"Electricians" behaving badly - fixing a 400A service

[wssix99]

The Mrs. and I just failed our final electrical inspection due to an issue in our 400A panel. I'd like some expert advice to make sure I'm on the right path for the fix.

The background: Our electrician had some internal issues during our house build and lost money on the deal. He checked out, send us a bunch of helpers (after we passed our rough inspection) to do the final work and they jacked it all up. I ended up ripping out and re-doing around $4000 worth of work and finishing some of the more complex pieces that they couldn't figure out. (Basic stuff - 20A outlets on 15A circuits, missing GFCI's, circuits that couldn't have arc fault breakers installed because... they were arcing...)

I went through everything with a fine tooth comb and thought I fixed everything. The electrical inspector was pleased, until he opened the panel and found a BIG issue that the first inspector missed during the rough inspection.

Our 400A main panel was installed upside down. (The exact reasons are lost to history and my wife's memory, but it happened.)

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In that exercise, the main 400A breaker was also installed upside down so "On" is down and "Off" is up. (Not to code.)

The 750 kcmil aluminum wires coming in from the meter were also too big for the main breaker's lugs, so the jackasses trimmed the outer strands of the conductor off so they would fit in the lug.

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^ I still need to do the math on this, but would guess that this wire can only safely carry around 300A in this condition!


The inspector is pissed. I am pissed. My wife is not pissed enough. (So, I'm going to do other things to make her more pissed - but that will be the topic of other threads.) The inspector wants the electrician present at the next inspection, but the guy won't return our calls. So, while we decide to let the building department suspend his license (and halt our project), or hire a lawyer, or change our electrician on our permit (and pay someone else to fix this), or enact some other type of unproductive but self-serving revenge: I am working to find the solution to these two problems:


The main breaker is a GE TJD unit (picture rotated for convenience):

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From what I understand from the breaker instructions and drawings, the breaker should be able to be removed, and the lugs/buss attachments reversed so the breaker can be flipped (so "On" is up and "Off" is down) and we can get larger lugs to properly fit the 750 kcmil wire. (I found those today and have them on order and the install instructions are here - http://apps.geindustrial.com/publib...struction|GEH-3035|PDF&filename=GEH-3035G.pdf.)


Does this sound OK? If I flip the main breaker and get the proper lugs on the thing so the conductors are properly/fully engaged, does anyone see any other concerns?

I'm not familiar with these large industrial breakers. Does it matter which way electricity flows through them? Can they be flipped/reversed? (I assume so, since they appear to be engineered to allow it.)

 

[LXCam]

Yes the breaker can be flipped. Make sure the dead front doesn't have on/off embossed into the metal. As for lugs, if you don't get lucky on finding a suitable lug, you can get high press crimp reducers. Man, what a sloppy job, good luck to you.

 

[wssix99]

If anyone is curious, we have all of our 240V breakers and one 120V HVAC breaker mounted in the 400A panel and then have a separate 200A sub-panel for all of our 120V house circuits.

When I get free this weekend, I'm going to double check the aluminum wires connecting the panels and confirm that they can handle the loads and that no other short cuts were made with other lugs. (I don't think that happened - I believe the reason these short cuts were made on the 400A panel is because I got stiffed with a used/2nd hand panel and these were the lugs that came on the thing.)

 

[wssix99]

Yes the breaker can be flipped. Make sure the dead front doesn't have on/off embossed into the metal. As for lugs, if you don't get lucky on finding a suitable lug, you can get high press crimp reducers. Man, what a sloppy job, good luck to you.

Thanks!

I was able to find the proper lugs fairly easily. Fortunately, the on/off is also molded in to the breaker and the panel is plain. (not stamped)

 

[Aceman]

In general, most panels can be flipped, but there are some made to go only one direction. I don't use GE so I'm not familiar with their practices, but the first thing I'd do is find the dead front and panel cover and see if there are any instructions for flipping the panel. Also, when I flip panels I will hold up the deadfront/cover, even temporarily mounting them if need be just to make sure everything lines up. Breaker holes, screw holes, etc. Also paying attention to the writing to make sure everything isn't upside down at this point.

