Engine valve and seat grinding..

[OldCarGuy]

My Sioux Valve Grinder # 645L and Portable Seat Grinder 1710S

Sioux made valve grinders since the early 1920's. A must have single use machine for any antique car enthusiast such as myself. In the early days, up until the 1970's and introduction of unleaded gasoline, the valves on cars needed resurfacing between 50,000 to 70,000 miles. And it was cheaper to grind the old valves rather than purchasing new.









After cleaning up the valves. The flat end is ground square to the stem. Then a small 45 degree chamfer is added flat end. Making for easier insertion in the head of block. But most important for truing the valve in the Sioux grinder head. Along with setting a stop making all valves the same length. Only old timer's know and understand this. I have read several poster's saying that they cannot get the valve to run truer than .005”. Saying that the three jaws in the work-head is not enough to hold the valve stem true. When in practice The back end of the work-head has a stop with a reverse taper. That center's the valve stem. And the three small jaws grabs 4” of 5” toward the valve head. And indeed makes for quick and accurate setup. Putting a test indicator the revolving valve reveals the TIR (Total Indicator Reading) of less than .001”.

This is a Sioux Portable Valve Seat Grinder. The kit contains the power unit, numerous grinding wheels, positioning shafts, and diamond wheel dresser. This tool in a must have for quick and accurate valve seat grinding of flat head engines. The seat can be resurfaced without removing the engine from the car. Being that most early cars were valve in block design this was a very popular tool to own. However it's still can be used in valve in head engines. But many home mechanics just drop the heads off at a machine shop for someone else to do all the valve work...

 

[i7083]

Cool stuff. I used to own a similar Sioux set-up. Ground a bunch of valves over the years.

 

[dnschmidt]

Sioux made great stuff. Long gone now, well I think the name has been whored out, but their stuff was top notch. I had one of their electric impact guns where you turned the back of the too to relocate the brushes to switch from tighten to loosen and several of their S-shaped drills. A couple of which I still have that were rebranded Milwaukee.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

My Sioux Valve Grinder # 645L and Portable Seat Grinder 1710S

Sioux made valve grinders since the early 1920's. A must have single use machine for any antique car enthusiast such as myself. In the early days, up until the 1970's and introduction of unleaded gasoline, the valves on cars needed resurfacing between 50,000 to 70,000 miles. And it was cheaper to grind the old valves rather than purchasing new.









After cleaning up the valves. The flat end is ground square to the stem. Then a small 45 degree chamfer is added flat end. Making for easier insertion in the head of block. But most important for truing the valve in the Sioux grinder head. Along with setting a stop making all valves the same length. Only old timer's know and understand this. I have read several poster's saying that they cannot get the valve to run truer than .005”. Saying that the three jaws in the work-head is not enough to hold the valve stem true. When in practice The back end of the work-head has a stop with a reverse taper. That center's the valve stem. And the three small jaws grabs 4” of 5” toward the valve head. And indeed makes for quick and accurate setup. Putting a test indicator the revolving valve reveals the TIR (Total Indicator Reading) of less than .001”.

This is a Sioux Portable Valve Seat Grinder. The kit contains the power unit, numerous grinding wheels, positioning shafts, and diamond wheel dresser. This tool in a must have for quick and accurate valve seat grinding of flat head engines. The seat can be resurfaced without removing the engine from the car. Being that most early cars were valve in block design this was a very popular tool to own. However it's still can be used in valve in head engines. But many home mechanics just drop the heads off at a machine shop for someone else to do all the valve work...

I have a Sioux grinder and (iirc) a Black and Decker seat grinder. I have never used either but plan on doing so in the future. Would you happen to have manuals for either? Not looking for hardcopies, just seeing if you might have PDF...

 

[NOEYEZ]

My Sioux Valve Grinder # 645L and Portable Seat Grinder 1710S

Sioux made valve grinders since the early 1920's. A must have single use machine for any antique car enthusiast such as myself. In the early days, up until the 1970's and introduction of unleaded gasoline, the valves on cars needed resurfacing between 50,000 to 70,000 miles. And it was cheaper to grind the old valves rather than purchasing new.









After cleaning up the valves. The flat end is ground square to the stem. Then a small 45 degree chamfer is added flat end. Making for easier insertion in the head of block. But most important for truing the valve in the Sioux grinder head. Along with setting a stop making all valves the same length. Only old timer's know and understand this. I have read several poster's saying that they cannot get the valve to run truer than .005”. Saying that the three jaws in the work-head is not enough to hold the valve stem true. When in practice The back end of the work-head has a stop with a reverse taper. That center's the valve stem. And the three small jaws grabs 4” of 5” toward the valve head. And indeed makes for quick and accurate setup. Putting a test indicator the revolving valve reveals the TIR (Total Indicator Reading) of less than .001”.

