Energy Saver Circuit, Intermittent Buzz

[kTHREE]

I have a weird one that has stumped everyone I've asked so far.
Hopefully some of you old timers can chime in.

My house has 2 meters, a main and an energy saver.
The energy saver is tied into my exterior AC coil and a baseboard heater in the basement.

How it's wired:
Main feed comes into panel.
20 amp 220 breaker feeds out of panel to my second meter outside.
Second meter feeds back into house, then feeds back out to the HVAC coil and to my baseboard, nothing else.
The problem/worry is the this 20 amp breaker buzzes for exactly 5 seconds every once in a while. It's hard to tell because you can only hear it when in the basement next to the breaker ~30 feet away max. I'll maybe hear it twice a week if I'm down in the basement frequently.
I've been quick enough a few times that running over to the panel and popping breakers have narrowed it down this 20 amp beaker.
The breaker has been replaced.
PoCo haven't heard of this before (I asked since maybe that's how they send a signal to the energy saver relay?), outside of a failing breaker which we've ruled out.
We have not been using the baseboard nor the AC for ~ 6 months, so presumably it's not related to something starting.
Any thoughts?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

what brand of breaker is it? what brand of panel?

And im a little confused on your description.

Are you saying that a 20a circuit from the first meter feeds the second meter?

Or?

Perhaps you can post some pics

 

[MattT]

Maybe there's something else hooked up to the energy saver circuit? I doubt it'd be the first time someone did that.

Or maybe a fault on the condenser. Throw the disconnect for it to eliminate it as the source of the problem.

 

[kTHREE]

Breaker is Cooper/Eaton.
Panel is CH.
Correct. Only one panel. A 20 amp 2 pole circuit off the panel goes outside to a second meter, then returns and ties into my ac and baseboard.
You can't really see the wires in the panel, but I have checked that everything is positively affixed.

Prepare yourself for this mess, yes this is the way the panel came when I moved in, I had nothing to do with it.
The conduit on the top left goes to my second meter.
Disregard the yellow labeled energy saver wire. It's something I pulled just in case I add a baseboard to my office.

 

[walta]

What is this “energy saver” sounds like snake oil to me. My guess is you will lower your power bill if you disconnect the “energy saver”.


Walta

 

[Bert_]

What is this “energy saver” sounds like snake oil to me. My guess is you will lower your power bill if you disconnect the “energy saver”.


Walta

He has a second meter that is billed at a cheaper rate. You are usually allowed to run things like electric HVAC and water heaters through it. The utility will usually want to control at least the water heater so they can shed peak load.

Around here the second rate for electric heat is 4-5c/kw. Disconnecting that meter will make the heater and a/c about 2X as expensive to run...

 

[kTHREE]

What is this “energy saver” sounds like snake oil to me. My guess is you will lower your power bill if you disconnect the “energy saver”.
Walta

Not in the least. Its a huge money saver for us.
Like Bert_ mentioned, our main meter costs about 12c/kw and anything on the energy saver is 6c/kw. You can run heating/cooling/water heater only on this circuit.
The downside is during the summer during peak 5-9, on the hottest of days they shut it off. In the two years I've lived here this has happened 5 times... So it's not even a bother.

 

[kTHREE]

Maybe there's something else hooked up to the energy saver circuit? I doubt it'd be the first time someone did that.

Or maybe a fault on the condenser. Throw the disconnect for it to eliminate it as the source of the problem.

Now that i didn't think of. Dumb
I can easily disconnect the AC then the baseboard and see if either load (albeit not running) is causing it.
I'll disconnect this weekend and see if anything changes.

 

[American Locomotive]

Some of these load-shedding systems work by using power-line injection. The power company has a special generator that injects a high-frequency signal onto the AC mains. The load shedding device inside your house detects this signal and turns the power on/off to these devices. I think 5-10 seconds would be a typical duration for this signal.

More modern ones can use cellular or wifi networks.

 

[kTHREE]

Some of these load-shedding systems work by using power-line injection. The power company has a special generator that injects a high-frequency signal onto the AC mains. The load shedding device inside your house detects this signal and turns the power on/off to these devices. I think 5-10 seconds would be a typical duration for this signal.