Secondly, most mains are designed to be flipped just like you've discovered. Unbolt the lugs on both sides of the breaker, flip it over and reattach.

Third, I would open the panel/meter/disconnect, whatever is on the other side of the wall that those 750's terminate into at the other end. Verify the wire size and quantity at those lugs. After you know that then it's a simple matter of using the right wire. I'm guessing you'll end up pulling the 750's out and replacing with 500 CU thhn(as long as your calculated load is under 380 amps) or parallel 3/0 CU thhn.

Fourth, if this is the main panel(service disconnect) you'll also need to verify your grounding/bonding is done correctly.

 

[rockwithjason]

is there a reason you cant flip the guts of the panel? most of these use guts that bolt in as a unit and you can pull them out and turn them around. the cans are generally good to use either way. you will have to extend the wire anyway as you are too short to make the correct bending radius. you can splice on the needed wire with a crimp splice or bolted pressure splice, then you can use a crimp on pin connector to your existing lugs. check out the ilsco catalog online for examples.

in order to be flipped the breaker needs to say "suitable for reverse feed" on the label or it will be a no go.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

I'm no lawyer, But I can see the first electricians bonding company paying for these screw ups....

Good luck, I feel for you.

 

[wssix99]

I'm no lawyer, But I can see the first electricians bonding company paying for these screw ups....

Good luck, I feel for you.

Bonds cost extra, so we don't have one. Typically, only large commercial jobs would be covered by those. In the end, I think the cost of fixing this is going to be less working with a bond company or going to court...

 

[nadogail]

I can imagine that the electrician's license might be in jeopardy if this job does not get resolved.

His contractors license, his state license, his bond, and the Better Business Bureau all come to mind.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Bonds cost extra, so we don't have one. Typically, only large commercial jobs would be covered by those. In the end, I think the cost of fixing this is going to be less working with a bond company or going to court...

I'm pretty sure HE has a bonding or insurance for something like this. Sort of like a garage owner having garage owners insurance. I know the company I was working for on a job over in Goldsboro,NC went out of business not long after I and a few others left and his bonding company had to pay to finish the jobs over there.

 

[wssix99]

is there a reason you cant flip the guts of the panel? most of these use guts that bolt in as a unit and you can pull them out and turn them around. the cans are generally good to use either way. you will have to extend the wire anyway as you are too short to make the correct bending radius. you can splice on the needed wire with a crimp splice or bolted pressure splice, then you can use a crimp on pin connector to your existing lugs. check out the ilsco catalog online for examples.

Thanks. We could flip the guts, but that would be more expensive. Some of the circuits would have to be re-pulled as the breakers move down in space and we'd need new/longer service wires.

I'm not hopeful that this electrician is going to show up to do the work and I'm worried that if they do and we press them to take on heavy expenses - they will just half-*** more things.

Fighting here is also very expensive for us. Not in terms of dollars - but in terms of time and financing. We need this deal done, so we can get our final - so we can close out our construction loan - so we can get our final financing for the house. A delay of a month or so can cost us tens of thousands of dollars in interest fees over the life of the final mortgage, now that interest rates are going up.

in order to be flipped the breaker needs to say "suitable for reverse feed" on the label or it will be a no go.

Thanks! I guess this is what I was looking for? GE's specs say that it is a "Reverse Feed" breaker.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Get him a job app for the butcher shop at your local grocery store and give it to him the next time you see him,Thats where he should be doing work like that.

 

[wssix99]

I'm guessing you'll end up pulling the 750's out and replacing with 500 CU thhn(as long as your calculated load is under 380 amps) or parallel 3/0 CU thhn.

We thought we'd need to go to copper, until I found the proper breaker lugs for the 750 Aluminum wire. Those should arrive in the mail tomorrow. (All I need now is an electrician...)

