I applied expoxy on my new 3200 sq ft garage floor this past spring. I have done installations before with the same product (muscle gloss) and have not had any problems. I was more careful with the prep than I have ever been before. The new 6" concrete (with vapor barrier underneath) cured for 30 days, it was left rough for better adhesion, i etched the floor with acid and waited 24 hours before the application and all of the mixing of the product was done to perfection. The floor looked great when it was completed. However, within the last month I have areas that are flaking up like the epoxy did not adhere properly or is being pushed off by moisture. What would cause this? What are my options? I am so upset over this. This garage is a palace otherwise and I feel like it is ruined. I have never had this problem before. I had trouble getting the last floor I did up in a spot with a grinder. Any ideas? thanks
Epoxy flaking up in some areas
- Thread starter dmull
- Start date
LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Delamination Causes:
Poor preparation to the substrate
Moisture
PH
Dust
Oil/Silicone
Animal Fat
Like the previous poster said, pictures of the floor and close-ups of the actual flaking would be great.
Poor preparation to the substrate
Moisture
PH
Dust
Oil/Silicone
Animal Fat
Like the previous poster said, pictures of the floor and close-ups of the actual flaking would be great.
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Here is a pic of a small area. Also I should mention when I first lift a piece of epoxy off the floor the concrete looks a little dark. After some time it lightens up the the color of the rest of the bare concrete. I taped plastic over a newly uncovered bare area and after days it does not show moisture on it although I do not how how valid a test this is. As I said I have not had a problem in past applications so I am pretty confident in how I applied the material. The concrete was done by a reputable mason also.
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Edger
Well-known member
Looks like a clear issue of non absorption of the epoxy into the concrete. Even when moisture causes problems there is usually some concrete still adhered to the underside of the flaked epoxy. That pic looks like the concrete is smooth without the epoxy having soaked into it.
Why would it not soak into the surface? Could it be that the acid etch was too weak for the strength of the concrete so the surface was not opened up enough, was there some sort of contamination of the surface (which would show up as beading when rinsing the acid away), was the acid not washed off enough (this still normally results in the weak top layer of concrete adhering to the epoxy so it is probably not the cause). Was there a waterproofing chemical in the concrete that stopped the epoxy from soaking into the surface?
I doubt you have any choice other than to grind it all off and start again. To be sure, you could do test patches by using a blade scraper to remove the epoxy from an area, then use stronger acid on half of it, grind the other half, reapply some epoxy and wait 12 months. Then try to scratch or scrape the existing and the test areas to see which one is strongest.
I know it sounds like a long time and a lot of work, but if you think you did the prep properly in the first place and it failed for no apparent reason then you want to be 500% sure it will adhere when you do it again.
Why would it not soak into the surface? Could it be that the acid etch was too weak for the strength of the concrete so the surface was not opened up enough, was there some sort of contamination of the surface (which would show up as beading when rinsing the acid away), was the acid not washed off enough (this still normally results in the weak top layer of concrete adhering to the epoxy so it is probably not the cause). Was there a waterproofing chemical in the concrete that stopped the epoxy from soaking into the surface?
I doubt you have any choice other than to grind it all off and start again. To be sure, you could do test patches by using a blade scraper to remove the epoxy from an area, then use stronger acid on half of it, grind the other half, reapply some epoxy and wait 12 months. Then try to scratch or scrape the existing and the test areas to see which one is strongest.
I know it sounds like a long time and a lot of work, but if you think you did the prep properly in the first place and it failed for no apparent reason then you want to be 500% sure it will adhere when you do it again.
There is no concrete on the bottom of the flaked off pieces of epoxy. I would agree the material did not penetrate the concrete. I know of nothing that shouyld of been in the concrete causing a problem. The mason who did the concrete does not understand what happened either. As I had posted, The surface was left on the rough side purposely and I used the acid at the ratio musclegloss reccomended. I just dont get it. In retrospect I wish I had just used grey tinted concrete and put a smooth surface on it. it would have saved a lot of time, money, and aggravation. The guy from muscle gloss feels its a moisture issue, but I have no idea why moisture would be coming up through a 6" slab with a vapor barrier under it. The base is crushed concrete that is well packed and the building is above grade. He is suggesting to wait and see how wide spread it becomes and the hopefully try and grind the areas coming up, apply a sealer then recoat with the epoxy on those areas. Im not optimistic and feel eventually the whole floor will come up even though right now its only in certain areas.
dcs Inc
Well-known member
Of course the manufacture will tell you it's moisture related. The pic looks like not getting the floor opened up enough to allow the epoxy to meld into it. I never use acid to prep a floor. spiral grind or shot blast is the only way to make sure you have a well prepared surface.
A really hard troweled burned in floor will not respond to a weak muriatic acid bath. Poor neutralizing and improper rinsing will create negative results. These DIY sellers will give you the quickest and shortest route of prep to sell you product. They are also the first ones to point a finger at moisture problems. Now, I should say it a possibility but from the photo I don't see that as the issue. gene elite crete Indiana
A really hard troweled burned in floor will not respond to a weak muriatic acid bath. Poor neutralizing and improper rinsing will create negative results. These DIY sellers will give you the quickest and shortest route of prep to sell you product. They are also the first ones to point a finger at moisture problems. Now, I should say it a possibility but from the photo I don't see that as the issue. gene elite crete Indiana
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LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Happy New Year Gene!!
