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Entire Electrical Circuit Stopped Working

FarmerPete

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So I have an electrical dillema. Power to my 3-seasons room completely died. I get nothing from every switch/plug in the room with my no-contact voltage detector. The feeder wire for the room comes out of my subpanel in my garage, goes into the basement, along the floor, and then ultimately under the 3-season room. Using my non-contact voltage reader, it's beeping along the entire cable in the basement. I haven't pulled any of the outlets to double check connections or use the voltage detector inside the box. I guess I pretty quickly assumed something cut the wire.

The 3-seasons room is elevated maybe a foot or so off the dirt. There is no access to the underside. Two years ago, when the deck was replaced, I had a company spray foam the bottom of the 3-seasons room with foam insulation. Now that the deck is installed, the only way to possibly access under this room is to some how get under the deck, (very tight) and then cut a hole in the wood that protects the bottom of the 3-seasons room to crawl through. The only other way would be to cut a hole in the floor. This would obviously be bad for the floor and the spray foam insulation. The floor is vinyl that was installed ~3 years ago. It's one giant piece for the entire room. (11x20').

So my guess is that something got under there and nibbled on a cable. We've had chipmunks and cats get under there before. When they replaced the deck, the covered up the main entrance under there, but you'll never keep chipmunks/mice/etc out.

So how do you fix this? I am guessing that I could grab the feeder and junction it off. I could probably get it to one of the outlets easily enough. Perhaps I'm wrong, but my guess is that if I can restore power to a single outlet, it would probably bring the entire circuit alive. The problem is, somewhere under my room, there is a potentially broken wire. I can't imagine that leaving that there is a wise idea, especially if by circumventing it, I now get the other side of the wire hot. I really don't want to cause a fire.

I've done a lot of electrical, all of which passed inspection, but the vast majority of that was done when I had my garage down to the studs. I've never had to deal with doing stuff behind walls/under floors so much. I really hate to hire an electrician, especially if they are just going to end up wanting to destroy my floor. If my floor has to be destroyed, I would much rather do it myself. At least then I can spend the money I saved on fixing it.

Thoughts?
 
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Shiftless

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I don't know the general level of finish work you have in that part of your house, but if I were you, before ripping out all that good looking new work, I would consider disconnecting the wiring from the sub panel and then disconnecting the feed to the first receptacle in your room. That would fully isolate the presumably chewed through cable under the floor.
Then run a new cable from your sub panel over to one of the receptacles in the chain. You could perhaps use wiremold surface mounted raceway. Or tuck armored cable behind a new piece of trim.

JK just posted something more obvious. Do you have a tripped or faulty GFCI in the circuit?
 
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acer66

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like jkwilson said, easy things first, start with the box the power most likely comes in and check if there is power in there and then the next one and so forth before tearing the floors up.

If you have power and it still does not work you could also have an open ground,
then you might need a contact tester.
 

Shiftless

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A good tester to start with would be one of those plug in types with the 3 lights.

acer: Just to be clear to all of the readers, the term open ground as you are using it means the white wire, right?
 

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FarmerPete

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I've used the plug-in type tester, and it comes back completely dead. No lights. I guess it sounds like I'll need to open up each socket and see what's coming in to them. Maybe then I'll be able to figure out what's going on in the wall/floor. Certainly if I can find where the dead spot is, I may be able to isolate it. Right now it's just a big mystery of where any of the wires go. The room has 5-6 outlets, a ceiling fan, and an exhaust fan (room used to have a hot tub in it. Refinishing the floor was partially because the hot tub messed it up. All of the wiring for the hot tub has been removed.) No GFCI outlets. Probably should have had some with the hot tub so close, but there aren't.
 

CoogarXR

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Probably common sense, but I'll say it anyway just in case this thread gets picked up on a google search someday-

Make sure you leave the breaker off until you find/fix the problem. Wherever that circuit opened up could arc and cause a fire.
 

Git

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I recently was troubleshooting an electrical problem and when I pulled the outlet out of the box I found that one of the neutral wires was broken right at the point where the insulation was removed for the wire nut

So to start, I would check the outlet that is closest to your panel. Pull the outlet out of the box, check the wires and check for voltage

Another point of failure is when the lazy electricians use the 'back stab' style connection instead of using the screws on the side of the outlet
 

bzinsky

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it is highly unlikely a rodent chewed through your wire

find the first outlet, take it out, and check for voltage, likely just disconnected
 
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FarmerPete

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Maybe it's worth mentioning that we've heard scratching in the general area before. Everyone we've called to try and get rid of the pests says they can't deal with chipmunks. I've killed a dozen of them over the last couple years with my "bucket-o-death" (5 gallon bucket filled 1/3rd with water and sunflower seeds covering the top), but they keep coming back. Before they sealed up the entrance, raccoons would get under there, as did a cat apparently, but the cat died. /sigh...I'm really wishing the builders had built a slab right about now. :)
 

CNGsaves

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^ ^ ^ Sounding more and more like rodent damage.

Time to get dirty and get down there. Put in steel conduit of some sort so this problem can't ever happen again !! ;)
 

nadogail

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IMHO, Being an old fat mani would avoid trying to crawl into a confined space looking for damaged wiring.