Fourth, if this is the main panel(service disconnect) you'll also need to verify your grounding/bonding is done correctly.

This is definitely on the menu for this weekend and also on the inspectors list of things to do. (He was at the end of his day, saw this, and said that he wanted the Electrician front-and-center when he came back.)


We also need to look at the lugs at the service disconnect. When I've seen people open these things, they have special gloves on, etc.

Are there any worries if I cut the seal and open the cover myself? Do I need to take any safety precautions? (I've never opened one of these up before.)

 

[Falcon67]

Not a 'spert but have opened meter cans before. Would call the Poco and tell them I was opening the can for inspection purposes, would they please come re-tag it next time by. You'll have to get past front line "would you like to pay your bill" and get to engineering most likely.

Insulated gloves, rubber soled shoes, dry ground/pavement and a backup person nearby with a cell phone and maybe a fiberglass pole to pull you off. Removing the cover is benigh, it's when you start yanking on things like a meter or semi-knowledgeable poking with a screwdriver that it gets dicey LOL.

We had meter issues on this house, the poco (Co-op power) actually came out, cut the feed and fixed all the meter/panel connection issues including driving in two ground rods. Summer helper got that job.

 

[reader2580]

My electric co-op now charges a $125 fee if you cut the meter tag without calling first. I believe they also require a contractor and won't let a homeowner touch it. I pulled the meter myself to fix issues with the panel in the past, but apparently not allowed now.

The power company did unscrew the meter box from the house to re-side and they came out and screwed it back on once the siding company was done.

 

[rockwithjason]

wssix99; Thanks. We could flip the guts, but that would be more expensive. Some of the circuits would have to be re-pulled as the breakers move down in space and we'd need new/longer service wires.

you can spliced these in the panel and extend them as needed. in the end you will have a less cobbled installation and you won't have the listing violations to deal with

Thanks! I guess this is what I was looking for? GE's specs say that it is a "Reverse Feed" breaker.

yup it will be ok reverse fed but you are still in violation of the equipment listing. if the inspector will let is slide you will be ok but seeing as the on/off letters are stamped in the dead front i am not hopeful

 

[Beemer533]

Thanks! I guess this is what I was looking for? GE's specs say that it is a "Reverse Feed" breaker.

The label on the breaker you posted seems to indicate that it can't be flipped..

 

[wssix99]

you can spliced these in the panel and extend them as needed. in the end you will have a less cobbled installation and you won't have the listing violations to deal with

I didn't think this met code. Or are splices different from "connections"?

Either way, I couldn't find any prohibitions from GE on how the box is mounted. The only issue I've found is the On/Off - Up/Down complication. Since the On/Off labels are molded in to the breaker and not the panel, those labels will flip with the breaker.

 

[willy (traer)]

You got enough entrance feed to cut off where he gave the wire a 'haircut' to make it fit in the lugs?

 

[wssix99]

The label on the breaker you posted seems to indicate that it can't be flipped..

Wow. Missed that one...


This is odd. GE's materials call the TJD out as reversible: (and the physical design allows for it) http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/GET-2779?TNR=Application and Technical|GET-2779|PDF&filename=GET-2779K v6.pdf#page=7

^ I wonder if that warning refers to the model numbers below the warning? That whole label is like one giant rolling sentence from hell. It's impossible to tell which rows belong together.

 

[Norcal]

The breaker appears to be reverse fed as it is now.

 

[Beemer533]

The picture I used was rotated so the breaker is actually upside down in the panel. I don't think it is being reverse fed as I understand it...

 

[theoldwizard1]

The inspector is pissed. I am pissed. My wife is not pissed enough. (So, I'm going to do other things to make her more pissed - but that will be the topic of other threads.) The inspector wants the electrician present at the next inspection, but the guy won't return our calls. So, while we decide to let the building department suspend his license (and halt our project), or hire a lawyer, or change our electrician on our permit (and pay someone else to fix this), ...

