Electrician installed wrong size wire
- Thread starter mach158
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Mustang51js
Well-known member
Just noticed the bonding bar cut,never seen that done like that before
justsam
Well-known member
Length really does not matter from a COMPLIANCE point of view. The 2 gauge wire is rated for 90 Amps, not 100, regardless of length, and should never be protected by a 100 Amp breaker
Clearly from a RECOMMENDATION point of view, best not to exceed 3% voltage drop.
justsam
Well-known member
Is there a junction box anywhere in the run? The wire at the main panel, ( I am assuming the subpanel feed is in the blue Smurf tube), looks to be 2 gauge. I t just looks smaller at the subpanel.
I expect your electrician is going to attempt to convince you that 90 Amps is close to 100 Amps, and at best he will change out the breaker. Still less than stellar work since you will be looking at almost 6% voltage drop.
I expect your electrician is going to attempt to convince you that 90 Amps is close to 100 Amps, and at best he will change out the breaker. Still less than stellar work since you will be looking at almost 6% voltage drop.
Yes, their is a junction box shortly after leaving the main panel in the house and yes the wire for this subpanel is in the blue tube and the breaker for it is the very bottom right one you see in this picture http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/mach158/Shop/20150714_150350.jpg
Mustang51js
Well-known member
I don't think that connector is made for that blue flex pipe,and not sure if it's legal to use that blue flex for electric,the only time I've ever seen that used is for post lamps
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Noticed that too huh. Yeah i did a double take when i saw that but thought maybe it was just the photo.
Im pretty sure thats not PMI.
Ok so I saved your main panel pic to my phone, did some lightening and touch up to it so i could see the wire better. Something doesnt add up here. It looks like u have a bare COPPER wire in your main panel and 3 black cables(cant tell what type). This doesnt match the wire in your subpanel that has 3 blacks and a white. To me this is looking more and more like HACK work. Why not run one continuous cable?
Now Im curious whats in the j box. He may have spliced scrap pieces together...
Attachments
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Yellow? Looks white in the pic. Neutral should be white
PMI= per manufactuers instructions
Ive never seen neutral bonding bars cut like that.
OK thanks.
Also that wire is yellow in the subpanel, must just be the lighting. Also that yellow wire is the ground wire and is wrapped with green tape. The black wire on the right with the white tape is the neutral or were you talking about something else?
I apologize if you already knew this but I am not sure which you are talking about and this is not my field of expertise.
I was able to get a hold of the electrician and also talked with the County Electrical inspector and here is what they had to say.
First, the inspector. He noted that with the #2 Al that the breaker would need to be 90 amp and with voltage drop I was only looking at 50-60 amps at the panel. The inspector also noted that unless I had a lot of large machines running this would be fine, which is what you guys have mentioned as well but I told him that I assumed when I spec'ed a 100 amp service I would be getting a 100 amp capable service.
The electrician stated the wire is rated for 100 amps and calculating voltage drop is only a recommendation and not a requirement and for that he noted the wire is fine. He noted because it is a residential structure their was no need to up size the wire but had it been a commercial structure the wire would need to be one size larger.
The electrician apparently does not get along with the county inspectors because he noted he has had a problem or two with this county (he is in a different county) and wanted to speak with the electrical inspector so I gave the electrician the inspectors number and the electrician is suppose to contact the inspector either tomorrow or Wednesday. Also the electrician noted that if it comes to it he could just put in a 90 amp breaker and refund me some money and he asked if that would be acceptable. I noted that we will wait and see what the inspector has to say and will progress from there. Let the wait begin.
First, the inspector. He noted that with the #2 Al that the breaker would need to be 90 amp and with voltage drop I was only looking at 50-60 amps at the panel. The inspector also noted that unless I had a lot of large machines running this would be fine, which is what you guys have mentioned as well but I told him that I assumed when I spec'ed a 100 amp service I would be getting a 100 amp capable service.
The electrician stated the wire is rated for 100 amps and calculating voltage drop is only a recommendation and not a requirement and for that he noted the wire is fine. He noted because it is a residential structure their was no need to up size the wire but had it been a commercial structure the wire would need to be one size larger.
