Engineering Question

[dcovey]

OK Guys,

I have another thread talking about this $&#ing garage I had built in Kentucky and the problems I'm going through with the new owner and the county planning office getting an OC.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52543

What I need to know now is what size laminate beam would I need to span 28 foot, carry a 20 pound load per foot minimum. I will support it on both ends with a adjustable steel support pole (what size?). I can not put any support in the middle as that is not acceptable to the owner.

So what hieght and width will I need?

By the way the the county planning administrator told me to go to Lowes and they would calculate it. This after telling me he would help, and after telling the new owner it would take a 16 inch beam.

Thanks

 

[gasgas17]

What is the beam holding up? A floor or a roof? Can you use a steel beam? What is the supported length of what it's holding up? For example: if the beam is running down the center of a house holding up floor joists that are 12 feet long on either side of the beam, the supported lenght would be 12 feet. Half of the span of each joist. The foundation supports the other half of the load.

 

[dcovey]

The beam will be holding up the roof.

I have enough room for an 8 inch beam above the garage door and that would put it down the center but it would have to be supported in some way other than a steel pole on the end as pole would be 2 feet out in the door opening. So I was thinking the beam could be offset approx 2 foot and mounted next to the inside door track and then supported on each end by an adjustable steel support pole. The beam length will be 28 foot and the rafters span 32 foot. If installed offset the supported length would be 14' and 18'.

Thanks

 

[Ord]

I would send all the drawings to a local truss company, and ask them if they can supply whatever beams are needed to bring it up to code. I expect that their engineers would know better than the building inspector what is actually needed.

I priced out a steel beam when I was getting mind designed, and found that it's not that much more expensive, and saves space. Maybe there is a steel supplier that can help you?

And finally, did the drawings that were given when the permit was issued show where this beam is supposed to be?

 

[Jason641]

20 Pounds per foot seems very low for a roof support beam, are you sure it isn't 20 PSF (Pounds per Square foot) load that they need it sized for? or is the 20 PLF the additional support it needs to bring it up to code?

Is there any way you could give us a sketch of where the beam is in relation to the footprint of the building and also label the direction of the roof trusses or rafters, the garage doors, etc... is there a finished ceiling in the garage?

 

[dcovey]

20 Pounds per foot seems very low for a roof support beam, are you sure it isn't 20 PSF (Pounds per Square foot) load that they need it sized for? or is the 20 PLF the additional support it needs to bring it up to code?

Is there any way you could give us a sketch of where the beam is in relation to the footprint of the building and also label the direction of the roof trusses or rafters, the garage doors, etc... is there a finished ceiling in the garage?

My bad they said they wanted it to support 20 lb per sq foot.
There is a finished ceiling.

This shows what I have and what I want to do. Another kink they threw in today was wanting me to make sure there was enough foundation for doing this.. I think there is 5 inchs of reinforced concrete.
Also, there is only 8 inches from the spring above the garage door to the ceiling, so anything larger than that will have to be offset.

What is not showing in the picture is a 2x6 lyin flat and another 2x6 nailed to it forming an L this is on top of the bottom cord and is where the 2x4 braces are attached.

Thanks for looking guys.

Dave

 

[brownfoot]

is this stick framed with 2x4 rafters? or is it a truss? engineered or site built
if a truss, do not see why you need a beam, if stick framed I would think the rafters need to be at least 2x6
the bottom chord is in tension, if assembled correctly and a truss with daigonals to the rafters

the L is what is called a "strongback" to help keep the ceiling joists at thr same level and straight, helps some if you finish the ceiling

 

[dcovey]

I don't know if this is any help or even if it meets code, but I have seen a carrying beam located above the ceiling. Then the ceiling is attached to the above beam. Again, I honestly don't know if this is acceptable or if it would help you in any way. Can you remodel or reinforce the rafters to meet truss specs ? From your drawing it appears their is no "room "above the ceiling, correct ?

Reinforcing the current rafters has crossed my mind and it is something I plan to ask if and when a contractor from the area will return my calls and emails. I have been persueing the beam idea only because I think it would be the quickest/easiest to do. Unless I would have to cut the floor to reinforce the foundation.

