Yea. We've got some of that going on with other inspectors. This inspector didn't even look at our subpanel because he was on OT, it was at the end of the day, and he was pissed about the main breaker - so he just took off and said that the next time he came back he would: look at the rest, expect that this problem would be fixed, expect that the electrician will be physically present and on their knees...
"Electricians" behaving badly - fixing a 400A service
- Thread starter wssix99
- Start date
Yea. We've got some of that going on with other inspectors. This inspector didn't even look at our subpanel because he was on OT, it was at the end of the day, and he was pissed about the main breaker - so he just took off and said that the next time he came back he would: look at the rest, expect that this problem would be fixed, expect that the electrician will be physically present and on their knees...
Cmreschke
Well-known member
That's fine and dandy except I hope he doesn't plan on billing you for reinspection fees if he didn't feel the need to inspect the whole job the first time he was out there. I know the fees may seem trivial compared to the costs of what your going thru, but the time factor increases to an already looming deadline. If he reinspects the rest and finds more violations and has to come back yet again, how long is his leed time going to be to get back out there? Another week? And you have to pay him again and again?
Fishplate
Well-known member
Yep. Assuming your service is hot:
When you open the clamp to release the meter, it puts a shunt across the socket so it doesn't arc if there's a load. If you don't put the clamp handle back when you have the meter out, you will go in and grab a lug in the panel and, after a few seconds, you will wonder where all that tingling came from.
And yes, call them first and tell them what you're doing. Our EMC just told me (once they figured out that I was the homeowner doing it myself, which is legal here) to call when I was done and they'd re-seal it.
Yep. Assuming your service is hot:
When you open the clamp to release the meter, it puts a shunt across the socket so it doesn't arc if there's a load. If you don't put the clamp handle back when you have the meter out, you will go in and grab a lug in the panel and, after a few seconds, you will wonder where all that tingling came from.
I'm not going to do the work myself or actually pull the meter. (I'm allergic to unlimited amperage coursing through my delicate fingers.) I'll hire an electrician to do the work and figure that going in cold on something like this is a bad way to learn... My intent in opening the cover of the meter is just to look at the lugs and confirm if they are the proper size and if the conductors were violated at those ends, as well.
It doesn't work like that in the City.
The PoCo doesn't actually make service calls or even hook up the services when you call them here. (I'm in a good neighborhood - it's near impossible to build in some of the other neighborhoods...) You have to "know people" to get things done. Even if they need to access the meter, they won't come on to people's property around here for fear of getting shot. So, if they really need to access the property or we really need them on the property, we make "special arrangements" or flag down a truck going by. (If you flag down a PoCo truck here and tell them that something needs to be fixed/done, they are usually happy to help if they have an ******. That's how we got some service lines protected/covered when we had to put some scaffolding around them - after waiting over two months on a service call.)
^ It's a messed up world we live in... (But I've got a great view of it!)
larry4406
Well-known member
Whoever jerks the meter, make sure the main breaker is shut off first.
SALIV8
Well-known member
ws6 what part of shitcago is this in?
I may be able to help.
I may be able to help.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Chicago....home of some of the most liberal laws in the nation...and strongest unions....and someone fucks up your electrical....and you can't get restitution?.....
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I'm not going to do the work myself or actually pull the meter. (I'm allergic to unlimited amperage coursing through my delicate fingers.) I'll hire an electrician to do the work and figure that going in cold on something like this is a bad way to learn... My intent in opening the cover of the meter is just to look at the lugs and confirm if they are the proper size and if the conductors were violated at those ends, as well.
It doesn't work like that in the City.
The PoCo doesn't actually make service calls or even hook up the services when you call them here. (I'm in a good neighborhood - it's near impossible to build in some of the other neighborhoods...) You have to "know people" to get things done. Even if they need to access the meter, they won't come on to people's property around here for fear of getting shot. So, if they really need to access the property or we really need them on the property, we make "special arrangements" or flag down a truck going by. (If you flag down a PoCo truck here and tell them that something needs to be fixed/done, they are usually happy to help if they have an ******. That's how we got some service lines protected/covered when we had to put some scaffolding around them - after waiting over two months on a service call.)
^ It's a messed up world we live in... (But I've got a great view of it!)
Wow thats insane.
While I knew the gun laws were f*cked up there, had no idea the PoCos were that uptight and unfriendly and f*cked up as well.