The electrician apparently does not get along with the county inspectors because he noted he has had a problem or two with this county (he is in a different county) and wanted to speak with the electrical inspector so I gave the electrician the inspectors number and the electrician is suppose to contact the inspector either tomorrow or Wednesday. Also the electrician noted that if it comes to it he could just put in a 90 amp breaker and refund me some money and he asked if that would be acceptable. I noted that we will wait and see what the inspector has to say and will progress from there. Let the wait begin.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Yes i was talking about the white(or yellow i guess) wire with green tape and the black with white tape.
Obviously the EC doesnt know that #2 AL is only good for 90a in this situation. The code states that the wire is allowed to be breakered at 100a ONLY when supplying the entire load of a DWELLING. Seeing as your garage ISNT a dwelling, its to be breakered at 90a. The inspector already pointed this out and many of us have as well.
As far as residential vs. commercial goes, that has nothing to do with what i said above. And unless the garage is attached to your house, then it cant be counted as residential. But again, that has nothing to do with whether the feeder supplies a dwelling.
This EC doesnt seem to well versed in the NEC!
Seems to me hes having problems because of this!
Yes a maximum amount of voltage drop isnt required. He is right about that. As Ive previously said, a proper install and a good electrician wouldve taken this into account.
As far as the 100a service goes, he didnt provide it.
Did u figure out what gauge wire u have?
As far as the inspector saying u could only have 50a-60a that doesnt make sense. Again because voltage drop is ONLY a RECOMMENDATION in the NEC!
Obviously the EC doesnt know that #2 AL is only good for 90a in this situation. The code states that the wire is allowed to be breakered at 100a ONLY when supplying the entire load of a DWELLING. Seeing as your garage ISNT a dwelling, its to be breakered at 90a. The inspector already pointed this out and many of us have as well.
As far as residential vs. commercial goes, that has nothing to do with what i said above. And unless the garage is attached to your house, then it cant be counted as residential. But again, that has nothing to do with whether the feeder supplies a dwelling.
This EC doesnt seem to well versed in the NEC!
Seems to me hes having problems because of this!
Yes a maximum amount of voltage drop isnt required. He is right about that. As Ive previously said, a proper install and a good electrician wouldve taken this into account.
As far as the 100a service goes, he didnt provide it.
Did u figure out what gauge wire u have?
As far as the inspector saying u could only have 50a-60a that doesnt make sense. Again because voltage drop is ONLY a RECOMMENDATION in the NEC!
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I won't be able to find out until tomorrow. I work 24 hour shifts every third day and I am currently at work today so I will investigate it further when I get home.
I greatly appreciate your help and everyone else's help thus far in this process. I must say I have learned a great deal.
justsam
Well-known member
Which panel are you referring to, the one near the subpanel or near the main panel? Really need to determine the contiguous run of the wire that appears in your subpanel. Are there other junction boxes or pull points along the way on this 320ft run? There may be some wire changes going on there too.
Slowgsr
Well-known member
This is a bit off topic but was the electrician you hired the cheapest quote?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
The length is 230' not 320'...
Nope. U cant have 2 feeds to a detached structure.
Speaking of which, hopefully he used the proper splices to go from cu to al!
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Reality is, OP will likely never exceed 60-70A. It is also like that OP will never get the original electrician to replace. Not recommended, but livable given the reality of not operating near the upper limit.
Slowgsr
Well-known member
Sounds like what he was getting at with the 2 feeds was parallel runs, but you wont be able to do that either in that circumstance.
It's unfortunate you didn't get what you thought you were, the job may have been out of your electricians skill set, or he may have not had the money to buy the proper wire up front? It's tough sometimes. It's just too bad you are left unsatisfied, he may have underbid the job I'm not sure.
I lose work and often get called later to the site for service and it becomes apparant very quickly why I lost the job. You often get what you pay for, not saying this is the case since you only got one quote. Must have been a lot of work in your area.
For the type of job that it was, I won't run anything other then cu teck cable, in that situation, simply for time savings.
Chances are you'll be perfectly fine with what's there. Have him refuse it at 90a, and voltage drop is based on actual load, you'll never draw 90 or 100a, unless you've got a large electric heater out there. If you draw 50 or 60a continuously you'll be fine within the 3%, and even otherwise, if you've got 122-123 at the source, and you get 112-113 at the load it will still operate just fine.
Just be careful who you get your advice from, I notice lots of non licensed diy guys read code books and think they know how things should be done when they have little to no proper practical experience so take it for what it is.