That's why I inquired with my power company. Most people I've asked seem to think the same thing. Seems plausible but they (power company) outright said it doesn't happen/they haven't heard of it.

I don't know the form of communication they use to trigger the relay on the side of my house though, so maybe they just don't know or the people I'm talking to are a little slow.

I'm going to take all load off the incoming lines that the energy meter feeds this weekend and see if it still takes place, then add the AC, then baseboard.

 

[rlitman]

Some of these load-shedding systems work by using power-line injection. The power company has a special generator that injects a high-frequency signal onto the AC mains. The load shedding device inside your house detects this signal and turns the power on/off to these devices. I think 5-10 seconds would be a typical duration for this signal.

More modern ones can use cellular or wifi networks.

That's a really good point. It's usually 1050 Hz.
Here's an example to hear what it might sound like:

 

[MikeF2316]

We rented a basement apartment in a house that had a flat rate water heater, way back in the day. One night there was a loud buzzing from the electrical panel, loud enough to wake us up. Upon inspection the noise was coming down the electrical conduit into the panel. When I went outside. the noise got really loud because it was coming from a control relay mounted just below the weatherhead on just about every house in the neighbourhood!

 

[walta]

I thinking he may have something like this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076TP4TPX/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Total BS

If that wire is a second service the look like it is 12 gage that could not supply much power.

I cannot tell what the “energy saver” wires connect to.

Walta

 

[Bert_]

I thinking he may have something like this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076TP4TPX/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Total BS

If that wire is a second service the look like it is 12 gage that could not supply much power.

I cannot tell what the “energy saver” wires connect to.

Walta

Not even close. That is for power factor correction, which is basically a non issue since residential is never penalized for poor power factor like industrial stuff would be.

All the OP has is a second utility meter that gets billed cheaper than the normal rate. He also has a controller with a couple relays that allows the utility to turn off his heater or air conditioner for short periods during high load portions of the day.

It doesn't actually make stuff use less power or save energy. It just means he pays less for the electricity because he allows the utility to shed load during high usage parts of the day.

It is common in my area as well with REC's. They even sell 80 gal marathon water heaters to customers for like $200 if they put in the load control switch. 80gal is enough that nobody notices if the water heater gets turned off for a few hours. They have a second relay contact for electric heat but it's rare for them to turn it off, they mostly just control the water heaters.

The load controller that they use in my are uses radio control as far as I know. They usually require it to be mounted outside if you have a metal building because of issues getting the signal.

 

[dogdog]

Not in the least. Its a huge money saver for us.
Like Bert_ mentioned, our main meter costs about 12c/kw and anything on the energy saver is 6c/kw. You can run heating/cooling/water heater only on this circuit.
The downside is during the summer during peak 5-9, on the hottest of days they shut it off. In the two years I've lived here this has happened 5 times... So it's not even a bother.

Don't you pay a monthly charge for that "Energy Saver" meter as well... not sure if the saving would have offset that cost .... or are you saying you run a gazillion watt a month that makes the monthly insignificant....

 

[kTHREE]

I pay nothing for the second meter, just a reduced bill. Huh, I really thought these were more common. Most co-ops have this in MN, or some form of it.

 

[dogdog]

I pay nothing for the second meter, just a reduced bill. Huh, I really thought these were more common. Most co-ops have this in MN, or some form of it.

Nothing like that here in my area... you are either paying too much or way way too much...
either way extra meter, extra monthly everything here.... The account for each meter you have with this POCO here is either residential (too much), semi-commercial (way too much), or commercial (way way too much).. Either way, they charge monthly on each meter regardless of usage... that is basic monthly fee + usage fee+ that carrier charge for each KWH...

 

[mm08822]

Nothing like that here in my area... you are either paying too much or way way too much...
either way extra meter, extra monthly everything here.... The account for each meter you have with this POCO here is either residential (too much), semi-commercial (way too much), or commercial (way way too much).. Either way, they charge monthly on each meter regardless of usage... that is basic monthly fee + usage fee+ that carrier charge for each KWH...

