Element Fire Extinguisher?

[Vintage Veloce]

I was looking for a new fire extinguisher for my car, and this thing seems really attractive. Small, no residue, long discharge time. Potassium Nitrate based. Looks like a road flare. Anybody try one?

https://elementfire.com/

I think it is originally an Italian design from these guys:
http://www.fss-esp.com/index.html

Comments?

 

[77Birdman]

Those things look pretty slick. Also some nice mounts for the car. A bit pricey but what is the cost of safety.

 

[GrayFlattop]

It's probably better than nothing. They seem to emphasize that a longer discharge time is an advantage. What really matters is how much of the extinguishing chemical can be delivered.

Thinking in terms of using water as an extinguishing agent, you would get a longer discharge TIME using a super-soaker squirt gun, but you would be able to deliver a greater VOLUME of water with a 2-1/2 gallon pressurized water fire extinguisher.

That it does not need servicing is an advantage, as is the relative size of the unit, but I wouldn't count on it to be my only tool for fire suppression.

Looking at the video on their website, it doesn't appear as if the output of the Element extinguisher is very forceful or directionally controllable, nor does it project the output very far, so you might have to get much closer to the fire to be able to use it.

It's not UL or FIA certified, so that says something. But if it's a choice between no extinguisher and this one, that's an easy choice.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

My understanding is that is lacks certifications because the bodies like UL only certify typical pressurized cylinders, or something like that. So I think it is impossible for these to be even considered for testing (so I heard).

But I would love some kind of review / comparison from someone who has used both!

I suspect that in practiced hands a traditional fire extinguisher is probably best... but I'm thinking the longer run time may be very useful for someone using an extinguisher for the first time.

 

[77Birdman]

New technology is always hard to deal with, without getting into the spec sheet of them, they look like they have their place. It looks to me like they would be perfect for a car. Small enough maybe even keep 2 in there. Not sure I would use them for sole protection in a building though. Might be handing under the kitchen sink!

 

[n20junkie]

No reach, from they look like. Radiant heat burns are a real thing. Pkus it looks like you have to light it? If that makes sparks, F that when you may be in the presence of flamable fumes, plus how well does it light in the rain?

If you want something that breaks the combustion chain, get halon. Pull pin and squirt away.

 

[Aaron_W]

My understanding is that is lacks certifications because the bodies like UL only certify typical pressurized cylinders, or something like that. So I think it is impossible for these to be even considered for testing (so I heard).

But I would love some kind of review / comparison from someone who has used both!

I suspect that in practiced hands a traditional fire extinguisher is probably best... but I'm thinking the longer run time may be very useful for someone using an extinguisher for the first time.

Unfortunately while often true that new tech often has to jump through additional hurdles it is also the typical marketing ploy from those who don't feel like following the certification process. In the age of Facebook many are trying to get certified through the court of public opinion.


I did find some references to this method of fire suppression, it appears to have begun development in the 1990s as a replacement for Halon systems. Halon 1211 and 1301 were very effective gas suppression systems, that unfortunately also have a negative environmental impact so have been phased out of use.


This is an interesting concept, but a bit pricey. You could easily buy 2-4 conventional fire extinguishers of adequate performance for a car for the price of one of these. The small size is definitely attractive for some applications.

The are making comparison to a 5lb ABC but don't actually claim to provide similar effectiveness. As mentioned above discharge time doesn't = effectiveness.
A 5lb extinguisher is larger than the typical small extinguisher most would buy for a car (2.5lb being typical).


Not knocking this device, but I'd want to know a lot more before I'd buy one. The lack of performance data makes it hard to make an informed decision. The typical 2.5lb ABC is rated 1A 10BC, a 5lb ABC is 3A 40BC.