Good luck
It's unfortunate you didn't get what you thought you were, the job may have been out of your electricians skill set, or he may have not had the money to buy the proper wire up front? It's tough sometimes. It's just too bad you are left unsatisfied, he may have underbid the job I'm not sure.
I lose work and often get called later to the site for service and it becomes apparant very quickly why I lost the job. You often get what you pay for, not saying this is the case since you only got one quote. Must have been a lot of work in your area.
For the type of job that it was, I won't run anything other then cu teck cable, in that situation, simply for time savings.
Chances are you'll be perfectly fine with what's there. Have him refuse it at 90a, and voltage drop is based on actual load, you'll never draw 90 or 100a, unless you've got a large electric heater out there. If you draw 50 or 60a continuously you'll be fine within the 3%, and even otherwise, if you've got 122-123 at the source, and you get 112-113 at the load it will still operate just fine.
Just be careful who you get your advice from, I notice lots of non licensed diy guys read code books and think they know how things should be done when they have little to no proper practical experience so take it for what it is.
Good luck
Mustang51js
Well-known member
If I'm not mistaken,don't you need a pull box every 100 feet of pipe
That's a rumor.
Teck is a Canuckistani product, not very common in the States.
engineer031
Well-known member
Like I said I did not see it was 200 ' from the house so that is why it needs to drop to #1. #2 is rated for 100 A but not for this case
Update:
I took some pictures of the setup in the house for you guys to check out and I took the cover off the junction box and snapped a couple pictures there as well. It appears the yellow wire is a #4 Al and the black ones are likely #2 from what I could barely read. I took a picture of both sizes as well.
For some reason whenever I try to upload an attachment it keeps resetting the connection so the pictures can be viewed here http://s30.photobucket.com/user/mach158/library/Shop
I took some pictures of the setup in the house for you guys to check out and I took the cover off the junction box and snapped a couple pictures there as well. It appears the yellow wire is a #4 Al and the black ones are likely #2 from what I could barely read. I took a picture of both sizes as well.
For some reason whenever I try to upload an attachment it keeps resetting the connection so the pictures can be viewed here http://s30.photobucket.com/user/mach158/library/Shop
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Your pictures are too big, but you could have done it with the image option (the button that looks like a mountain) and the actual image (right click on the image in in Photobucket and the left click on the "Copy image URL).
Seems odd to me that he used a splice box next to the main panel.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Man thats some sloppy work. Yellow for the EGC? Did he run out of green tape?
If it is indeed #2 then your breaker needs to be changed to 90a...
If it is indeed #2 then your breaker needs to be changed to 90a...
What is the difference between a splice box and junction box? Sorry if this is an obvious question, just never heard the term splice box before.
Also it almost appears that the wire from the breaker to this splice box may be #4 or at least it appears smaller but maybe it is just because it has a different coating? The coating seems like a smoother shiny coating.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
No difference other than terminology.
What the wizard was getting at is why did the EC put any kind of junction at all by the panel or anywhere in the run for that matter? Its more work doing it this way vs. running continous wires...
As far as size goes, it should be printed on the jacket. U need to look for it. It should say AWG 2 or AWG 4 along with the insulation type such as XHHW etc
What the wizard was getting at is why did the EC put any kind of junction at all by the panel or anywhere in the run for that matter? Its more work doing it this way vs. running continous wires...
As far as size goes, it should be printed on the jacket. U need to look for it. It should say AWG 2 or AWG 4 along with the insulation type such as XHHW etc
No markings on the wire coming from the main panel in the box and I don't recall seeing anything I could read in the main panel that went to the box but might be a matter of less insulation on the wire but again that is above my knowledge. I'll pull the cover off and have another look.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
There is writting on the wire. In the pics wizard posted i see its made by Encore wire corp. there should be a gauge # at the end of that sequence of writting
Smurf tube, wow.
Its UL listed so its fine but in my area most electricians see it as inferior to most any other method. I wouldn't use it for anything but maybe comm wires.
justsam
Well-known member
Sounds like the EC did not want to deal with the heavy 2gauge going into the main panel, so he put in a splice box and fed it with 4gauge. So now you have a 100Amp breaker looking into 4 gauge AL. I think it is time to call the EC out and have a discussion with him about what constitutes a 100 Amp feed to a subpanel.
The 4gauge wire is good for 65Amps. It may become a fuse before your 100Amp breaker opens.
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