It provides a net reduced cost for the monthly consumption of energy used by the electric hot water heater - lower cost/kwh and lower delivery cost.

Although it is not offered to new customers in my area any further (mostly ng), here is an excerpt from the POCO explaining two plans:

"Example 2
RS-OPWH–Residential Service with Off-Peak Water
Heating Special Provision “a”
Customers on this rate have electric water heaters and a separate meter, which
measures electricity used to heat water during off-peak hours (8 p.m. to 8 a.m. EST,
9 p.m. to 9 a.m. DST). The water heater measures only the kWh used to heat water
during off-peak hours. The regular (RS) meter measures all the kWh used. When
calculating bills, the kWh registered on the off-peak meter are subtracted from the
RS meter kWh. All off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Basic Generation Service
Charge* of 9.5436¢ when winter rates apply, and 9.7974¢ when summer rates
apply. In addition, all off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Delivery Charge of
3.5205¢ throughout the year. A monthly supplemental Customer Charge of $1.55
also is applied to these accounts. (This provision is no longer available and is
restricted to those locations where it is now installed.)
Example 3
RS-CTWH–Residential Service with Controlled Water
Heating Special Provision “b”
Customers who have electric storage type water heaters that meet company
specifications and are installed to company requirements, which restrict use of both
upper and lower elements to the hours of 11 p.m. to 4 p.m. EST (12 midnight to 5
p.m. DST), have a special meter to measure electricity used to heat water between
those hours. All off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Basic Generation Service
Charge* of 9.5436¢ when winter rates apply, and 9.7974¢ when summer rates
apply. In addition, all controlled water heating kWh are billed a Delivery Charge of
4.0815¢ throughout the year. A monthly supplemental Customer Charge of $1.55
also is applied to these accounts. (This provision is no longer available and is
restricted to those locations where it is now installed.)"

 

[MikeF2316]

It provides a net reduced cost for the monthly consumption of energy used by the electric hot water heater - lower cost/kwh and lower delivery cost.

Although it is not offered to new customers in my area any further (mostly ng), here is an excerpt from the POCO explaining two plans:

"Example 2
RS-OPWH–Residential Service with Off-Peak Water
Heating Special Provision “a”
Customers on this rate have electric water heaters and a separate meter, which
measures electricity used to heat water during off-peak hours (8 p.m. to 8 a.m. EST,
9 p.m. to 9 a.m. DST). The water heater measures only the kWh used to heat water
during off-peak hours. The regular (RS) meter measures all the kWh used. When
calculating bills, the kWh registered on the off-peak meter are subtracted from the
RS meter kWh. All off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Basic Generation Service
Charge* of 9.5436¢ when winter rates apply, and 9.7974¢ when summer rates
apply. In addition, all off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Delivery Charge of
3.5205¢ throughout the year. A monthly supplemental Customer Charge of $1.55
also is applied to these accounts. (This provision is no longer available and is
restricted to those locations where it is now installed.)
Example 3
RS-CTWH–Residential Service with Controlled Water
Heating Special Provision “b”
Customers who have electric storage type water heaters that meet company
specifications and are installed to company requirements, which restrict use of both
upper and lower elements to the hours of 11 p.m. to 4 p.m. EST (12 midnight to 5
p.m. DST), have a special meter to measure electricity used to heat water between
those hours. All off-peak water heating kWh are billed a Basic Generation Service
Charge* of 9.5436¢ when winter rates apply, and 9.7974¢ when summer rates
apply. In addition, all controlled water heating kWh are billed a Delivery Charge of
4.0815¢ throughout the year. A monthly supplemental Customer Charge of $1.55
also is applied to these accounts. (This provision is no longer available and is
restricted to those locations where it is now installed.)"

You have to love these power companies. They charge for their product. (power) They charge you to deliver it. They charge you for being a customer. And mine even has a charge for losses in the lines.

