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Ellis 1800

jkesselr

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Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Hey guys, i picked up an Ellis 1800 for a song. It is missing some pieces and needs some love. Where is the best place to buy new parts? Is there anywhere you know of that sells used parts? Many parts are available for ridiculous money and some parts simply don't appear to be available.

I want to do a quickie cleanup on it, maybe a coat of paint, and get it back into fighting shape, but I'm not finding a lot of detail online. Are you aware of any kind of service manual for lack of a better term?

Finally, the bronze gear from the speed reducer is toast. Any ideas where I could source a new one or does anybody on this site have the capacity to machine one?

Thanks in advance for any assistance you areable to offer!

John
 

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vpd66

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Mar 1, 2010
Messages
709
Location
Central Wisconsin
Call Ellis. They are still in business selling saws and the 1800 is still being made. Has far has parts pricing I don't know they might be a little on the high side. I've never dealt with Ellis (I'm still waiting for my deal to come along on a used one! LOL) but hear rumor there very friendly. There located in Wisconsin around the Madison area. For the bronze gear I'm sure if you have the dimensions it is an off the shelf part. I doubt they would manufacture there own sets of gears. That would be like making your own sizes of nuts and bolts for the product.
 

MountaineerMiner

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
44
I have rebuilt a 3000 and have an 1800 waiting in the wings both because the price was right. You can buy parts from Ellis and they have been helpful over the phone the one or two times I have needed to call. You need to know what you are asking for or be able to describe it well, they dont have a very detailed parts diagram available that I have found. I used photos online of new machines to figure out where stuff was supposed to go. They are ok saws, but after owning them I would not hold to the holy grail status they seem to get, if you could only have one saw I understand the appeal.

That said, unless there are more parts not pictured you are missing a few key pieces that may warrant a part out if you are not into machine work. The biggest problem I see for you are the blade guides and arms are missing. I dont know what those cost new from Ellis, but guessing $250-350+? They are the most intricate part of the saw, the rest is mostly just fab parts.

Ellis didn't make that gearbox, Ohio Gear did and they supply replacement parts. That bronze gear is not a simple task to remake without the right tools and tedious with them if not part of a production setup. Your best bet is to hunt eBay for an entire gearbox. There should be a part number cast into the gearbox somewhere, I tried to look at mine but did not see it readily available, however they are both bolted in place. Expect to pay $100-400.

Other items I notice missing are the down feed cylinder ($75 for an import, expect much more for a direct replacement), Tension springs, new tension spring rod (yours is bent), 2 step pulley's for between the motor and gearbox, motor mounting plate and tension wedge (bolts onto the gearbox, you have half of it on the motor), belt guard, material clamp, shutoff switch and slide bar, and blade brush.

Some of these you can do without or fab yourself, others could be difficult. A material clamp would be one of the last items I worried about until it is running, I use use bar clamps on the 3000 half the time anyway.

Good luck, look forward to seeing it run again if possible!

Mike
 
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jkesselr

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Thansk for the responses guys!

Mike, I have more parts, including the blade guides (although there is some bearing/axle issues that need to be addressed), springs, motor mounting plate, and material clamp(s).

Near as I can tell, I need a blade guide bearing set, chip brush, downfeed cylinder, tension spring rod, pulleys, belt guard, shutoff switch and slider, belt, belt guard, and blade.

Are the import downfeeds any good? Ellis wants $245 for theirs.

Also, in thinking about cleaning it up, I have considered blowing it apart, painting and reassembling. Is there anything to know about reassembly that could bite me in the *** or that is tedious? I just want to be sure I am not opening a can of worms, vs. just taping it off and blowing a new coat of paint on it.
 
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jkesselr

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Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Looks like no pics of the clamps, but i do have 2. Also, I presume that the wiring runs in the chanel from the back of the saw, above the blade, and down into the little 3x5 box near the shutoff switch? I assume just two wires that basically create an out and back that is interrupted by the switch? Do you just use something like romex for this or is there a better product?
 

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jkesselr

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Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Do you know if the pulleys are the same, just reversed, or are there two separate part numbers?
 

MountaineerMiner

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
44
Ignore the mess of my shops in the photos, I have been working on it, I swear!

Photo of the 3000 below. Still needs the chip pan, the sheet metal guard that covers the power switch, and a clamp. There is also a piece of 1/4" plate that goes over the wire in the front I have not put back on, I don't understand its purpose other than as a wire guard.

2jrqVM6


3000 from the wire side, guard missing. I used SJ cable and would recommend that over romex. It is just a basic power break, no motor starter or contactor.

2jrqVL4


Do you know if the pulleys are the same, just reversed, or are there two separate part numbers?

Its the same one. 3 step pulley, 2"OD on the small end 4"OD on the big end.

