Electrolysis Indoors?

[Scimonetti]

BEFORE YOU REPLY
I have no plans to do this and am not soliciting safety advice. I've read enough warnings not to and have seen the power of hydrogen.

I am curious about this as I have read in many places to only do it outside and do not cover the container as it produces hydrogen and oxygen gas(both indeed very flammable). Although the bubbles I get are very small and not that active, I'm always very safe and do it outside.


Once again, I am not giving safety advice, just wondering if anybody out theres knows about this topic. Just curious!

 

[montanafordman]

BEFORE YOU REPLY
I have no plans to do this and am not soliciting safety advice. I've read enough warnings not to and have seen the power of hydrogen in my chemistry class.

I am curious about this as I have read in many places to only do it outside and do not cover the container as it produces hydrogen and oxygen gas(both indeed very flammable). Although the bubbles I get are very small and not that active, I'm always very safe and do it outside.

A couple days ago I read a thread on practical machinist where a couple members claimed the amount diffuses indoors plenty fast enough and many do it. That got me thinking about concentrations and much hydrogen and oxygen are in air anyway. Air is mostly hydrogen. I am purely curious about this, but it seems the gasses are only an issue when built up and concentrated and when diffused become part of our atmosphere like always.
Wouldn't just a fan eliminate the danger?

Once again, I am not giving safety advice, just wondering if anybody out theres knows about this topic. Just curious!

You mean air is mostly NITROGEN which is inert and non-flammable.

The atmosphere is made up of: (excluding water vapor)

78% Nitrogen
21% Oxygen
1% trace gasses which include CO2 among others

As a pilot this was a part of my physiology curriculum. My college professor taught us to remember it by saying what is the most important thing to college kids and human life? 21 - that being the percentage of oxygen and the legal drinking age... then remember the rest is nitrogen and 1 percent for other gasses.

 

[Scimonetti]

You mean air is mostly NITROGEN which is inert and non-flammable.

The atmosphere is made up of: (excluding water vapor)

78% Nitrogen
21% Oxygen
1% trace gasses which include CO2 among others

As a pilot this was a part of my physiology curriculum. My college professor taught us to remember it by saying what is the most important thing to college kids and human life? 21 - that being the percentage of oxygen and the legal drinking age... then remember the rest is nitrogen and 1 percent for other gasses.

Oh haha wow I was really wrong on that one. Should have double checked that, there goes all my reasoning! I like the way of remembering.

 

[Autorotica]

I've seen a lot of dumb **** on YouTube and the like, but I've never seen anyone blow themselves up from the gasses that electrolysis gives off. I do it in the garage and have never had any issues (obviously, I'm still here). Oxygen has to be pretty concentrated to ignite, and then of course has to have a source of ignition before it begins to dissipate. I'm not sure just how flammable Hydrogen is, but it is, of course.

The amount of hydrogen concentration sufficient enough to support combustion is quite high. I would think you will be just fine.

Chris

 

[1982fxr]

considering how many different compositions of metal there are out there that may be thrown in a tank, plus paints etc with lead and God knows what else...could be a nice cocktail!

...and you don't have to immediately die or blow yourself up for it to be bad, lol.

I guess I'm like the old guys at the end of the movie Casino talking about who to wack out---"why take a chance?"

 

[Scimonetti]

considering how many different compositions of metal there are out there that may be thrown in a tank, plus paints etc with lead and God knows what else...could be a nice cocktail!

...and you don't have to immediately die or blow yourself up for it to be bad, lol.

I guess I'm like the old guys at the end of the movie Casino talking about who to wack out---"why take a chance?"

I think I'm going to keep it outside. Good point and it makes a mess taking out parts. I think I'll install a dock bubbler to keep it from freezing. -15 this morning froze a piece in it even though it was on full.

 

[Fretters]

Oh haha wow I was really wrong on that one. Should have double checked that, there goes all my reasoning! I like the way of remembering.

It was probably the water itself you were thinking of?

Personally, I wouldn't have any concerns about running one inside, unless your workshop is almost airtight and you don't open any doors for days or suchlike. Saying that though, the way some seem to just let their tank sink as much current as it wants would probably generate a lot more gas than a well regulated setup.