This is a Sioux Portable Valve Seat Grinder. The kit contains the power unit, numerous grinding wheels, positioning shafts, and diamond wheel dresser. This tool in a must have for quick and accurate valve seat grinding of flat head engines. The seat can be resurfaced without removing the engine from the car. Being that most early cars were valve in block design this was a very popular tool to own. However it's still can be used in valve in head engines. But many home mechanics just drop the heads off at a machine shop for someone else to do all the valve work...

I USED THE EXACT SAME MODELS AS YOU HAVE PICTURED HERE. I USE TO HAVE TO TEACH STUDENTS HOW TO USE THESE FROM 1980THRU 2007. WHEN NEWAY CAME OUT, IT BEAT THE HELL OUT OF THE GRIND...FANTASTIC PRODUCTS BUT TO DAMN EXPENSIVE.

 

[Steve_P]

In the 1980s, I worked in a shop that had a 1960s? B&D valve grinder, and also a seat grinder that used stones like shown in the OP. Once we got a Neway carbide seat cutter set, we never used the powered version with the stones again.

 

[txvwnut]

I have that same setup although I ditched the crappy ball bearing chuck for a collet chuck.

 

[LopezBart]

I used these exact tools in the early 70s in a high school small engines class. Nice deja vu...

 

[Packard V8]

Old school tools used by an old school guy can still produce old school results. If an owner is doing the work himself he can save money.

What we find is most times the OEM valve stems and guides are worn past specs. If the build is for a hobby car which only gets a few miles a summer, they can be reused, however the result will usually be more oil smoke on startup and decel.

Given the shop hours are the same, we replace the guides or insert bronze sleeves and install new valves. If the engine is to see highway miles, we install hard exhaust seats.

Cutting the top of the valve guides to accept positive valve stem seals will reduce oil consumption over the old umbrella seals.

jack vines

 

[gregs]

Have the same set-up. Dont use it as much as we used to. If you need supplies like stones or other items, Goodson Tools is the best place to get what you need for it.

 

[cannuck]

I have B&D Canada valve grinder ser. no. 149 and have used it for hundreds of engines over last 40 odd years. Dial up valve first to get true then chuck up in grinder - shimmed with aluminum foil if needed to get true. Have similarly done ALL seats with Neway cutters and wouldn't do it any other way. If anyone has a Sioux valve facer they would like to pass on, would gladly retire my B&D (flat drive belt issues).

 

[428PI]

Spent many an hour with those machines. Also could reground tips of rocker arms. Got to be careful with grinding tips of valves for one can go through hardness and than you're sol.

 

[Spareparts]

I have the Sioux that I am getting rid of, stone is good also the Diamond Cutter, the seat cutter is also good,
just needs new stones, mine came with a Snap-on box. Just getting to old to do it any longer and need to
clean up a lot of stuff so the family don't have to.

 

[NOEYEZ]

Old school tools used by an old school guy can still produce old school results. If an owner is doing the work himself he can save money.

What we find is most times the OEM valve stems and guides are worn past specs. If the build is for a hobby car which only gets a few miles a summer, they can be reused, however the result will usually be more oil smoke on startup and decel.

Given the shop hours are the same, we replace the guides or insert bronze sleeves and install new valves. If the engine is to see highway miles, we install hard exhaust seats.

Cutting the top of the valve guides to accept positive valve stem seals will reduce oil consumption over the old umbrella seals.

jack vines

DID YOU EVER KNURL THE VALVE GUIDES TO INSURE THEY WERE CONCENTRIC BEFORE CUTTING THE SEATS WITH THE STONES? JUST ASKING.....I AM QUITE AWARE OF THE PROPER WAY TO REPLACE THE GUIDES OR BRONZE SLEEVE THEM. JUST HAD TO MANY CUSTOMERS THAT DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY FOR A BEATER TO GO JUST AN EXTRA FEW THOUSAND MILES.

 

[KSJeff]

I have the Sioux that I am getting rid of, stone is good also the Diamond Cutter, the seat cutter is also good,
just needs new stones, mine came with a Snap-on box. Just getting to old to do it any longer and need to
clean up a lot of stuff so the family don't have to.

If you're just getting rid of it... I'll take it.

 

[428PI]

Cutting the top of the valve guides to accept positive valve stem seals will reduce oil consumption over the old umbrella seals

We did that with IH gas tractor heads.

DID YOU EVER KNURL THE VALVE GUIDES TO INSURE THEY WERE CONCENTRIC BEFORE CUTTING THE SEATS WITH THE STONES?

I had a set of guides knurled on my 428pi engine. Used extreme amounts of oil.

 

[wafrederick]

Sioux made great stuff. Long gone now, well I think the name has been whored out, but their stuff was top notch. I had one of their electric impact guns where you turned the back of the too to relocate the brushes to switch from tighten to loosen and several of their S-shaped drills. A couple of which I still have that were rebranded Milwaukee.

