at the subpanel.

 

[mach158]

You want a 100 amp panel but how much electrical load will you have in your new building? Make a list of equipment, lights, etc and post it on here if you can.

The point of a 100 amp capable panel was for future expansion. I don't figure it will fully be used now but in 10-15 years I figure it will.

Their will be the following:

Approx. 10 T5HO lights
240v compressor requiring a 30 amp breaker (assuming I stay the same size)
240v welder (I think requires 50 or 60 amp breaker, not wired yet so haven't checked)
At least 20-30 outlets
2 post lift
table saw
band saw
refrigerator
6 regular bulb lights in lean-to
in tank water heater (livestock tank)
two garage door openers
outside lighting x 6 fixtures possibly 8
heater (electric, no gas on property, house all electric)

That's all I can think of at the moment. Some will be 10 years down the road but most will be now or in the next year or two.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Old work has nothing to do with the new work. He doesn't owe you anything since you didn't loose anything. He didn't charge you for something he didn't do, he didn't pour concrete, run conduit, etc. It's a little unclear if it was to code when he did the work. Did they change the code in between 2011 and 2013? Inspectors aren't always right either.

Huh? What does loosing anything have anything to do with the wrong wire being installed as well as the wrong breaker for that wire being installed. The contract was for 100a capable feeder to the garage. Thats NOT what was installed. So yes he did get charged for something that the EC didnt do!

And NO way was it to code in 2011 to 2013. #4 AL, as i already said, is good for 65a, under T310.15(b)(16) 2011 code. A look at table 310.16 in 2008 has #4 AL rated at the same 65a....

The only thing clear in your comment is that you dont know what youre talking about! No the inspector isnt wrong on this one. Perhaps u should go grab yourself a copy of NEC 310.15(b)(16)....

The point of a 100 amp capable panel was for future expansion. I don't figure it will fully be used now but in 10-15 years I figure it will.

Their will be the following:

Approx. 10 T5HO lights
240v compressor requiring a 30 amp breaker (assuming I stay the same size)
240v welder (I think requires 50 or 60 amp breaker, not wired yet so haven't checked)
At least 20-30 outlets
2 post lift
table saw
band saw
refrigerator
6 regular bulb lights in lean-to
in tank water heater (livestock tank)
two garage door openers
outside lighting x 6 fixtures possibly 8
heater (electric, no gas on property, house all electric)

That's all I can think of at the moment. Some will be 10 years down the road but most will be now or in the next year or two.

With the electric heat compressor and water heater id say 100a would be a miniumum especially if u run the welder too. What kind of welder?

 

[mach158]

[/b]

With the electric heat compressor and water heater id say 100a would be a miniumum especially if u run the welder too. What kind of welder?

Their will be two different welders and they are:

Lincoln Mig 180
Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 (this one requires the larger breaker of 50 amp per the manual)

 

[stage20]

I would say normally trades have a 1 year warranty, but this is not to code nor is it safe. Will be interesting to see the outcome. Was it run in conduit? It may not be large enough to pull new wire through either.......

 

[justsam]

Conduit size is consequential. As a consequence of the licensed professional under sizing the wire, the conduit was like wise undersized. I am assuming here that he advised you what size conduit to place. If he placed the conduit, than clearly that is just a component of the job for which he was paid for to provide a 100AMP service and all that it entails.

At the price of copper today, it will be $1500 to $2000 for material, if he can pull it in existing conduit. If Aluminum is used than clearly conduit will need to be replaced. I would stay away from advising him, only for him to provide the 100Amp service as he was originally contracted to do, following industry standards in terms of voltage drop, capacity, etc.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Maybe I'm wrong (more than likely I am) but if a final was never done, IMO it's still on the original contractor to have it inspected & make any documented issues correct.

Tommy

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Their will be two different welders and they are:

Lincoln Mig 180
Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 (this one requires the larger breaker of 50 amp per the manual)

Both of those are low duty cycle....

 

[mach158]

So I e-mailed the electrician, mainly to document the communication and we used e-mail to communicate prior so I knew this would be a valid communication line.

He called me today and I missed his call and tried to call him back but he did not answer. Anyway his voicemail noted that his records show he installed 2-2-2-4 aluminum and it was rated for that size service for residential and it was up to code.

Now I may have looked at the wrong wire and looked at the only #4 of the group but they all look the same size to me but either way it is my understanding I still need 1/0 wire installed.

I have a call into the county inspector for clarification on if my understanding of the situation is correct before I try contacting the electrician again to make sure my ducks are in a row.

He did note he was willing to work with me in his voicemail to me but we will see what progresses.

I will update when I have further.

 

[mach158]

Both of those are low duty cycle....

Those are hope to purchase welders and I have not decided if those will in fact be the ones installed but even if I go higher it looked like a 60 amp breaker would be the highest I would need unless I went with a TIG but since I don't know how to TIG I doubt I ever purchase one.