The only reason I don't run a small one inside the workshop is because it's pretty much guaranteed that something will fall into the vat and splash the solution over everything roundabouts, with Sod's law being what it is.

 

[Outlawmws]

Wet lead acid batteries also produce hydrogen when being charged, and I can ASSURE you, you won't have any problem finding cases of hydrogen explosions...

Smart move keeping it outside. In a closed space, given enough time it will collect and then, remember the Hindenburg...

If you rigged a hood and vented it outside, you'd probably be OK, not sure your parents would appreciate the heat loss in mid winter...

 

[rlitman]

The amount of hydrogen concentration sufficient enough to support combustion is quite high. I would think you will be just fine.

The LEL of hydrogen is 4%. The scary part is that the UEL is 75%, AND that hydrogen is about the easiest material to ignite out there. Sparks that are insufficient to light gasoline fumes will easily ignite hydrogen.

As for the comment "Oxygen has to be pretty concentrated to ignite": NO. Oxygen does not ignite in the air. Yes, it can be oxidized by some seriously out there chemicals (the same ones that set ice on fire), but not in the air.

Wet lead acid batteries also produce hydrogen when being charged, and I can ASSURE you, you won't have any problem finding cases of hydrogen explosions...

Smart move keeping it outside. In a closed space, given enough time it will collect and then, remember the Hindenburg...

If you rigged a hood and vented it outside, you'd probably be OK, not sure your parents would appreciate the heat loss in mid winter...

I don't think a hood will make any bit of a difference. Hydrogen is so much lighter than air that it will rapidly escape upwards by itself.

The issue here is confinement. With a battery, the bubbles of hydrogen can collect in the headspace within the battery, and enough actively leaking hydrogen can find a source of ignition,lead a flame front all the way back to the space inside the battery (because hydrogen is so easy to ignite that flame screens and spark arrestors don't reliably work with it), and set off the bulk of the hydrogen waiting inside.

The risk with hydrolysis is covering the tub. If you leave no confined space for the bubbles to collect, the hydrogen will readily escape into space, and you'll be fine.

 

[wild cowboy]

here is what happened to some folks that thought hydrogen was a nice safe harmless gas:

 

[Outlawmws]

The LEL of hydrogen is 4%. The scary part is that the UEL is 75%, AND that hydrogen is about the easiest material to ignite out there. Sparks that are insufficient to light gasoline fumes will easily ignite hydrogen.

As for the comment "Oxygen has to be pretty concentrated to ignite": NO. Oxygen does not ignite in the air. Yes, it can be oxidized by some seriously out there chemicals (the same ones that set ice on fire), but not in the air.



I don't think a hood will make any bit of a difference. Hydrogen is so much lighter than air that it will rapidly escape upwards by itself.

The issue here is confinement. With a battery, the bubbles of hydrogen can collect in the headspace within the battery, and enough actively leaking hydrogen can find a source of ignition,lead a flame front all the way back to the space inside the battery (because hydrogen is so easy to ignite that flame screens and spark arrestors don't reliably work with it), and set off the bulk of the hydrogen waiting inside.

The risk with hydrolysis is covering the tub. If you leave no confined space for the bubbles to collect, the hydrogen will readily escape into space, and you'll be fine.

Doing this inside isn't confinement? I have see there results of many a battery explosion some under the hoods of vehicles, and one inside a shop. with an open shop door.

Your description of what happens is accurate, the Hyd. ignites outside the battery and acts as it'd own fuse to the battery. While I doubt an explosion would occur inside a house, a fire could easily be ignited, and possibly some interesting spot explosions if it collected in pockets that were slightly contained.

Hyd is lighter than air so a hood should work, however, pick an explosion proof fan...

 

[RivennHewn]

I was thinking about setting up a tank out in the middle of a field.

Taking on of those really lite mylar bags, and sealing it on top.

An Estes rocket engine ignitor would be set inside.

As the bag fills up, you could remotely ignite the gas, and see how big a fireball you could create.

Oh, and film it so you could post it to you tube.

Maybe make the WTF thread.