Start looking for a lawyer. The electrician needs a nasty-gram (sent via certified mail). Contact the inspector and see if you can get him to write down EXACTLY what needs to be remedied in order to pass. (IANALE, but I would want the box removed, installed right side up. You need to work this out with the inspector,)

If the inspector INSISTS on a face-to-face meeting, you need to get a specific list of actions the INSPECTOR IS GOING TO TAKE to make sure this happens in a "timely manner".

 

[wssix99]

The label on the breaker you posted seems to indicate that it can't be flipped..

I just called GE Support. They said that as long as the lugs aren't labeled line and load and since the breaker doesn't have an interchangeable core, then it should be reversible, but...

I told him about this label and he said then I should back off. This label doesn't match the literature and it doesn't match the current part numbers being sold - so maybe this is an old label. Regardless, GE support recommended that I not reverse feed it due to the label.

^ It would be great if I could find a confident explanation for this....

 

[Beemer533]

That *****.. But you'll likely still have issues with the inspector if you flip it with that label.. Can you buy a breaker for the panel that GE lists as reversible?

This post edited by the NSA

 

[wssix99]

That *****.. But you'll likely still have issues with the inspector if you flip it with that label.. Can you buy a breaker for the panel that GE lists as reversible?

This post edited by the NSA

Yea. I should be able to get a modern version of the exact same breaker and be kosher. One thing I've learned in this project - there is NO problem that a big pile of more money can't solve!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Which code cycle are u on?

Table 310.15(b)(7) which is no longer in the NEC for 2014, allows 600KCMIL AL for 400a dwelling services. Does this main panel only serve ypur residence?

Also, while hard to definitively tell, it looks like youre missing the GEC for the grounding electrodes and the water line bond.

Usually is a bare solid #6 for rods and #4 for water line.

 

[wssix99]

(IANALE, but I would want the box removed, installed right side up.

I'm pretty sure now, after reading everything, that this particular box is intended to be mounted either way. The breakers are typically reversible (except the particular vintage I got stuck with) and the box is completely reversible - no stampings anywhere on the box or cover panels. The insides are also symmetrical and can be flipped without issue. The way this shutoff breaker sits, its at a great height and easy to get leverage on if I ever need to shut it off. (I just need to flip it...)

Contact the inspector and see if you can get him to write down EXACTLY what needs to be remedied in order to pass.

It doesn't work like that in the City.

If the inspector INSISTS on a face-to-face meeting, you need to get a specific list of actions the INSPECTOR IS GOING TO TAKE to make sure this happens in a "timely manner".

It doesn't work like that in the City.

Start looking for a lawyer.

This means time, which could cost me tens of thousands of dollars (which I can't sue for) if interest rates go up. Paying a few bucks (And... ugh... $700 for a new main breaker and lugs looks like my path of least resistance.)

^ BTW - When the next person on this board complains about the expense of a 400A panel upgrade, I know have a complete accounting of the thing...

 

[jd_1138]

I can imagine that the electrician's license might be in jeopardy if this job does not get resolved.

His contractors license, his state license, his bond, and the Better Business Bureau all come to mind.

He sounds like a hack. I am surprised he hasn't had his credentials yanked on earlier hacked jobs. Unless he used to do decent work but decided to F up on your house.

My mom's neighbor hired an electrician friend of his to wire up a new house build (her neighbor bought the lot and built the house himself), and the guy was showing up smelling of alcohol. He finally had to hire a pro to come in and clean up the clusterf__k. The new guy was professional and was able to clean it up to pass code. I hired him to do some stuff at my mother's house. He's still her electrician.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . . at least get a competent electrician to give you detailed quote to CURE the problems that previous "electrician" did to your wiring/panel.

That way, along with lots of pictures, you can document damage done and win in court later.

Agree to not let that hack touch it anymore and move on with qualified help. Good luck.

