Energy Saver

[nafterclifen]

Does anyone have any experience with an energy management system or energy saver device? They claim to reduce your monthly electric usage by at least 8% and offer other benefits such as surge protection. They're wired into a panel just like any other circuit and they require no maintenance or configuration. Below are two examples...

https://basicpower.co
http://www.electricsaver1200.com

Savings is often upwards of 20% but being conservation, I did a quick calculation assuming a 10% savings. I would save approximately $385 per year. Since the purchase price is about $900, I would not break even until year 3.

What say you GJ-er's?

 

[Jlarson]

Don't waste your money, they are bs. You are billed for kilowatt hours, true power used that voodoo box isn't going to change that.

Residential customers aren't billed for poor power factor so it's does no good to install pf correction.

If you want surge protection get a real TVSS. The only reason they mention it is that is how many of those units get their UL listing, as a TVSS unit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Geez. Not only is that site poorly done and hard to read, its a bunch of bull.

The only device that will save u money is one that shuts off an appliance such as the units that my PoCo installs on air conditioners. These units cycle the air conditioner.

The device on this website claims that it recycles "kilowatts" back into the motor. LMFAO

 

[rlitman]

Don't waste your money, they are bs. You are billed for kilowatt hours, true power used that voodoo box isn't going to change that.

Residential customers aren't billed for poor power factor so it's does no good to install pf correction.

If you want surge protection get a real TVSS. The only reason they mention it is that is how many of those units get their UL listing, as a TVSS unit.

+1 to all of this.

Anyway, residential power rarely needs correction. It might have helped with reactive power a few decades ago (though it would never have helped with your bill), but today's appliances have such good power factors that adding a device like this may actually make your power factor worse.

As you go more capacitive, you may actually increase harmonic distortion too.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Interesting. This was a scam going around five or ten years ago but I thought it died away - I haven't heard anything recently about it but I guess it's coming back.

 

[nafterclifen]

I has a brief conversation with the inventor and management of Basic Power this morning. They agreed that power factor correction is not need for residential use. However their equipment does offer other advantages such as harmonic distortion filtering that a lot of modern charging equipment, appliances and (LED) lighting put out due to their varying hertz. Protection against surge/lightning protection and power spikes is also included.

They agreed that there have been similar products released by companies in the past but that they were nothing more than capacitors and did not live up to their claims. They are guaranteeing at least a 11% savings or your money back.

It still is not clear to me how the device reduces usage though. As several of you have stated, you're billed on actual usage.

 

[justsam]

They are guaranteeing at least a 11% savings or your money back.

How would you ever validate this. Usage month to month is a variable, and many service providers use time of day billing. Just too many variables to ever determine if the 11% is real. Let alone the notion that consumers seldom follow up on such claims.

Virtually all modern electronics use non linear power converters of one type or another. Yes they can induce harmonic distortion but so what?

 

[cybrdyke]

RUN AWAY....
A few things...
Harmonic distortion filtering is not necessary on single phase 120v residential systems. And most of the things he listed, like LED's, dont have high harmonic distortion. Doubtful that he has the most current UL listing for his surge protection, either (UL1449 rev. 3). Did I mention that you should RUN AWAY??
CD

 

[nafterclifen]

They are guaranteeing at least a 11% savings or your money back.

How would you ever validate this. Usage month to month is a variable, and many service providers use time of day billing.

Your concerns are valid. I had the same thoughts. But my power company does not bill peak/non-peak usage.

I explained that I was not willing to shell out $900 and install a device to hopefully or theoretically see a gain. I asked if there was a pre-install assessment that could be done to quantify real usage and estimate savings in a real-world scenario. They mentioned that a TED system (http://www.theenergydetective.com/) could be used to montior usage but it alone is about $800.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok question for u engineer types on here that understand this better than i do(Im an electrician but dont have a full grasp on the electrical engineering side of things.)

How would it be possible for this device to save energy other than by turning appliances off? Is it by correcting the power factor(which obviously doesnt matter in a single phase residential service)?

 

[bczygan]

Try this:

 

[cybrdyke]

Your concerns are valid. I had the same thoughts. But my power company does not bill peak/non-peak usage.

I explained that I was not willing to shell out $900 and install a device to hopefully or theoretically see a gain. I asked if there was a pre-install assessment that could be done to quantify real usage and estimate savings in a real-world scenario. They mentioned that a TED system (http://www.theenergydetective.com/) could be used to montior usage but it alone is about $800.

Are you just messin' with those guys or are you still seriously considering this snake oil?
IT DOES NOT WORK!! IT'S A SCAM!!

 

[cybrdyke]

Ok question for u engineer types on here that understand this better than i do(Im an electrician but dont have a full grasp on the electrical engineering side of things.)

How would it be possible for this device to save energy other than by turning appliances off? Is it by correcting the power factor(which obviously doesnt matter in a single phase residential service)?