2jrqWbh


2jrtJ2j


I disassembled, blasted or wire brushed depending on size, and repainted. Not sure I would do it again, but it does look good. I also replaced the front wheel bearings and the blade guide bearings. The 1800 and 3000 use the same bearings.

The only real trick to the rebuild is on the front wheel, there are 3 washers of different thickness that act as spacers. I forgot the order I took them off in and had to call Ellis. They asked about saw details to determine the year, it sounded like not all are the same.

Front wheel bearings (1800 wheel shown)
2jrqW3X


Blade guide bearings. 4 5200-ZZ for either side of the blade front and rear and 2 1607-ZZ for the top, one each both ends.
2jrv2L6


New bearings on the 3000
2jrtHXr


1800 below, again, ignore my progress!
2jrv2Nv


On the 1800 the front guide adjustment bolt broke off trying to remove it. This is because the threads get jammed up using it as a stop bolt. the 3000 was hard to get apart too for that reason. On the 3000 I replaced with a new hand knob and undercut the threads so they would not jam up.
2jrqW67

2jrv2So


Ellis down feed cylinder vs import. The import honestly works better but it is on a much lighter saw. Ellis also appears to have changed the valve design since this one was made. When I got the 3000 the previous owner was only using the spring to control the down feed, kind of set it and forget it. He gave me the cylinder in a box along with the factory clamp and said they were both junk.
2jrqWi1

2jrv2Z2


Tension spring detail
2jrtJ3b


4" switch power box you inquired about
2jrtJ4P
 

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MountaineerMiner

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Jul 28, 2012
Messages
44
I inserted photos in order but they didnt load. Not sure what is up with that. I attached them to the last post and this one but unfortunately now the post dosent make much sense. Its like technology is going backwards. **** like that is why I dont even bother with forums usually anymore!
 

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jkesselr

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Wow, Mike, that saw is beautiful! What brand and color of paint did you use for the saw and the guards? Was it a pretty close match to original? Did you buy a new Ellis decal? How did you clean up the machined surfaces?

Is there any issue with buying cheap bearings from an online retailer, or do I need to buy top notch stuff? Is there anything special about the bearing axles or are they basically just bolts? Also, do you know the bearing numbers for the miter pivot portion? Is there a bearing in the head drop joint? If I blow this apart for paint, is there anything special about putting it back together?

Finally, can you tell me the depth of the v-groove in your pulleys at all 3 positions and what the 2nd grove measures? Is there any reason I can't just buy generic pulleys that have the same measurements and shift diameter? I looked at an Ellis one and the measurements were different. Maybe like 3.62" is ringing a bell instead of 4". Are yours original?

Is the chip brush anything special? It looks like a wire wheel you'd chuck up in a drill.

Can you send measurements of the downfeed? I'd love to buy an Ellis for the plug and play aspect, but $245 hurts!

Any info on the on/off switch or how the auto shutoff is formed?

I want to put it back together with quality results, but I don't have to have it all Ellis or perfectly factory and period correct.

Thank you again for all of the information, you have been SO much help! This is what this forum is all about when it is functioning like it should! Thank you for your contributions in sharing your knowledge!
 

MountaineerMiner

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
44
I couldn't sleep so here is my long winded reply....

What brand and color of paint did you use for the saw and the guards

The factory Ellis paint is a green hammered type finish. I tried to replicate it by using Rustoleum Hammered Verde Green. I have had mixed luck with the hammered paints and in this case it was not worth the hassel of spray bombs for such a large area and the hammered effect was faint. I probably used $100 worth and halfway through you could not buy the Verde Green anywhere and had to get some off an eBay reseller to finish. Its back on Amazon now at least, I thought it had been discontinued. On the 1800 I am just going to get a gallon of alkyd enamel from SW color matched and spray it through the pressure pot. I dont think they make the hammered paint the same as 15-20 years ago, it used to be a lot tougher and had a stronger hammered effect but the stuff now not so much. SW has one in their industrial line I want to try but its only premixed and more of a blue. The orange is Kabota Orange implement paint from Tractor Supply. That I would do again for how small of an area it was.

Did you buy a new Ellis decal

Friends wife cut it out of vinyl on her craft cutter. I attached a PDF of the logo cut path I made by tracing a scaled picture of the original in AutoCAD. The E got offset on mine when placing it on, if you didnt notice before you will now. I may redo it since I ended up buying one of the cutters myself since. My wife makes fun of me for it, but its been a great shop tool!

How did you clean up the machined surfaces

Since its not really a precision machine and almost all of it is painted I used more aggressive methods. Purple power and green scotch brite to start, wire wheel to remove 2 previous paint jobs on the big pieces and steel grit blast on the parts that would fit in the blast cabinet. On the bare steel back plates I DA sanded them after blasting then straight sanded for grain and oiled after painting. The aluminum base was almost cut in half so I milled out the cutup contaminated metal then used aluminum stick weld to fill it back in, milled back flush and sandblasted.