As posted in #3, I would try to isolate and abandon the damaged cable then rig a Jumper to bypass the problem.

I once repaired a similar problem by replacing a broken receptacle (outlet). I stumbled across it by dumb luck.
 

bzinsky

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no way, I know they are capable of it if they are really motivated, but do you guys really think a rodent is going to chew through solid copper wire...... Maybe chew the insulation off.

Couple that with the fact that he didn't even check inside the outlets.

The only thing he or we know, is that the wire is live after the panel and the outlets don't work.

There's like a 99% chance it's not rodents.

I'll eat my words if you post a picture of chewed wire.
 

Shiftless

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no way, I know they are capable of it if they are really motivated, but do you guys really think a rodent is going to chew through solid copper wire...... Maybe chew the insulation off.

Couple that with the fact that he didn't even check inside the outlets.

The only thing he or we know, is that the wire is live after the panel and the outlets don't work.

There's like a 99% chance it's not rodents.

I'll eat my words if you post a picture of chewed wire.

I know it wasn't NM cable and it wasn't solid, but 2 years ago part of my low voltage landscape lights went dead. Turned out to be gophers had chewed completely through the insulation and one conductor of the 12 ga. stranded landscape lighting wire that had been buried about 3 inches deep.
When I buried a new wire, I put it into gray plastic conduit. Let the little bastards try to chew through that! :D
 
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BillK

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I just want to add that I personally do not trust the non contact voltage detectors very much.

I would have to start at the breaker with a "real" voltmeter and work from there. I have had breakers fail both at home and at the shop and would allow some voltage through but not enough. The only way you will find that is with a real voltmeter.

Just another opinion,
 

wyliesdiesels

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Definite possibility of a failed "back-stabbed" outlet. If the push-in terminals were used, apmost guaranteed theres a failed connection at one of the outlets.

The first thing i would do here is check the outlets. Go to the outlet that is closest to the panel and pull it out of the box(with the breaker off of course). Check the connections.
 
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zmaxmotorsports

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I recently was troubleshooting an electrical problem and when I pulled the outlet out of the box I found that one of the neutral wires was broken right at the point where the insulation was removed for the wire nut

So to start, I would check the outlet that is closest to your panel. Pull the outlet out of the box, check the wires and check for voltage

Another point of failure is when the lazy electricians use the 'back stab' style connection instead of using the screws on the side of the outlet

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

matt_i

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Also, just to say, if the outlets are not "pigtailed" and instead the circuit is running thru the break-off tab(s) on the side(s) of an outlet, *those* can burn off under load and cause the open. However, there would be one outlet with a top or bottom still powered up...
 

CJ7VFR

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I know this sounds dumb, but did you check the breaker for the circuit to see if it has tripped?
I didn't see any mention of checking that first, unless I missed it.

Like my dad always says, start with the "dumb guy stuff" first!

Jim
 
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FarmerPete

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GFCI anywhere in the circuit?

Any idea where the first junction is in the room?

So, I figured out the problem, <FacePalm> In the corner of the room, half obscured by some toys was an outlet. That outlet was itself obscured by two of those plastic outlet covers. Under the outlet covers was the familiar GFCI buttons. Click. Fixed. Ugghh. The power was off to that room for 4-5 months, and all it took was a single button click.

Thanks guys for the advice. It certainly was helpful. Sorry to waste your time with such a dumb problem. And credit goes to jkwilson for being the first to suggest it. :)
 

CoogarXR

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LOL! Should we add a link from the "D'oh" thread?
 
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nadogail

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OP, congratulations on having the courage to admit you are like most of the rest of us, just getting lucky once in a while.
 
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FarmerPete

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Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that it was such a minor thing. I'm just pissed at myself for not taking the time to look at it in the fall. As you can imagine, we don't use the room much in the winter, but having what I thought was a fairly complex electrical problem hanging over my head for the last few months isn't the most pleasant thing.
 

Bigbandguy

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My wife once complained that her bathroom outlet was out (normal outlet, older house) no breakers were tripped. I looked all over hell and gone for the problem. Then called an electrician and HE looked... still nada.... then realized that the downstairs bathroom was also out and IT had a GFCI. Yep... same thing. Builder had downstairs bath, back porch, and both upstairs baths on ONE GFCI. I think the code has changed since then.
 

Chukster

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Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that it was such a minor thing. I'm just pissed at myself for not taking the time to look at it in the fall. As you can imagine, we don't use the room much in the winter, but having what I thought was a fairly complex electrical problem hanging over my head for the last few months isn't the most pleasant thing.

Don't worry about it man. You know how people talk about looking for something and they say 'It was in the last place I looked!' (Well, of course it's the last place you looked. That's where you stopped looking you numskull!)(What they really should say is 'It wasn't in the first place, or the 2nd, or the 3rd...')

Same thing for troubleshooting. Very very few of use get every problem solved on the first attack; Those who do, it's still just a lotta luck. And you were trying a good methodical attack, too, so pat yourself on the back.

We've all been where you are, brother!
 
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