 

[American Locomotive]

Nothing like that here in my area... you are either paying too much or way way too much...
either way extra meter, extra monthly everything here.... The account for each meter you have with this POCO here is either residential (too much), semi-commercial (way too much), or commercial (way way too much).. Either way, they charge monthly on each meter regardless of usage... that is basic monthly fee + usage fee+ that carrier charge for each KWH...

You're not understanding this. It's a load shedding service offered by the POCO. They put two meters on your house. One meter is connected just to specific loads - usually air conditioning and/or an electric hot water heater. The other meter is connected to everything else.

The meter that's connected to your hot water heater has a relay the POCO can control and turn off when they need to shed peak load. This saves them a lot of money. In turn, when your water heater is enabled again, they give you a greatly reduced electric rate on that particular meter.

 

[mbear]

The electric co op I am on uses what is called " Load Management Devices " to control my A/C compressors during system peak demand . There is a small device mounted near the condenser disconnect and the T stat wiring runs through it . If the conditions warrant , the control center can send a signal over the distribution circuit to drop out the compressor for no more than 8 minutes per hour . This would reduce peak demand and save the co op from higher charges by their wholesale power provider . It's a complicated business folks .
Anyway , I'm not sure if they have ever utilized the technology in actual peak conditions , but they give me a $10 per month credit on each of my central A/C units year round .

 

[kTHREE]

So I've disconnected the baseboard heater and the condenser, so far so good. The meter is still hooked up and powered, just no load. I'll wait a week or two then add each back in.

 

[Viper98912]

Wow, what a hideous looking panel. If a pro did that, they should lose their license.

Maybe not related...

A few years ago, my dad had installed some LED bulbs or something and upon turning on the light, the breaker on that circuit started to go nuts with buzzing. When he replaced the breaker, it went away. We suspect it was something to do with the fact that it was just a really old breaker in an old panel. Nonetheless, I don't think this is the same thing, but there may be some type of interference signal coming through one of your connected machines that's causing the breaker to be unhappy.

 

[kTHREE]

Wow, what a hideous looking panel. If a pro did that, they should lose their license.

Standard spec house ******** jobs when looking at my neighbors panels.
You'd be amazed at how any of the wiring in this house passed inspection.

Hell, our entire house was built 90 degrees off. Our driveway was supposed to feed into the cul-de-sac we live on, instead it goes into the main road.
Apparently they built the foundation wrong (off 90 degrees and too close to the property line) and got a variance from the city after they realized the mistake.

On the plus side we have a big yard due to their error.

 

[kTHREE]

Update:
The energy saver circuit has been disconnected from a load (but the meter is still connected).
We also changed a bunch of light bulbs out to led and have noticed a slight flickering randomly on multiple circuits throughout the night, poco says any poor connections are more noticeable in LED lights. If that's true, we may have had this since we moved in 2 years ago.
Power company is coming out to take a look at their connections this week.
If they don't find anything we are going to call in a sparky to clean up the panel and try to hunt down the source of our issues.

 

[ripperd]

Update:
The energy saver circuit has been disconnected from a load (but the meter is still connected).
We also changed a bunch of light bulbs out to led and have noticed a slight flickering randomly on multiple circuits throughout the night, poco says any poor connections are more noticeable in LED lights. If that's true, we may have had this since we moved in 2 years ago.
Power company is coming out to take a look at their connections this week.
If they don't find anything we are going to call in a sparky to clean up the panel and try to hunt down the source of our issues.

You don't happen to have MVEC do you? We are in their territory, not using their saver program. And our LED's, when dimmed to a very low level, have some pretty random flashing/flickering that I attribute to their PLC (power-line-carrier) which is how they do meter reading.

 

[kTHREE]

We are! Go figure.
I wish ours just was noticable at low levels.
Our lights flickered so badly over Christmas it was like someone flipping a switch off and on. No dimming just straight off/on.
This is what prompted the call to mvec.

 

[ripperd]

Ah yeah. If it is happening at full brightness definitely something else is going on.

Other than that flickering on our LEDs when near minimum brightness our power with MVEC has been solid. The saver stuff is a great deal, I had to really crunch the numbers when I was looking at heating the garage. I still ended up going natural gas but man the cheap initial outlay for electric was compelling at first.