 

[wild cowboy]

on New Years and 4th of July, we go to our place at the lake - I fill garbage bags full of oxygen and acetylene blend from my torch, float them out about 20 yards and anchor with a brick.

Then we sit way up on the deck and fire roman candles at them, and when you hit one, it is like an atom bomb went off! - The lake neighbors think it pretty cool though! - Crazy fun!

People 20 miles away have reported hearing the explosions!

Don't try this except in an extremely rural area!

 

[404]

I have done this in my cellar, and not had a problem. It is possible to calculate the number of H and O atoms released by the amperage over time. Knowing that and the basement volume gives an idea of how fast the lower flammability limit is reached.

If doing this in the garage or outside one might insulate the tub.
Build a ridgid sheet foam box to insulate the tub. Box would have a flat bottom under the tub that sits on the floor. Pic below.
This is a cut away view.

Pink is tub

green is water and washing soda

blue is sheet foam box.

wires, rebar, part being cleaned not shown.

Box will collect all gas so it is important to secure all the electrical connections to prevent sparks. Wires should be securely attached to rebar, this means hose clamps or similar.

To minimize danger there should be as little empty free air space inside as possible. Make the box a tidy fit to the tub and fill the extra space above the water with foam or similar.

Unplug power before disturbing. After taking cover off stand cover on it's side to let the gasses fall out.

To reduce static electricity problems use some armor all or fabric non static spray on all the foam parts after assembly. Both sides and all edges.

You may choose to set this up outside the house.

Car battery explosions do happen but the configuration is different from the de rusting setup. People will violently charge the battery. The mixed O and H come out the vent cap. Now some Einstein removes the jumper cable clamp and draws an arc on the terminal right by the vent cap.

Since the H and O are already mixed in the ideal proportion, the flame started by the arc has no problem at all traveling into the battery case and rupturing it.

 

[Steinmetz]

here is what happened to some folks that thought hydrogen was a nice safe harmless gas:

They didn't think hydrogen was a nice, safe and harmless gas. They took precautions to minimize the possibility of ignition (even though they ultimately failed).

The Hindenburg was sized for Helium gas. The principal source of Helium was natural gas wells in Texas. The U. S. government embargoed sales of Helium to Germany just prior to the Hindenburg accident.

 

[Steinmetz]

The LEL of hydrogen is 4%. The scary part is that the UEL is 75%, AND that hydrogen is about the easiest material to ignite out there. Sparks that are insufficient to light gasoline fumes will easily ignite hydrogen.

As for the comment "Oxygen has to be pretty concentrated to ignite": NO. Oxygen does not ignite in the air. Yes, it can be oxidized by some seriously out there chemicals (the same ones that set ice on fire), but not in the air.



I don't think a hood will make any bit of a difference. Hydrogen is so much lighter than air that it will rapidly escape upwards by itself.

The issue here is confinement. With a battery, the bubbles of hydrogen can collect in the headspace within the battery, and enough actively leaking hydrogen can find a source of ignition,lead a flame front all the way back to the space inside the battery (because hydrogen is so easy to ignite that flame screens and spark arrestors don't reliably work with it), and set off the bulk of the hydrogen waiting inside.

The risk with hydrolysis is covering the tub. If you leave no confined space for the bubbles to collect, the hydrogen will readily escape into space, and you'll be fine.

Make sure that you are on the right side of the explosion curve for hydrogen.

 

[Steinmetz]

on New Years and 4th of July, we go to our place at the lake - I fill garbage bags full of oxygen and acetylene blend from my torch, float them out about 20 yards and anchor with a brick.

Then we sit way up on the deck and fire roman candles at them, and when you hit one, it is like an atom bomb went off! - The lake neighbors think it pretty cool though! - Crazy fun!

People 20 miles away have reported hearing the explosions!

Don't try this except in an extremely rural area!

Waste of acetylene.

We used to pump acetylene into the shop trash can in high school and ignite it. It would generally bring about discipline applied to the entire class.

 

[rlitman]

on New Years and 4th of July, we go to our place at the lake - I fill garbage bags full of oxygen and acetylene blend from my torch, float them out about 20 yards and anchor with a brick.

The static electricity in the bag is known to set these off while it is being filled. People have lost many appendages doing this.