If these can really match the performance of a 5lb extinguisher (typically 7-8lbs total weight) in a 1/2lb package that would be impressive and the price much less excessive.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

This is an interesting concept, but a bit pricey. You could easily buy 2-4 conventional fire extinguishers of adequate performance for a car for the price of one of these. The small size is definitely attractive for some applications.
....
If these can really match the performance of a 5lb extinguisher (typically 7-8lbs total weight) in a 1/2lb package that would be impressive and the price much less excessive.

I don't compare these with an ABC, I compare them with a Halon or Halotron. It's the whole benefit of not having any residue, especially for car use.
If it is comparable with even a 1.4 pound Halotron, it is much LESS expensive.

But I agree, I really would like to see some kind of objective comparison of the performance with a Halotron extinguisher.

 

[58Yeoman]

BS. Why does the video fade to telling us how long it takes to activate? Then, all of a sudden the guy is leaning into the fire to put it out. Instead of 2 liters of gas burning, try a burning tire or 15 gallons of gas running on the road, all ablaze. I'll stick with my old technology FE's, thank you.

 

[GrayFlattop]

No reach, from they look like. Radiant heat burns are a real thing. Pkus it looks like you have to light it? If that makes sparks, F that when you may be in the presence of flamable fumes, plus how well does it light in the rain?

If you want something that breaks the combustion chain, get halon. Pull pin and squirt away.

Yes indeed. In thinking about it, it does look just like a road flare. We all know how well they ignite after Sitting around for years ... not.

And as far as there not being any cleanup, well, dry chem is messy, but the news is if you have a fire, you already need cleanup.

In the shop and house I have a couple of 5 & 10# CO2 extinguishers, but that would be too bulky for a car. The element? I don't think I would feel good about having one until I used one and the videos just are not very convincing.

 

[fyrlt1]

BS. Why does the video fade to telling us how long it takes to activate? Then, all of a sudden the guy is leaning into the fire to put it out. Instead of 2 liters of gas burning, try a burning tire or 15 gallons of gas running on the road, all ablaze. I'll stick with my old technology FE's, thank you.

I found a site for a unit called extinguish stick that is the exact same thing as this one being discussed here. They compare it 'pricewise' to the cost of a 30# fire extinguisher!? Really?, a 30 pounder? So they tout how cheap it is. They also show an obviously doctored video of a man using multiple conventional extinguishers one after the other while another man stands there with one of these units continuously discharging during that process to show the extended discharge time. However, none of those other extinguishers are used until it is empty, just discharged maybe halfway and then on to the next one.
The big thing to me is that the 'stick' is used to extinguish the fires from maybe 6 to 12 inches from the actual fire and the fires they use are very small, isolated,contained and have obviously been recently set and have not evolved to a high temperature event. This whole ad reminds me of one of those 'As seen on T.V.' promos. They may be of use under some circumstances but until They prove themselves,I too think I will stay with what I know.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Um, no thanks, I'll pass.

 

[Showkey]

Seems they are two times too expensive to be competitive.

 

[GrayFlattop]

Seems they are two times too expensive to be competitive.

Quite frankly, I don't think that the selling price has anything to do with it. If you have to get that close to the fire it introduces an unacceptable risk.

 

[astrohip]

So after a year or two, does anyone have any real-life experience? Put out a fire with this?

I'm looking for a couple new FE, especially one to carry on the Mule, and was thinking about the Element. But would love to hear from any GJ users who have used it.

 

[PelicanPines]

I have had a house fire... with one extinguisher in the house... two floors down... fire got out of control... nobody in the house remembered the extinguisher.

Every house I have owned since... one extinguisher and flashlight in every closet, extinguisher at the front and back of the garage, extinguisher at the doorway into the laundry room, extinguisher in the kitchen, another extinguisher in the big shed, my office too, due to where it is in the house.

If I got one of those ... I would sacrifice one to see how I liked it. I would also ask my towns fire investigator their opinion.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

I did buy one of the Element E50 models, and I keep it in the driver's side pocket of my vintage car. But I have had no occasion to test it, thankfully!
For me, the mostly likely use would be a fire around the carburetors, and it might work. ;-) The long 50 second operation time is appealing.