The rafters are on 16 inch centers and at this point using the attic to store anything isn't going to happen because of load concerns. Or if I get this thing done and the owner does something to cause it to fall in then it'e on him.

There is 8 inches above the garage door. That is why my drawing shows a beam offset. The off set would be approx 24 inches.

Thanks

 

[dcovey]

is this stick framed with 2x4 rafters? or is it a truss? engineered or site built
if a truss, do not see why you need a beam, if stick framed I would think the rafters need to be at least 2x6
the bottom chord is in tension, if assembled correctly and a truss with daigonals to the rafters

the L is what is called a "strongback" to help keep the ceiling joists at thr same level and straight, helps some if you finish the ceiling

This is a stick built everything walls and ceiling is on 16 inch centers. The upper cord (rafters) are 2x4 and the bracing from the bottom cord to the rafter is also 2x4. The bottom cord is 2x6x16' spliced to make a 32 ft cord. He had originally used a 2x6x4' to gusset the splice. I had him add a 2x6x8 on the back side of every other bottom cord where there was room.

The reason I need a beam is the county code people suggested it. They said the framing did not meet code. And naturally since they are in control of the required approvals they are in control of what I must do.

I can fix this any way I want as long as it passes code. I am just of the opinion at this time that a simple beam supported on each end under the ceiling would be the best and least expensive way to pass code, maybe even if I have to cut the concrete and add some footing where the support poles would be. Currently about 5 inches of rebar reinforced concrete.

The next quickest least expensive way would be to tear all the sheet rock out of the ceiling, move the electrical, and rebuild/reinforce the rafters.

What the owners lawyer sent me was a bid to completely remove the roof, drywall, electrical, and siding. Then rebuild everything back using trusses (as should have been used in the first place). That estimate was for $15,500.00.

The garage appraised for $10,000.00 when I sold the house to the guy, although I had twice that much in it.

Thanks for the help.

 

[kmacht]

I can't help you with the calcuations but did want to ask you why you are still working with the owner on this. I am leary of anyone whos first response is to go hire a lawyer to settle a dispute. What makes you think that once you put this beam in that they new owner isn't going to still try and sue you? Maybe this time he will want proof of how much concret is in the slab or doesn't like the finish work on the drywall, etc. My only suggestion is to make sure you get something in writing that states after you complete x that you are free and clear of all other claims against you or the house.

Keith

 

[dcovey]

I can't help you with the calcuations but did want to ask you why you are still working with the owner on this. I am leary of anyone whos first response is to go hire a lawyer to settle a dispute. What makes you think that once you put this beam in that they new owner isn't going to still try and sue you? Maybe this time he will want proof of how much concret is in the slab or doesn't like the finish work on the drywall, etc. My only suggestion is to make sure you get something in writing that states after you complete x that you are free and clear of all other claims against you or the house.

Keith

My main reason for working with the owner is two fold.

1st I decided after talking to lawyers myself that it would be cheaper to just fix the thing and then go after the original builder to get reimbursed. If I don't get my money back then making his life miserable will be my reward. That is if I can find a way to fix it within reason.

2nd. I think of it as an honor thing. I sold him the house and naturally I didn't know of this problem or it would have been taken care of before selling. I just think it is the right thing to do, and will work with him as long as he will work with me.

I will get something in writting "before" I lay out a dime. He will approve of the repair in writting and I will put the money in some form of account to be drawn on for the purpose of this only, or I will disperse of the funds directly to the contractor after he approves.

By the way, I drove 2200 miles round trip to stand face to face with the guy and told him he was wrong in the way he went about approaching me about this.
I also pretty much dared him to sue as my lawyer has told me he would lose. Problem is the lawyer would cost as much as making the repair and if I did lose I would have twice the expense..

Thanks

 

[gasgas17]

You can't offset the beam as it will not be supporting one side of the ceiling joists. It would have to be installed directly under the joint in the ceiling joists. I think a better fix for your problem is to have an engineer design a method to reinforce the existing rafters and ceiling joists into real trusses with plywood gusset plates installed with construction adhesive and nails. We used to make them all the time in trade school altough they no longer meet code up here unless you have a letter from an engineer. An engineer will be your friend in this matter and I don't think it would cost you very much money for one either.