Out here if we have an issue with our service, we can call 24Hrs a day and ask for a troubleshooter. The tech comes out in 30 mins or so. Need a service changed or hooked up? Schedule it and it takes a week or so.
Man glad i dont live in chicagoland.
Wirepuller
Banned
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2014
- Messages
- 305
Check your states guidelines. In MA it's 3 business days. Then we can move on. I've done it only once and the inspector didn't mind. He can't hold a job up. Time is money.
SALIV8
Well-known member
Gun laws are not fucked up here anymore. The constitution finally made it's way to shitcago last year.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Detroit Edison will not work in some areas on the City after dark. In winter, they start packing up around 3PM.
They will often request Police back up because thefts off the truck when they are in someones back yard are so high, even in broad daylight.
Beemer533
Well-known member
Having worked on several towers in downtown Detroit, I can believe it.. We had 3 guys and we usually had one just keeping an eye out instead of working. Not fun..
I can get whatever I want. Restitution is an expensive thing to have, no matter where you are. Even if I went to court and prevailed, that would take a lot of time. Time that will cost me tens of thousands of dollars in future financing of the project. (Because interest rates will go up while this delays the close-out of my construction loan.)
I want the least expensive way out that keeps us safe and happy long term.
This is true, but guns and gun laws have never been an issue. Killing people has always been against the law and those laws haven't changed.
^ Those are the laws that are the problem. You can shoot someone here and be out of jail in 5-10 years with bad behavior.
The criminals here are really sophisticated. They look up the building permits and then ride bikes through the neighborhoods. They will ****** tools while still on the bike and not even stop - impossible to catch.
Thanks everyone for your advice, expertise and opinions.
The wife looked at the panel and has spoken...
We really like the positioning of the breakers with the panel inverted. (We are tall and putting the panel right-side-up would bring them down to belly button level.) The inverted panel also puts the main breaker low where we can get comfortable leverage on it if we ever need to throw it.
So, to solve the main breaker problem, we'll get a new proper reverse feed version of this breaker. Given the cost and inconvenience of what a service call would be to deal with a problem if we have a problem with a used breaker, etc. we're comfortable getting a new breaker. We also expect that the labor we'll save (and or grief we'll have to deal with when we track down the original electrician) will help outweigh the cost of the breaker.
I still need to check the other lugs and the types of wires in the panel this weekend to make sure there aren't any other lingering problems...
The wife looked at the panel and has spoken...
We really like the positioning of the breakers with the panel inverted. (We are tall and putting the panel right-side-up would bring them down to belly button level.) The inverted panel also puts the main breaker low where we can get comfortable leverage on it if we ever need to throw it.
So, to solve the main breaker problem, we'll get a new proper reverse feed version of this breaker. Given the cost and inconvenience of what a service call would be to deal with a problem if we have a problem with a used breaker, etc. we're comfortable getting a new breaker. We also expect that the labor we'll save (and or grief we'll have to deal with when we track down the original electrician) will help outweigh the cost of the breaker.
I still need to check the other lugs and the types of wires in the panel this weekend to make sure there aren't any other lingering problems...
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I think you made the right decision from a cost and risk standpoint. Pay the "stupid tax" and move on.
I'll add this, shop the hell out of the breaker. Call in some favors if you have contacts in the industry. Spend a night with Google, eBay, etc. GE in particular has some whack'o pricing. Larger single breaker prices can be stupid, I've bought entire distribution panels just to take the main breaker out of it and then thrown the rest of the panel away - it was cheaper than buying just the single breaker.
In your case, you might be further ahead to just toss the entire old panel and buy a new one that's configured the same with the right breaker arrangement if you can come out ahead on the labor. Do your homework, which it sounds like you know how to do.
Final piece of free advise, move out of Chicago after this project is done.....
I'll add this, shop the hell out of the breaker. Call in some favors if you have contacts in the industry. Spend a night with Google, eBay, etc. GE in particular has some whack'o pricing. Larger single breaker prices can be stupid, I've bought entire distribution panels just to take the main breaker out of it and then thrown the rest of the panel away - it was cheaper than buying just the single breaker.
In your case, you might be further ahead to just toss the entire old panel and buy a new one that's configured the same with the right breaker arrangement if you can come out ahead on the labor. Do your homework, which it sounds like you know how to do.
Final piece of free advise, move out of Chicago after this project is done.....
Well, I thought I'd check back with another episode of this man-soap opera...