I wouldn't use an ABC on my car... those things can total a car even without a fire!

I do keep large Halotron extinguishers in the garage next to larger ABC extinguishers. I've considered a Halotron for the vintage car too... but the ones small enough to be convenient in the car's cabin are pretty small.. a 5 pound one will only last 9 seconds.

 

[PelicanPines]

After my house fire... the Fire chief suggested we EACH test an extinguisher from wall, pin pull, aim, trigger to run to call fire...

 

[pcmeiners]

"What really matters is how much of the extinguishing chemical can be delivered. "

Agree, they compare it to a 5lb extinguisher, Does anyone believe a fire extinguisher with chemical components of less then 2/3 of a pound could possibly compete with 5lbs of active ingredient ? Element would be OK for a small trash can fire in an office, that is about it. Now for a vehicle or plane fire you can get a foam or Halotron extinguisher, yes we know a halon unit can be dangerous in a closed area, so can an Element . Found Elements literature amusing, especially the description of the chemical reaction .

"and the aerosol that is formed is made up primarily of free radicals of Potassium K+, of Nitrogen N (an inert gas), and water vapor." ……. talk about BS


"The long 50 second operation time is appealing."

Again it is the amount of the chemicals in the unit. Yes, Element may go 50 seconds, restrict the flow of a standard extinguisher down to the amount of gas emitted by an Element, and they to could go for a long period (minutes)

 

[juddspaintballs]

I wouldn't use an ABC on my car... those things can total a car even without a fire!

How?

 

[pcmeiners]

ABC dry chemical used in any area of electrical/electric will cause corrosion over time due to moisture in the air . Let one go in a kitchen once, NEVER again. The dust covered everything in a 2 story house, had to open all electronics and remove the chemical dust. Have 2 Halotron 15lb, 1 CO2 and one water mist extinguishers

"those things can total a car even without a fire!"
I suppose a car doing 60mph running into a skid of ABC extinguishers could total a car.

 

[White 99]

BC dry chemical extinguishers are baking soda. Not as bad to clean up and not corrosive. Water is a good for A type of fires. That is what I keep in the garage. For a car extinguisher I use a BC rated one.

 

[parb]

I had to use a dry fire extinguisher. Cleanup was a mess, we used 2% vinegar/water solution to neutralize the corrosive properties of the baking soda. In my restored cars I have a halotron extinguisher. Something similar to this 1.4lbs extinguisher: https://www.rennline.com/H3R-1LB-25LB-Fire-Extinguishers/productinfo/FE10/3102|3104

 

[pcmeiners]

"BC dry chemical extinguishers are baking soda. Not as bad to clean up and not corrosive."

Sodium or Potassium (bi)carbonate are slightly alkaline salts, which is corrosive if left in contact with metals for extended periods of time in a moist or humid area; any salt is corrosive, some more then others.

 

[bullnerd]

ABC dry chemical used in any area of electrical/electric will cause corrosion over time due to moisture in the air . Let one go in a kitchen once, NEVER again. The dust covered everything in a 2 story house, had to open all electronics and remove the chemical dust. Have 2 Halotron 15lb, 1 CO2 and one water mist extinguishers

"those things can total a car even without a fire!"
I suppose a car doing 60mph running into a skid of ABC extinguishers could total a car.

PC, what brand do you like?

 

[Theo911]

So is Halotron the agreed upon fire extinguisher type for home and auto?

 

[pcmeiners]

So is Halotron the agreed upon fire extinguisher type for home and auto?

I would say anyone who has released a dry chemical extinguisher in their home/shop/auto would probably agree it is the way to go if you can afford it. Technically you are supposed to have the tank visual inspect in 6 years, and hydro-ed every 12; both of which add to the expense, basically a BS money grab, as these are stainless tanks at a relatively low pressure (126psi).