 

[dcovey]

You can't offset the beam as it will not be supporting one side of the ceiling joists. It would have to be installed directly under the joint in the ceiling joists. I think a better fix for your problem is to have an engineer design a method to reinforce the existing rafters and ceiling joists into real trusses with plywood gusset plates installed with construction adhesive and nails. We used to make them all the time in trade school altough they no longer meet code up here unless you have a letter from an engineer. An engineer will be your friend in this matter and I don't think it would cost you very much money for one either.

Yeah, the more I think about it doing some sort of reinforcement in the rafters seems the better way to go. I'm just trying to figure a way to keep from taking the drywall down from the ceiling.

Although none of the people I have talked to so far have mentioned the beam not supporting both sides. Obviously it would have to support more load from one side than the other. Also, I figure additional bracing from the long side would need to be installed to add more of that load directly to the beam.

Thanks

 

[gasgas17]

You may not have to remove any drywall. If the building is 32 feet wide your attic should be fairly tall and enable someone to work up there.

 

[dcovey]

You may not have to remove any drywall. If the building is 32 feet wide your attic should be fairly tall and enable someone to work up there.

Yes, it's pretty tall in the center 4-6/12 pitch roof. Where the access to the attic is wouldn't allow any length lumber to be passed through. So I'm thinking some access would have to be made to allow work.

 

[dcovey]

Cut ALL your lumber to length below, cut ALL your gussets below. Take an air hammer with coated nails and construction adhesive up into the attic and covert them suckers into trusses. Two good men could do all that in a day or two at the longest.

I'm in agreement.

I have been trying for a week to get someone from the area to talk to me and give me an estimate..
So far I have contacted two different contractors and they haven't returned my calls or emails.
The guy who bought the house wont send me the names and numbers of the contractors he got to give him his estimates.
The County code people are mad at me because I guess I've asked to many questions or want explanations. Their latest response was to hire a contractor and then after he finishes they will check to make sure it meets code. Of course the contractor is the issue right now.

I'm considering taking whatever time I need and go to Kentucky and doing it myself.. If I could figure out what to do. I don't want to live there or spend the next 6 months trying to please the code poeple.

 

[hidollartoys]

OK Guys,

I have another thread talking about this $&#ing garage I had built in Kentucky and the problems I'm going through with the new owner and the county planning office getting an OC.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52543

What I need to know now is what size laminate beam would I need to span 28 foot, carry a 20 pound load per foot minimum. I will support it on both ends with a adjustable steel support pole (what size?). I can not put any support in the middle as that is not acceptable to the owner.



So what hieght and width will I need?

By the way the the county planning administrator told me to go to Lowes and they would calculate it. This after telling me he would help, and after telling the new owner it would take a 16 inch beam.

Thanks

According to your drawing.... unless this beam is in the gable end there is no need for it unless it is there to support a center beam that runs parallel to and below the ridge board. What are you trying to accomplish with this beam? is it there to act as a door header in the gable end?

I am a contractor and would like to help you with good info.

 

[gasgas17]

He is trying to support the ceiling load more than anything. There is a joint in all the ceiling joists running down the center of the garage with no support under the joint. His best bet is to engineer the existing rafters and ceiling joists into an acceptable truss.

 

[hidollartoys]

He is trying to support the ceiling load more than anything. There is a joint in all the ceiling joists running down the center of the garage with no support under the joint. His best bet is to engineer the existing rafters and ceiling joists into an acceptable truss.