These "devices" have been around for 20 years. There are several ways to separate people from their money...
1) Power factor correction, which doesn't apply in residential. Here, they use a bank of capacitors.
2) Voltage reducers...takes your 120v supply and runs it down to 90 or 100v. Then claim an energy reduction. Problems arise from appliances, tools, etc running on lower than recommended voltage (but that's not in the guarantee). These days, any device that's electronic, like T8 or LED lighting, it wont matter anyway because they auto-correct for voltage drops.
3) Change the phase angle 90 degrees. Also doesnt work because any meter from the last 50 years wont change readings because of this.

CD

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The only device Ive seen that can reduce usage is a device like my local PoCo uses:

http://www.mid.org/yourhome/programs/step.html

 

[nafterclifen]

These "devices" have been around for 20 years.

I've heard that these types of devices have come and gone and most have failed. This is the first that I am trying to learning about them.

1) Power factor correction, which doesn't apply in residential. Here, they use a bank of capacitors.

Agreed.

2) Voltage reducers...takes your 120v supply and runs it down to 90 or 100v. Then claim an energy reduction. Problems arise from appliances, tools, etc running on lower than recommended voltage (but that's not in the guarantee). These days, any device that's electronic, like T8 or LED lighting, it wont matter anyway because they auto-correct for voltage drops.

The BPU unit is wired in parallel, just like any other circuit, so correct me if I'm wrong but it wouldn't reduce voltage.

3) Change the phase angle 90 degrees. Also doesnt work because any meter from the last 50 years wont change readings because of this.

Device is installed after the meter so correct me if I'm wrong, altering the phase is not the approach at least with the BPU unit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How does it get wired into the panel? Breaker, bus bar....?

 

[nafterclifen]

Are you just messin' with those guys or are you still seriously considering this snake oil?
IT DOES NOT WORK!! IT'S A SCAM!!

Of course I'm skeptical. If they did everything that they said they do, all of the time, then they should be in every store and a line of people trying to buy them.

I'm trying to become educated enough to understand what they're doing and understand the reasons/situations in which they do/don't work. Explanations = knowldge = power.

 

[nafterclifen]

How does it get wired into the panel? Breaker, bus bar....?

Breaker

 

[nafterclifen]

Here are two pictures of the device...

 

[404]

Is that black bumpy stuff in the bottom potting compound to prevent one from stealing the "secrets"?

 

[Showkey]

They are guaranteeing at least a 11% savings or your money back.

How would you ever validate this. Usage month to month is a variable, and many service providers use time of day billing. Just too many variables to ever determine if the 11% is real. Let alone the notion that consumers seldom follow up on such claims.

Virtually all modern electronics use non linear power converters of one type or another. Yes they can induce harmonic distortion but so what?

It easy to validate :

You connect 10 of these miracle gadgets........that's 110% savings.....you saved so much you wait for the check to arrive from the power company because they owe you money

 

[nafterclifen]

Is that black bumpy stuff in the bottom potting compound to prevent one from stealing the "secrets"?

It is. I was not expecting that when I saw it. Unit was surprisingly heavy - 32 pounds.

 

[nafterclifen]

Is that black bumpy stuff in the bottom potting compound to prevent one from stealing the "secrets"?

In this video, they claim that "the epoxy helps get the noise out to the ground system." In the documentation that I just got, it states that a dedicated ground rod is required for the unit to operate correctly.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It is. I was not expecting that when I saw it. Unit was surprisingly heavy - 32 pounds.

Tell me u didnt actually purchase this snake oil box?

Do u have a pic of the inside with the wire pulled out of the way?

 

[Jlarson]

Interesting. This was a scam going around five or ten years ago but I thought it died away - I haven't heard anything recently about it but I guess it's coming back.

It never died just slowed for a bit, now there's a bunch of these snake oil peddlers starting up. They use fuzzy math, rip off legitimate data and edit it to fit their story and can't produce any third party test results from reputable labs.

 

[nafterclifen]

Tell me u didnt actually purchase this snake oil box?

Do u have a pic of the inside with the wire pulled out of the way?

Haha, snake oil.

No, I did not purchase one but I haven't ruled it out yet. I'm not going to buy something unless I am 100% sure. I still think it's too good to be true. If you have any hard facts or proof that this particular BPU device does not work, please do share. But wouldn't you have to know what's inside to accurate answer that? Please understand that I'm not trying to drag this thread out and cause a debate...I just want facts and proof. Or at least ammunition to challenge the manufacturer so that I can get the answers.

The video link that I posted shows the device connected, working and the inside of it. Below is a link to the 2:00 mark showing the inside.

 

[nafterclifen]

It never died just slowed for a bit, now there's a bunch of these snake oil peddlers starting up. They use fuzzy math, rip off legitimate data and edit it to fit their story and can't produce any third party test results from reputable labs.

Believe me when I say this...I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm looking to become educated and understand as much about these devices as possible, specifically the BPU device. So I ask you...if you have any "fuzzy math" or "illegitimate data" about this device or similar devices, please do share.