Sioux is still around,Snap On owns them

 

[vssjim]

Sioux is still around,Snap On owns them

Snap on bought Sioux Tools and moved them to Murphy NC. and a long time ago discontinued all valve equipment and many other Sioux tools and as far as I'm concerned Sioux Tools were way better made and heavy duty then and S-O made tools were or made now. I have some Sioux tools made in the 1980's before S-O buy out still like new and super heavy duty. The first S-O cordless 3/8 impact were really Sioux designed and made and sold under S-O badges on the trucks

 

[dnschmidt]

They may still be around but as far as I'm concerned in name only. Porter-Cable is still around (God help us!) but the current **** SBD is offering is nowhere near the quality of the original Porter-Cable which I felt was at the top of the food chain. Their routers, Tiger Saw, Circular Saws and Belt Sanders were industry standards. The Snap-On Sioux is the same situation.

 

[Jack_K]

I only recently got a valve refacer and I enjoy using it. I have already saved valves which would've otherwise been scrap.

I also have a pneumatic lapping tool which makes it a quick job. I just need a seat grinder now.


Suction cup had to be glued to valve due to it's condition and Chinese cups.

 

[finn]

Last I saw of ours at work it was on the fork lift headed to the dumpster, about 25 years ago, having been recently replaced by a Serdi machine.

Sadly, the corporate policy at the time was no scrap through the gates. Everything went to the yard for shredding.

 

[Jack_K]

Here's a manual for a thor refacer.

https://archive.org/details/TM5-4193/mode/1up

Last I saw of ours at work it was on the fork lift headed to the dumpster, about 25 years ago, having been recently replaced by a Serdi machine.

Sadly, the corporate policy at the time was no scrap through the gates. Everything went to the yard for shredding.

Did they make sure to follow the Department of the Army and the Air Force demolition instructions?

 

[finn]

Here's a manual for a thor refacer.

https://archive.org/details/TM5-4193/mode/1up




Did they make sure to follow the Department of the Army and the Air Force demolition instructions?

No, but after a bunch of supposedly scrapped experimental engines ended up In commerce, a member of the management team had to witness all experimental material entering the shredder.

 

[Packard V8]

Knurling the inside of worn guides

DID YOU EVER KNURL THE VALVE GUIDES TO INSURE THEY WERE CONCENTRIC BEFORE CUTTING THE SEATS WITH THE STONES? JUST ASKING.....I AM QUITE AWARE OF THE PROPER WAY TO REPLACE THE GUIDES OR BRONZE SLEEVE THEM. JUST HAD TO MANY CUSTOMERS THAT DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY FOR A BEATER TO GO JUST AN EXTRA FEW THOUSAND MILES.

Knurling and reaming worn valve guides is better than doing nothing, but only just.

We've made the decision no longer to patch worn out junk. Taken in context of the shop labor to pull the engine, disassemble, clean, machine, clean, reassemble, reinstall, the cost saving of leaving worn valves and guides in place is just not worth it.

jack vines

 

[finn]

Knurling the inside of worn guides

Knurling and reaming worn valve guides is better than doing nothing, but only just.

We've made the decision no longer to patch worn out junk. Taken in context of the shop labor to pull the engine, disassemble, clean, machine, clean, reassemble, reinstall, the cost saving of leaving worn valves and guides in place is just not worth it.

jack vines

Traditionally, we as an Oem, used to knurl guides on new engines. we got away from that because it was difficult to
clean the guides, resulting in premature wear issues.

We ended up going to full chrome and polish stems, though, because of a rash of stuck valves on product with plain guides shipped to body builder storage lots. The chassis might sit for several months and moisture would corrode the guides and flash chromed stems would stick. Interestingly, the problem first became evident when the piston rings were modified to clean up an oil consumption problem.

 

[2oolhound]

I'm wondering if anyone makes a 3 angle carbide cutter for these units. If thats feasible.

 

[finn]

I'm wondering if anyone makes a 3 angle carbide cutter for these units. If thats feasible.

Doubt it. They’re grinders, as in stones, not cutters like the larger, more ridgid stationary tools like the Serti, which are designed for carbide cutters.

 

[i7083]

TRW made an adjustable 3 angle cutting tool, but it was for use in a seat machine. (circa 1980)

 

[OldCarGuy]

I have a Sioux grinder and (iirc) a Black and Decker seat grinder. I have never used either but plan on doing so in the future. Would you happen to have manuals for either? Not looking for hardcopies, just seeing if you might have PDF...

SIOUX TOOLS 645 INSTRUCTIONS AND PARTS LIST Pdf Download

View and Download Sioux Tools 645 instructions and parts list online. 645 grinder pdf manual download.

www.manualslib.com

 

[Airmedic1]

The shop I worked at had a Sioux seat grinder and a Sioux valve grinder. I ground thousands and thousands of valves and seats in the 14 years I worked there. If the guides and seats were worn we would send them to the machine shop to be replaced. I always used a 1* interference fit and a multi-angle valve seat to put the seat in the middle of the valve. Some of the industrial engines I rebuilt ran for over 10,000 hours and a couple that I rebuilt in the mid eighties are still running today!