A well timed 10% off sale from the nice folks at Pacific Coast Breaker softened the blow of the new breaker purchase, so I have the new reverse feed unit ready to go with the proper lugs.
We also tracked down the competent electrician, who had left the company as our panel was being put together. Evidently, they have patched things up and he's back. So, he'll be coming out to fix everything (under my watch) and will be interacting directly with the inspector.
I also did not pull the meter and will let them deal with that when they come. I'm confident the lugs there should be good as all the other lugs are good and the outside service was new. (I think the problem that set things off inside was that the panel we were "given" was used and had copper lugs that didn't match up with the AL wire on-hand.)
^ Thanks for these notes. I checked the bonding and it is... not good.
I actually think this is what caused the inspector to open the panels - the rough inspection noted that one of our panels was not bonded correctly.
The water lines in the house look good to me. They are bonded to the panel with a 1/0 copper wire and a proper pipe clamp where the service comes in the house. The panel bonds are a different story:
- The main 400A panel is bonded with a #4 wire to the outdoor ground rod
- The subpanel has this same #4 wire connected to the electrical ground, but the box is not physically bonded to it
- The #4 wire going to the ground rod is attached to the rod with a pipe clamp and not a proper ground rod clamp
A well timed 10% off sale from the nice folks at Pacific Coast Breaker softened the blow of the new breaker purchase, so I have the new reverse feed unit ready to go with the proper lugs.
We also tracked down the competent electrician, who had left the company as our panel was being put together. Evidently, they have patched things up and he's back. So, he'll be coming out to fix everything (under my watch) and will be interacting directly with the inspector.
I also did not pull the meter and will let them deal with that when they come. I'm confident the lugs there should be good as all the other lugs are good and the outside service was new. (I think the problem that set things off inside was that the panel we were "given" was used and had copper lugs that didn't match up with the AL wire on-hand.)
^ Thanks for these notes. I checked the bonding and it is... not good.
I actually think this is what caused the inspector to open the panels - the rough inspection noted that one of our panels was not bonded correctly.
The water lines in the house look good to me. They are bonded to the panel with a 1/0 copper wire and a proper pipe clamp where the service comes in the house. The panel bonds are a different story:
- The main 400A panel is bonded with a #4 wire to the outdoor ground rod
- The subpanel has this same #4 wire connected to the electrical ground, but the box is not physically bonded to it
- The #4 wire going to the ground rod is attached to the rod with a pipe clamp and not a proper ground rod clamp
The questions:
- I assume that an undersized #4 wire going to the ground rod isn't kosher, even though the interior plumbing is properly grounded? (It looks to me that someone picked the appropriate wire for my 200A sub panel, ran that through the 400A panel and out to the ground rod.
My understanding of code is that a #4 wire could be used to bond the 200A subpanel to the 400A main panel and then the main panel should be bonded to the outdoor grounding rod with a 1/0 wire. Is that correct?
If using a pipe clamp on the grounding rod is acceptable vs. a proper ground rod lug, I don't like it...
Last edited:
# 4 is fine and a pipe clamp is not acceptable
Sorry, I had a typo above, which I've corrected. I should have said:
"My understanding of code is that a #4 wire could be used to bo nd the 200A subpanel to the 400A main panel and then the main panel should be bonded to the outdoor grounding rod with a 1/0 wire. Is that correct?"
My read of code is that the bonding wire going to the grounding rod should be sized off the max service, which would be 400A here. Is there something that would allow a smaller bonding wire given the bonding to the houses piping system? (I thought that was no longer able to count, electrically?)
Cmreschke
Well-known member
Need an acorn for your rod. And #4 is actually overkill for a ground rod. You will only ever need a #6 to a rod on a service.
Cmreschke
Well-known member
Code specifies that #6 is largest required conductor for ground rods. It doesn't matter the service size.
Thanks, I see that in the code now.
I see that my plumbing does need the larger 1/0 ground wire. I assume this is because the bond to the plumbing system protects against a full-on electrical short and the bond to the ground rod is just dealing with smaller potentials between earth and the electrical ground?
Well... The PoCo showed up unannounced today (leaving muddy tracks on my porch) and installed my "smart" meter.
View media item 61349
The associated migraines have already started and I think I hear voices talking to me. Should I break out the space blankets and tin foil hats?
http://stopsmartmeters.org/how-you-can-stop-smart-meters/
View media item 61349
The associated migraines have already started and I think I hear voices talking to me.