Is there any issue with buying cheap bearings from an online retailer, or do I need to buy top notch stuff? Is there anything special about the bearing axles or are they basically just bolts? Also, do you know the bearing numbers for the miter pivot portion? Is there a bearing in the head drop joint?

I bought cheapest ones I could find that met the original specs. They still are not cheap though since they are double row steel shielded bearings. I think I got them online from VBX or somewhere like that. The pivot bearings on mine were fine so I reinstalled them. If you pull them off you should be able to read the model number on the race if you look real close or with a magnifying glass. The bearing axles are just bolts. There are very few machined parts on these other than the base castings. The drop head has bronze bushings I think but cant remember exactly, definitely no ball bearings, may even just be steel sleeved.

If I blow this apart for paint, is there anything special about putting it back together?

I had the advantage of having a second one sitting there for reference so its easy to say no, but they are really basic saws when you get to it. I like to work in chunks and try not to disassemble a bunch of small pieces at once. Take the head off and set it aside, do the base swivel and table, then move on to the head, get it mounted, do the motor and gearbox, finish with the blade guides.

My 2 cents, get it running before tearing it down, even if you dont have a down feed cylinder. Find a replacement gearbox before doing anything else and get it roughed in enough to test other issues that could be fixed along the way.

Finally, can you tell me the depth of the v-groove in your pulleys at all 3 positions and what the 2nd grove measures? Is there any reason I can't just buy generic pulleys that have the same measurements and shift diameter? I looked at an Ellis one and the measurements were different. Maybe like 3.62" is ringing a bell instead of 4". Are yours original?

Little less than 1/2", 0.47" or something. I have only ever measured pulleys/sheaves by OD and belt width. You may be referring to the pitch rather than the OD with the 3.62" measurement. I doubt it is a 3-5/8" OD but its possible. I dont know if they are original, but on the two saws I have both use a 4" 3-step steel sheave. Note steel/cast iron, diecast/zinc is also available for less money but I would not recommend that.

https://www.masterdrives.com/sheaves/Step Pulleys.pdf

https://www.rainbowprecisionproducts.com/mas42-5/8_step_v_belt_pulley
or
https://www.mrosupply.com/sheaves/step-sheaves/2485845_aks42-58_masterdrive/

Is the chip brush anything special? It looks like a wire wheel you'd chuck up in a drill.

Its a wire wheel you'd chuck up in a drill with a bronze bushing slid over the shaft and a small piece of weld to hold it on. I need to make one still.

Can you send measurements of the downfeed

Pin to pin is 11-1/2". I have read some guys use a double acting pneumatic cylinder with the ports valved together to accomplish the same thing.

Any info on the on/off switch or how the auto shutoff is formed

Its just a cheap toggle switch with a threaded barrel that goes trough the small hole inside that 4" box with a piece of flat bar that slides up and down to turn it off. Thats what the arch in front is for, the sliding bar hits it and turns the switch off. I tried to load a video but I guess you cant do that.

Both saws I bought had the factory switch removed and a light switch in its place if that tells you something.
 
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jkesselr

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Wow, another awesome post, filled with info. I really can't tell you just how grateful I am for all of the information! I will see what I can figure out on the wire brush, as they want like $25 for it, which just seems asinine. On the pulleys, I'll probably just buy ellis. The links you sent were all in the $40-50 range and ellis ones are $55. It's worth it to me for a few bucks to make sure I get the right ones. I blew the gearbox apart today and found the teeth that went missing off the bronze gear, as well as some bronze shavings. The worm gear looks great though, and the bearings appear to be in decent (not great) shape. I might see if I can get the gear and a rebuild kit and compare the cost of that to just buying a new box. We'll see.

Unfortunately, I ripped it all apart before reading your advice to get it running first. We'll see how it turns out.

Two more questions that came up... on the bearing axles in the blade guides, they don't seem to come out of the bearings. Do the bearings you listed come with axles in them already?

Also, the blade tires look like they are pretty shot. New ones are $200 each, which I'd rather not spend. Have you ever tried the Blue Max tires that you slip on over the drive/idle blade wheels? I'm wondering if they work worth a darn. Thoughts?

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you! I am so thankful for your input!
 

MountaineerMiner

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
44
The blade guide axles definitely come apart. I used an arbor press to get them apart and back together I believe. I’ll take a look in the morning to be sure.

The tires on both of mine were fine. It’s like they were bonded to the wheels though so the replacement may be a process and that could be driving the cost. I did have a set of replacement urethane tires on a Delta 20” vertical that worked fine but I am not familiar with blue max in particular. These ones were orange f that means anything.
 
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jkesselr

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Mar 16, 2016
Messages
382
Were the ones on the vertical saw for a metal bandsaw or a wood bandsaw?
 
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