 

[Cmreschke]

As far as having the inspector write exactly what needs to be remedied, yes it does happen in the city. That's his job. If you can't get a list of violations from him you will never know what needs to be fixed and or you won't know what the violations are and what can and can't be verified without a list of article numbers and violations. If your city inspector won't or can't write this stuff down then he has no backing from the state enforcement.

It's like paying a fine for a ticket and not actually getting a ticket but your just taking the cops word for it that it was an infraction.

 

[jeffmoss26]

Yikes.

 

[Norcal]

How long are the conductors to the other panel and from the meter? If you stay with AL conductors it may be fairly easy to flip the panel interior & replace those conductors, the smaller conductors are coming in at the lower left, so they would not be a issue,The idea might be cheaper then a new main breaker.

 

[Cmreschke]

^^^^^this!

 

[wssix99]

How long are the conductors to the other panel and from the meter? If you stay with AL conductors it may be fairly easy to flip the panel interior & replace those conductors, the smaller conductors are coming in at the lower left, so they would not be a issue,The idea might be cheaper then a new main breaker.

The meter is immediately on the other side of the wall, so the conductors would need to be replaced for a flip. New conductors would be less expensive than a new breaker, but... this panel is used and my breaker is 25 years old (it looks like) so my wife and I may be inclined to spring for a new breaker, anyway, which would allow us to reverse feed it. (We do like the flipped arrangement of the breakers do to their height off the floor.) This is the house we are going to retire in and we don't want this breaker failing on us down the road and shutting down the whole house for days on end...

 

[wssix99]

As far as having the inspector write exactly what needs to be remedied, yes it does happen in the city.

It doesn't matter. Even if we fix everything that they want, if they are having a bad day when they come back, they will make something else up...

I am very happy that the inspector caught this issue, though. We have failed other inspections due to the inspectors not understanding the code, having a bad day, misreading the plans, etc. - but this problem could have ended up badly down the road.

 

[wssix99]

He sounds like a hack. I am surprised he hasn't had his credentials yanked on earlier hacked jobs. Unless he used to do decent work but decided to F up on your house.

The latter is what happened. It's a family business and our job fell in the middle of a family feud. The business lost some family members during the job (who were the competent electricians) and they sent in a bunch of rented hacks to do the work.

There was a lot of rework, they failed to show up on time, complete the full scope... (the usual stuff) and we parted ways. I thought I just had $1-2K of finish work to do myself when we did that - and then we uncovered another $1-2 of additional problems/rework as we went through things. ...And now this.

Fortunately, my wife is a GC and has relationships with other competent electricians to come in and complete the work. If we were not in this position, we'd really be screwed - I imagine most people wouldn't touch an in-progress job like this before the final inspection is done. (We'll also have to transfer the permit to a new company.)

 

[lewis26]

OP, I am originally from Chicago and can recommend a very good electrician if needed (he's suburbs based).

He wired the my parents basement finishing, and will be wiring my sister and brother in laws new house.

PM me if you want.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

As far as having the inspector write exactly what needs to be remedied, yes it does happen in the city. That's his job. If you can't get a list of violations from him you will never know what needs to be fixed and or you won't know what the violations are and what can and can't be verified without a list of article numbers and violations. If your city inspector won't or can't write this stuff down then he has no backing from the state enforcement.

It's like paying a fine for a ticket and not actually getting a ticket but your just taking the cops word for it that it was an infraction.

Red tag should have the violations written on it.

 

[Falcon67]

It doesn't matter. Even if we fix everything that they want, if they are having a bad day when they come back, they will make something else up...

This. As I recall, last building my work built we took 3 shorts at a COO. The last one, the inspector was grumping something about landscaping, grass or something. While moving trucks were idling in the parking lot and a deadline for classes was looming. Some calls by VIPs were made to other VIPs at the City. The inspectors phone rang, he signed off the COO got in the truck and left. You really can't tell the inspector what, but if you get his boss's **** in a vice then things can move along smartly.

And no, they are not all like that thankfully.