 

[sublimate]

2-2-2-4 is allowed for 100A when it serves all the load for a dwelling.
Seems like that wouldn't apply in this case, but code may have been different then?

You may be able to do 90 with the right terminations.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I e-mailed the electrician, mainly to document the communication and we used e-mail to communicate prior so I knew this would be a valid communication line.

He called me today and I missed his call and tried to call him back but he did not answer. Anyway his voicemail noted that his records show he installed 2-2-2-4 aluminum and it was rated for that size service for residential and it was up to code.

Now I may have looked at the wrong wire and looked at the only #4 of the group but they all look the same size to me but either way it is my understanding I still need 1/0 wire installed.

I have a call into the county inspector for clarification on if my understanding of the situation is correct before I try contacting the electrician again to make sure my ducks are in a row.

He did note he was willing to work with me in his voicemail to me but we will see what progresses.

I will update when I have further.

First off can u take a pic of it and post here? We can identify it real quick.

Second, if its #2 AL it should be protected by 90a breaker not 100a.

Regarding the wire size and voltage drop:

I did the calcs and at 230' with #2 AL and full load(90a), your voltage drop would be 13v or 5.5% @ 240v. NEC recommends (but does not require) no more than 5%.

So if u do have #2, its not ideal and the EC should have upsized to compensate for voltage drop but u may be stuck with it.

However, since the wire should be protected at no more than 90a, he violated the part of the contract that said 100a feeder.

 

[mobiledynamics]

So I e-mailed the electrician, mainly to document the communication and we used e-mail to communicate prior so I knew this would be a valid communication line.

He called me today and I missed his call and tried to call him back but he did not answer. Anyway his voicemail noted that his records show he installed 2-2-2-4 aluminum and it was rated for that size service for residential and it was up to code.
.

\

Mach -

I have not read this entire thread but to have the spark call you back, I think you have a decent spark regardless. IMO

 

[mach158]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/mach158/Shop/20150719_153347.jpg

That is the best picture I have at the moment. When I get home tomorrow I can get you a better picture.

 

[engineer031]

So I e-mailed the electrician, mainly to document the communication and we used e-mail to communicate prior so I knew this would be a valid communication line.

He called me today and I missed his call and tried to call him back but he did not answer. Anyway his voicemail noted that his records show he installed 2-2-2-4 aluminum and it was rated for that size service for residential and it was up to code.

Now I may have looked at the wrong wire and looked at the only #4 of the group but they all look the same size to me but either way it is my understanding I still need 1/0 wire installed.

I have a call into the county inspector for clarification on if my understanding of the situation is correct before I try contacting the electrician again to make sure my ducks are in a row.

He did note he was willing to work with me in his voicemail to me but we will see what progresses.

I will update when I have further.

No you do not need 1/0 wire # 2 al is what you need

 

[wyliesdiesels]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/mach158/Shop/20150719_153347.jpg

That is the best picture I have at the moment. When I get home tomorrow I can get you a better picture.

Looks bigger than #4 al. But hard to tell for sure. The white wire looks the same size as the others. Do u know what kind of cable that is? Looks like individual wires. And if thats in 1.25" conduit the conduit fill may be over capacity.

Also, cant tell if the neutral bar on the left is connected to the right neutral bar but if it is and its bonded to the can (judging by the green screw it probably), then u have another problem. Its a 4-wire feeder so the neutral bar should be isolated...I also see no GEC for grounding electrodes....

No you do not need 1/0 wire # 2 al is what you need

Wrong. If its protected by 100a breaker then he needs wire bigger than #2 AL. Also, at 230' voltage drop comes into play. Sure he could use #2 and deal with voltage sag....not ideal or recommended...

 

[engineer031]

Looks bigger than #4 al. But hard to tell for sure. The white wire looks the same size as the others. Do u know what kind of cable that is? Looks like individual wires. And if thats in 1.25" conduit the conduit fill may be over capacity.

Also, cant tell if the neutral bar on the left is connected to the right neutral bar but if it is and its bonded to the can (judging by the green screw it probably), then u have another problem. Its a 4-wire feeder so the neutral bar should be isolated...I also see no GEC for grounding electrodes....



Wrong. If its protected by 100a breaker then he needs wire bigger than #2 AL. Also, at 230' voltage drop comes into play. Sure he could use #2 and deal with voltage sag....not ideal or recommended...

I did not see the length of run as being 230' so yes #1 would be what is needed

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The contract calls for 100a feeder. #2 AL in this application is only good for 90a. So at the vary least the feeder breaker in the main needs to be changed...if the wire is indeed #2...

 

[Mustang51js]

One question I have ,is this going to have its own meter or come off your main panel in the house
Edit, read that it's from panel, wire does look slightly larger than #4, especially the neutral