 

[ddawg16]

Ok question for u engineer types on here that understand this better than i do(Im an electrician but dont have a full grasp on the electrical engineering side of things.)

How would it be possible for this device to save energy other than by turning appliances off? Is it by correcting the power factor(which obviously doesnt matter in a single phase residential service)?

As noted above, PFC only really applies to commercial setups using large amounts of power. Typically I see specs requiring PFC on motors 15hp or larger. PF is usually only a problem for large inductive loads.

At the end of the day, PFC does not change how much energy is being used, it just helps the power company supply you more power.

In the house....it does nothing for total energy being used. NOTHING. And except for the fridge motor, dishwasher, clothes washer and the vacuum....all the loads are either purely resistive or go into a solid state switch supply....think CFL's all your wall wort's and AV stuff.

With those solid state PS's, the harmonics is all over the place. But, who cares. It is not having any effect on those switching supplies.

 

[Stuart in MN]

This article does a pretty good job of explaining why these things aren't very useful: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/powerfactor.html Here's another written by a guy in Australia, it's more technical but comes to the same conclusions: http://sound.westhost.com/lamps/power-savers.html

 

[cybrdyke]

I'm looking to become educated

Any CFL, T8, T5HO or T5 fluorescent or LED (basically any electronic lighting) has an electronic ballast or driver in it. It will have a voltage sensing unit inside it, that changes whatever voltage that is supplied to the correct required voltage. This means that any of these power saving devices will not affect the lighting product's energy consumption. It will still consume the same amount of watts, despite the "snake oil" box. I suspect the same is true with HVAC electronics and probably your entertainment center products as well.

 

[Jlarson]

I'm looking to become educated and understand as much about these devices as possible

Everyone has already told you what you need to know, you are billed for watts, these devices won't change that and as a residential customer you aren't dinged for poor PF so there is no savings there either.

So I ask you...if you have any "fuzzy math" or "illegitimate data" about this device or similar devices, please do share.

I'm not looking through every ad out there again but on company was taking graphs from a GE whitepaper and editing them and another was using incorrect formulas in their "test reports".

Ask the seller of this device you are so interested in for independent lab test results that prove the savings, not just some guys POCO bills for a few months or some customer testimony but real controlled lab tests with real test equipment, if it works that should be no problem right? Don't hold your breath.

 

[404]

Just Blotivating here:

If power factor is better, amps is lower, right? Copper wire has a higher resistance at higher temperature (I hope), so if less amps are drawn, house wire stays cooler, resistance is lower, so the whole system is more efficient?

This has no relationship to the power company billing for PF.

 

[rlitman]

Just Blotivating here:

If power factor is better, amps is lower, right? Copper wire has a higher resistance at higher temperature (I hope), so if less amps are drawn, house wire stays cooler, resistance is lower, so the whole system is more efficient?

This has no relationship to the power company billing for PF.

Not really. You're reducing heating of your service wire, but that is not reflected on your meter. PFC at the actual point of use (i.e. directly connected to the low power factor device) can reduce wire heating between the meter and the device, which can save you a small FRACTION of a percent. The savings from this are at best in pennies though.

 

[404]

Not really. You're reducing heating of your service wire, but that is not reflected on your meter. PFC at the actual point of use (i.e. directly connected to the low power factor device) can reduce wire heating between the meter and the device, which can save you a small FRACTION of a percent. The savings from this are at best in pennies though.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[Jlarson]

Losses like that are negligible in resi settings.

 

[justsam]

In this video, they claim that "the epoxy helps get the noise out to the ground system." In the documentation that I just got, it states that a dedicated ground rod is required for the unit to operate correctly.

I suspect this "dedicated ground" is the first of many "requirements" in order for it to work properly. Ultimately they will wear you out for all the requirements for it to operate properly.

Epoxy is a non-conductor. Not sure how it is going "help get the noise out to the ground system."

I would love for something like this to be real, but just seeing numbers on some clamp on meters shows me no proof.

 

[plow]

I think I remember the Kill-a-Watt device being sued for false claims. I haven't googled it to verify as I don't care one way or the other.

 

[rlitman]

I think I remember the Kill-a-Watt device being sued for false claims. I haven't googled it to verify as I don't care one way or the other.

Kill-a-watts are just power meters. And fairly good ones at that.

I have over 100kVAR of PFC filtration at work. It has its uses. But even with it switched off, the difference in our electric bill is negligible.

 

[DC73]

Here are two pictures of the device...

The label in the first photo says "Energy Reduction Unit".

It should say "Bank Account Reduction Unit". As said above: Run away.

If this was legit, we'd all be using one, volume sales would have the price under $100, and power companies would be pushing these because it's cheaper to reduce load than it is to build new power plants.

The supposed 100 MPG carburetor was more legit.

DC

 

[LS6 Tommy]

What a total load of ****. "Recycled energy storage". Yeh, riiiiiight. It's a capacitor farm.

Tommy