As to brand, I have Amerex, Buckeye (all metal), but others are fine, I stay away from the plastic units.

 

[pbon]

You can also buy the spray cans like Tundra. Obviously, they won’t pass tech. But not everyone is a racer.

 

[bullnerd]

Thanks PC.

 

[wssix99]

BS. Why does the video fade to telling us how long it takes to activate? Then, all of a sudden the guy is leaning into the fire to put it out. Instead of 2 liters of gas burning, try a burning tire or 15 gallons of gas running on the road, all ablaze. I'll stick with my old technology FE's, thank you.

Indeed. Let's assume that we wouldn't die just trying to use this little thing against a real fire...

It looks to me like they would be perfect for a car.

It's not optimal. I wouldn't rely on the mechanism of this thing unless I had a real fire extinguisher backing it up.

I don't compare these with an ABC, I compare them with a Halon or Halotron.

Right; except they claim that this acts in a manner like a light version of a Halon extinguisher crossed with a CO2 extinguisher.

(BTW - If it acts by reacting with any oxygen, I can't see how it would be safe to breathe. )

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3...tOperationDescription.pdf?9543567154874779486


Not so great for a car.^ Assuming that one can walk into the fire to use the flare to put the fire out... and assuming that this puts out a large enough cloud to put out a car-size fire (not a frying pan)... the gas blows away and the fire can still ignite.

A powder extinguisher does leave a residue, but it leaves a barrier that keeps the fire out: https://www.allstate.com/blog/how-fire-extinguisher-works-im/

I wouldn't use an ABC on my car... those things can total a car even without a fire!

I've never lit my own personal car on fire, but I understand that once one's car is on fire, things are pretty much going to be a mess - no matter what.

My understanding is that is lacks certifications because the bodies like UL only certify typical pressurized cylinders, or something like that. So I think it is impossible for these to be even considered for testing (so I heard).

I see two hurdles:
- They would have to prove this is safe to use as a hand-held device. (I have my doubts and am skeptical they can prove it is as safe as the state-of-the-art with regard to breathing the gas or the stand-off distance required to use the device.)
- They would have to come up with an expiration regime for the device. (I assume this is probably the issue around what you may have heard regarding pressurized cylinders. They have a clear path for inspection/expiration and we know, with confidence, how long they can be stored before they need service or disposal. These things are much harder to figure out, because so much of it depends on the user's care of the unit and if they keep the thing dry.)

 

[White 99]

"BC dry chemical extinguishers are baking soda. Not as bad to clean up and not corrosive."

Sodium or Potassium (bi)carbonate are slightly alkaline salts, which is corrosive if left in contact with metals for extended periods of time in a moist or humid area; any salt is corrosive, some more then others.

Would you say a BC would be better than an ABC dry chemical to use in a car fire considering the clean up afterward; of course assuming the fire doesn't destroy the entire car?

 

[pcmeiners]

Just read Elements entire "description of operation". What a load of BS, who ever wrote this never took a chemistry class, it is actually funny. It's a "dazzle them with ********" description. …………….

https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma...8d1879ea4db6639656bbe1af129db4fc&libId=k5...

 

[wssix99]

Would you say a BC would be better than an ABC dry chemical to use in a car fire considering the clean up afterward; of course assuming the fire doesn't destroy the entire car?

BC could be appropriate for the engine compartment but not the interior of a road car. Some interior materials are "A" and may not be effectively fought by a BC.

 

[White 99]

BC could be appropriate for the engine compartment but not the interior of a road car. Some interior materials are "A" and may not be effectively fought by a BC.

Water might be the best for that case. From what I have seen a fully involved car fire probably won't be put out by any dry chemical fire extinguisher.

 

[pcmeiners]

I have seen a fully engulfed passenger area of a car fully extinguished with a dry chemical instantly. They are very effective, but if a car is to be saved, dry chem is not the way to go.