If he goes that direction he will need a stamped drawing or letter form a structural engineer specifying the fix. He is better off and money ahead if he chooses a conventional method of repair. His center beam idea is the most direct but will require the LAM beam supplier to do the calcs. This is usually at no cost. His 8" max height should not be a problem....the beam can be wider to compensate for the height to a point (depends on beam manufacturer). He wll have to "let in" the beam at each end to get the load on the footer or he will have to saw the floor and pour a pier. No matter what choice he chooses this is a problem where all options should be weighed and priced. There is no real "easy" fix. The first place that I would start is the codes agency and seek their recommendations. I understand that he is having issues with these folks but he should approach them in a way that will produce a win/win situation for all parties. Confrontation is NOT the answer. He will need to physically go there and converse with them to find a solution. He needs to build a relationship with them. He stated this is a matter of pride or such. He should swollow some and seek there help. His fix should take the new owner's wishes into consideration but there is only so much that can be done.

Just me 2 cents.

 

[dcovey]

If he goes that direction he will need a stamped drawing or letter form a structural engineer specifying the fix. He is better off and money ahead if he chooses a conventional method of repair. His center beam idea is the most direct but will require the LAM beam supplier to do the calcs. This is usually at no cost. His 8" max height should not be a problem....the beam can be wider to compensate for the height to a point (depends on beam manufacturer). He wll have to "let in" the beam at each end to get the load on the footer or he will have to saw the floor and pour a pier. No matter what choice he chooses this is a problem where all options should be weighed and priced. There is no real "easy" fix. The first place that I would start is the codes agency and seek their recommendations. I understand that he is having issues with these folks but he should approach them in a way that will produce a win/win situation for all parties. Confrontation is NOT the answer. He will need to physically go there and converse with them to find a solution. He needs to build a relationship with them. He stated this is a matter of pride or such. He should swollow some and seek there help. His fix should take the new owner's wishes into consideration but there is only so much that can be done.

Just me 2 cents.

Hidollartoys,

I have talked to LAM suppliers and they recommend a 4ply x 16 to support the 20 psf load the code people want. I haven't even talked about price to them as I am still trying to figure the best/easiest way to fix it. I didn't even ask about a wider beam to go above the door (8" max) as I thought the beam would sag in the middle under it's own weight.

I assume "let in" means placing the load directly over the bottom plate in the wall?

I called and left a message with the guy that poured the concrete to find out how thick the concrete is and if there are footers. I think it's built on a slab and there may not be footers or if there are they are pretty shallow. I would then have to saw and put a pier in the slab, correct?

I have spoken with the codes people, I was talking with the administrator and he just passed me off to his assistant a couple of days ago. It was his attitude that set me off. My attitude started because I could call them 3-4 times a day and they were never in the office and they have yet to return a call. Email is the best I had going but they would never answer a question directly. When I did get some sort of an answer it was criptic at best and just led to more questions.

I have to add this. When I called and they were taking another call, I would leave my number and ask the sec to have them call me. After 30 minutes or so I would call back, this time they were out of the office. Why couldn't they return my call before they left? This was multiple times not just once. Again, they never once returned a call.

What is the conventionable method of repair you are talking about? This is what I have been tryng to find out from the start, some way to do this.

What would be your estimate of time and materials (rough) since I can't get a contractor in Ky. to give me one?

Thanks

 

[gasgas17]

If he goes that direction he will need a stamped drawing or letter form a structural engineer specifying the fix. He is better off and money ahead if he chooses a conventional method of repair. His center beam idea is the most direct but will require the LAM beam supplier to do the calcs. This is usually at no cost. His 8" max height should not be a problem....the beam can be wider to compensate for the height to a point (depends on beam manufacturer). He wll have to "let in" the beam at each end to get the load on the footer or he will have to saw the floor and pour a pier. No matter what choice he chooses this is a problem where all options should be weighed and priced. There is no real "easy" fix. The first place that I would start is the codes agency and seek their recommendations. I understand that he is having issues with these folks but he should approach them in a way that will produce a win/win situation for all parties. Confrontation is NOT the answer. He will need to physically go there and converse with them to find a solution. He needs to build a relationship with them. He stated this is a matter of pride or such. He should swollow some and seek there help. His fix should take the new owner's wishes into consideration but there is only so much that can be done.

Just me 2 cents.

The whole problem with the beam is that it won't be in the middle. He would need to place a beam directly under the joint in the ceiling joists. That would place the support in the overhead door opening. This is why he needs to go with the conversion to a truss. I don't see it being any more money either way. I have an engineer here that I use now and then that would charge me 200.00 for something like this. After that it's a sheet of plywood for gussets and some nails and glue.