Should I break out the space blankets and tin foil hats?http://stopsmartmeters.org/how-you-can-stop-smart-meters/
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
The primary purpose of rods is for grounding lightning.
There should be no potential between earth and ground. They should be at the same potential.
Beemer533
Well-known member
Well... The PoCo showed up unannounced today (leaving muddy tracks on my porch) and installed my "smart" meter.
The associated migraines have already started and I think I hear voices talking to me.
http://stopsmartmeters.org/how-you-can-stop-smart-meters/
I really don't get the whole smart meter conspiracy thing...
But, just to be safe you should get rid of all cell phones, WiFi, microwave and baby monitors..
I worked on a job where the owner had a sign on the meter panel "No Smart Meters Here!" and she had some sort of fine wire mesh installed under all the drywall in the Master Bedroom to ward off radio waves. None in her kids bedrooms though.
Over my cold, dead body! I'm served by a rural electric co-op and I have nothing but excellent things to say about them. They're very progressive and customer-oriented. We were one of the first systems in IL to adopt smart meters.
BD1
Well-known member
Just read this and man I'm so sorry for what you guys went through. So sad of the incompetent people out there doing shlty work. Well hopefully this will be the end of all your issues.
As for the smart meter there are many out there now. Lake County Illinois is scheduled for their next target install. Many people have added padlocks where the meter seal is and some expanded metal around meter pedestal. we'll see what happens next.
As for the smart meter there are many out there now. Lake County Illinois is scheduled for their next target install. Many people have added padlocks where the meter seal is and some expanded metal around meter pedestal. we'll see what happens next.
I expected this with a new, custom house. It was a good thing I saved up some vacation and was on-site during the concrete column pours as rebar was off and in the wrong place and the house could have fallen down.
The thing is too big for me to build myself, so I had to have "help." The next 10 years of my life will be ripping out everything and re-doing it properly. (Mostly carpentry, drywall, and other finishes.) This I expected, but I did not expect the electrical to be so bad. Thankfully, the plumbing was stellar!
There are plenty of people in the world who will believe the most cockamamy conspiracy theories that can be refuted with just the tiniest bit of research.
But they still have to test it for themselves when they come to a sign that says "Wet Paint. Do Not Touch!"
Edit: Hoh-lee-****. I just went to that website; wow. talk about some wackos. I mean, the whole nine yards; bizarre, unverifiable claims, much fear uncertainty & doubt, combined with such atrociously bad writing, comments like they come from a refresher course at the Camp Of The True Believers (everybody else is ignoring it, we're the only ones who have this secret knowledge and the industry is trying to censor us, etc.) .
Really capped it off to see the links to the 'keep our landline telephones' people.
These folks need some really really strong pharmaceuticals to bring them BACK down to earth. FWIW, many of the psychotropic drugs, if you give them to a mentally healthy person, they start exhibiting symptoms of the mental health problem that that drug is designed to help.
Oy vey.
Last edited:
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Awhile back I watched a series of videos about a young couple with $$$ trying to build a "vacation get away" house.
Because they did not live in the immediate area, they could not be on site for any of the build, plus they knew nothing about construction
- When the lot was cleared of the trees they did not want, they paid to have them de-limbed and stacked. A few days later, a lumber crew, broke their gate and came in and stole all the logs. Luckily they had several cameras running and caught the guys red handed. (They had been accused many times, but there was never sufficient evidence that would hold up in court.)
- The day after the foundation was poured the forms were stripped and the owners did a quick walk around. That night as they were reviewing some of the pictures they had taken, they thought the foundation did not look right. Drawing called for 8", but they were 6". Excuse, "That is what we usually do !"
- Basement was supposed to have 9' (or 10') ceilings. Wall company setup forms and the cement was supposed to come the next day. They double checked the height and they were 8'. Excuse, "We don't have any 9/10' forms !"
- The last one was their own fault. They paid big $$$ to have custom milled 10/4" maple hardwood flooring made. It was delivered while the framers were still working, so the owners asked the framers to install it. Yep, they used pneumatic framing nailers. Big heads and gouges in the custom flooring.
gregtwojeeps
Well-known member
Well... The PoCo showed up unannounced today (leaving muddy tracks on my porch) and installed my "smart" meter.
View media item 61349
The associated migraines have already started and I think I hear voices talking to me.
http://stopsmartmeters.org/how-you-can-stop-smart-meters/
Get a whole roll of tin foil.
What is that gray thing hanging out under the MB ?