Doing this inside isn't confinement? I have see there results of many a battery explosion some under the hoods of vehicles, and one inside a shop. with an open shop door...
Hyd is lighter than air so a hood should work, however, pick an explosion proof fan...

No, indoors is not confinement. It's a question of relative volumes.
Fart indoors, and you're still in too large an area to worry. Fart in a phonebooth, and you're STILL in too large a volume of air to worry. Fart in a spacesuit, and maybe you've got an issue.

I'm not too sure that an explosion proof fan is suitable around hydrogen within its explosive range. I wouldn't want to risk it.

 

[Fretters]

No, indoors is not confinement. It's a question of relative volumes.
Fart indoors, and you're still in too large an area to worry. Fart in a phonebooth, and you're STILL in too large a volume of air to worry. Fart in a spacesuit, and maybe you've got an issue.

Hell, none but the latter may be an explosion risk, but they're all too confined a space where some smelly arsed beggars are concerned.

 

[paulsomlo]

I do electrolysis in my 10x20 shop on a regular basis, no problems.

 

[Outlawmws]

The static electricity in the bag is known to set these off while it is being filled. People have lost many appendages doing this.



No, indoors is not confinement. It's a question of relative volumes.
Fart indoors, and you're still in too large an area to worry. Fart in a phonebooth, and you're STILL in too large a volume of air to worry. Fart in a spacesuit, and maybe you've got an issue.

I'm not too sure that an explosion proof fan is suitable around hydrogen within its explosive range. I wouldn't want to risk it.

So I guess the explosions I have seen in your "unconfined spaces" just didn't happen...

And I find your two comments quite contradictory...

You are entitled to your opinion, even if the evidence is against you... I'm done.

 

[rlitman]

So I guess the explosions I have seen in your "unconfined spaces" just didn't happen...

And I find your two comments quite contradictory...

You are entitled to your opinion, even if the evidence is against you... I'm done.

Look, if an overcharged BATTERY is under a car hood and it explodes, the explosion came from the hydrogen in the battery head-space (which is indeed confined), and probably NOT from the fact that the hydrogen was "confined" under the hood of the car (so long as the hood was at least cracked open). There's a big difference between an exploding battery that wrecks a handful of things around it (not to mention the mess the acid makes), and a hydrogen explosion of several cubic feet which would level the building and leave behind what looks like an EF5 tornado passed through.

As for the explosion proof fan issue, that's completely unrelated.
Explosion proof fans are designed to have nearly airtight seals around the motor shaft ends so that even if the motor housing were to fill with an explosive mixture of gases and a spark inside set them off, the flash front cannot travel past the seals and ignite the explosive gases outside of the motor. That works fine for MOST gases (usually things like gasoline fumes, xylene, propane, etc), and uses the same principles as a flash arrestor screen. Namely: gases can travel through, but the thermal mass of the screen absorbs energy from the flashfront as it passes, which leaves the exiting gases too cold to ignite what's on the other side of the screen.

The issue is that these sort of devices are notoriously unreliable at protecting against hydrogen explosions, because the spark energy needed to ignite hydrogen is so low (sparks too small to be seen can set it off), and the hydrogen flash front travels so quickly (so the thermal mass does not have the exposure time to reduce the energy much).
People who work with oxy/hydrogen torches sometimes bubble their gases through a water bath to act as a more effective flash arrestor. I suppose if your explosion proof fan were underwater . . . LOL

 

[Outlawmws]

http://www.arhab.org/pdfs/h2_safety_fsheet.pdf

 

[SeattleKent]

I do electrolysis in my 3 car garage all the time without a problem.

For comparison, look at a similar problem. I was reading a book on welding which said never weld an empty gas tank. I got to thinking they were being overly careful and this cannot be that dangerous. To prove myself right I did a quick internet search. Wow. I quickly found a number of recent news stories of people being killed from welding on an empty gas tank. I was totally wrong.

When I started doing electrolysis I was very worried about the explosion hazard. I then did a number of internet searches. I never found a single instance of someone cleaning a part with electrolysis and it exploding. If it really is all that dangerous I would expect there to be a number of articles on fool blowing themselves or their houses up. There are not.