 

[dcovey]

The whole problem with the beam is that it won't be in the middle. He would need to place a beam directly under the joint in the ceiling joists. That would place the support in the overhead door opening. This is why he needs to go with the conversion to a truss. I don't see it being any more money either way. I have an engineer here that I use now and then that would charge me 200.00 for something like this. After that it's a sheet of plywood for gussets and some nails and glue.

Could a truss company design something to turn theses rafters into trusses, and then provide plans? Or should any contractor know enough to do what needs to be done?

The reason I ask is because this will have to be done in Kentucky and I will have to use someone from there. If I can get someone..

1969..

The beam would have to be offset roughly 2 foot. It would pass right beside the door track.

I just talked to the guy that poured the concrete. He said it was a monolithic slab. It is 12-16 inches deep and 16 wide at the outer perimeter. He said it should hold whatever I wanted to put on it. He is also having a contractor he knows call me so with the ideas and information I have from you guy's at least I have some idea of what to ask for.

Thanks

 

[DEnd]

Can you not check with an engineer and verify with absolute certainty that moving the beam over 2' would or would not pass code ? The way in which you have the bottom cords tied together, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't pass code.

It won't pass code as is now. Spliced joints like that need an engineers stamp. Since the county is questioning the rafter design then there is not one with them on file.

The thing to do is take detailed measurements of the rafters, including material size, building width, and roof slope, bracing placement, etc... Also find a grade stamp for the lumber used. Send all of these to a structural engineer (he can be local to you, being in KY isn't necessary) along with the roof load requirements, and he/she can design the fix you need. Then you'll just have to find a KY contractor to do the work.

 

[indy 05' pw]

If you sold the house, didn't the buyers have a home inspection done prior to the sale? If so have them go after the inspectors.

 

[BigEd]

I saw something similar recently.

The builder used three laminated beams approx. 2 1/2" x 10" x 24' and two 24'
steel plates and sandwiched the steel plates between the laminated beams, holding everything together with several bolts.

I remember that he pre-cut several holes in the plates for the bolts and a few for electrical pass-thru.

Just a thought, but I'm not an engineer.

 

[dcovey]

It won't pass code as is now. Spliced joints like that need an engineers stamp. Since the county is questioning the rafter design then there is not one with them on file.

The thing to do is take detailed measurements of the rafters, including material size, building width, and roof slope, bracing placement, etc... Also find a grade stamp for the lumber used. Send all of these to a structural engineer (he can be local to you, being in KY isn't necessary) along with the roof load requirements, and he/she can design the fix you need. Then you'll just have to find a KY contractor to do the work.

DEnd,

I wasn't aware of the joints needing a stamp..This is why I ask these questions. I learned something. Also, didn't know I could get an engineer from here in Texas and use that to do the job in Kentucky, something else I learned. I'll work on it from that angle. Thanks..

1969,

That was my thinking. Take a 2x? and lay it flat it will bow. Stand it on end and it doesn't (or at least not as much).

indy 05' pw,

The buyer did not have a home inspection done, although it was in the contract (10 days for appraisal and inspection). When I originally heard from my realtor that the inspectors didn't pass the garage, that was who I thought she was talking about. Then I found out it was the county code people.

Also, the lawyer I talked to said that would be one of my lines of defense if it came down to it.

BigEd,

Thanks, That's another way to skin this cat. Although at some point I would think weight would be a factor with the beam idea.

I'm still waiting on contact from "any" contractor from the area. I have made several contacts and the owner said he was calling in a contractor he already had out there. The county code people said they wanted resolution on this pretty quick or they were going to start fining the homeowner. You would think he would be showing a little hustle. Unless he's thinking he can pass the fine on to me.



Thanks

 

[gasgas17]

And you never know, an engineer may say that it is fine as is with no modification. Or at least with very little modification. Best of luck.

 

[RPH]

Once again guy's check out litesteelbeams.com. New product from the Aussies that does not require a crane to install. it's made just for this purpose.
http://litesteelbeam.com/