Hate to admit it but Gene is correct, the grind is the best way for a DIY as it will do a few things that even a correct etching will not.
It will uncover a weak or sandy cap, break surface tension and cut through cure sealers. It is imperative to make sure your slab will not allow water to bead and when you put water on it, make sure it turns the concrete a dark color immediately.
In regards to moisture, a real moisture test kit is the best way. Most of these kits will include a PH test as well. Although, even that kit will not detect intermittent ground water (Spring runoff).
Did you contact the manufacturer regarding this problem?
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Thanks for all the responses. I wish I had known about this site prior to doing the floor! As I said though, I put this stuff down in my last building and it worked great. Only difference being is even though this floor was done supposedly on the rough side it was finished with a power trowel. The last one was done by hand. Im glad to hear you say it does not look like a moisture issue. I was having a hard time believing that. The acid wash did seem weak to me at the ratios directed by musclegloss. I am now starting to think that improper etching prep is the problem. I wish I was better instructed by the manufacture. I have been in contact with him. Of course he says he believes that moisture is the problem. He will give me a "discount" on his "oily floor" sealer to put down prior to recoating the affected areas with epoxy. .....thanks. Not sure what I should do here.
Edger
Well-known member
Chalk it up to experience! Even experienced contractors have a failure on occasion, the good ones learn to overcome that problem in the future, the bad ones blame moisture and walk away.
You did your best and it should have been an excellent job, damn shame it was not.
You did your best and it should have been an excellent job, damn shame it was not.
Edger
Well-known member
Diamond grinding would be the best way to remove the coating and prepare for a new one, trouble is doing it yourself can have its problems too.
It is looking more likely that your floor is a good hard one like they all should be which can be bad for diamond grinding because hard concrete blunts the diamonds so the diamond segments that do the work can polish up and not grind any more on your floor.
There are "soft bond" segments that contain a softer metal matrix around the diamonds that wear away more easily on hard concrete to expose more diamonds and keep them working even if it is at a slower pace. Rental companies do not like to provide them because if a customer used them on soft concrete they would wear away prematurely. Most do not even know they exist.
What could happen is that when you try the grinder it works beautifully for the first 10 minutes and then begins to slow down and heat up so that after 30 mins you find it is doing the job, but taking 5 to 10 times longer. This is because the segments have polished up.
On the other hand you might strike it lucky and rent a grinder with medium bond segments and your floor might not be too hard for them in which case you will do a good job.
For 3200 sq.ft. I think you should leave it to a professional in surface preparation. I do not believe it is economical for you to attempt it yourself when it is more than 2000 sq.ft.
Whoever does it should aim for an evenly ground floor where there are no dips that have an unground surface because your coating would not adhere in those dips. After grinding you will have the problem of air holes, millions of tiny holes that can affect the final look of your coating. Concrete polishing guys have a method of spraying adhesive ahead of the grinder on the second pass so that the dust is wetted and pushed into the holes. The second pass will cost less than the first, but they still have to do a similar amount of work a second time so you will be charged for it. That should give you a good floor to put a new surface down.
Don't ask me who to see, I am in Australia, but I think a concrete polishing contractor would be your best bet, they are all at World of Concrete this coming week in Vegas looking at the latest equipment and methods.
It is looking more likely that your floor is a good hard one like they all should be which can be bad for diamond grinding because hard concrete blunts the diamonds so the diamond segments that do the work can polish up and not grind any more on your floor.
There are "soft bond" segments that contain a softer metal matrix around the diamonds that wear away more easily on hard concrete to expose more diamonds and keep them working even if it is at a slower pace. Rental companies do not like to provide them because if a customer used them on soft concrete they would wear away prematurely. Most do not even know they exist.
What could happen is that when you try the grinder it works beautifully for the first 10 minutes and then begins to slow down and heat up so that after 30 mins you find it is doing the job, but taking 5 to 10 times longer. This is because the segments have polished up.
On the other hand you might strike it lucky and rent a grinder with medium bond segments and your floor might not be too hard for them in which case you will do a good job.
For 3200 sq.ft. I think you should leave it to a professional in surface preparation. I do not believe it is economical for you to attempt it yourself when it is more than 2000 sq.ft.
Whoever does it should aim for an evenly ground floor where there are no dips that have an unground surface because your coating would not adhere in those dips. After grinding you will have the problem of air holes, millions of tiny holes that can affect the final look of your coating. Concrete polishing guys have a method of spraying adhesive ahead of the grinder on the second pass so that the dust is wetted and pushed into the holes. The second pass will cost less than the first, but they still have to do a similar amount of work a second time so you will be charged for it. That should give you a good floor to put a new surface down.
Don't ask me who to see, I am in Australia, but I think a concrete polishing contractor would be your best bet, they are all at World of Concrete this coming week in Vegas looking at the latest equipment and methods.
Ok, Im still trying to get to the bottom of this. I got a couple moisture test kits and did a moisture test. Im not sure what is considered a normal result. I did the calculation that came with the kit, but it does not give an insication as to what might be considered normal. Anyone familiar with these type kits?
dcs Inc
Well-known member
If it's the dome kit, you have to grind a clear spot to use it. Follow the directions. Normally epoxies will hold up to 3 pounds pressure.
What was your readings?
What was your readings?
Garage Flooring
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This is one of those things we struggle with as a distributor who focuses on the DIY market. I would go as far as to say that most of the guys in this forum can put an epoxy down without an issue. But most of the guys buying epoxy are not part of this forum
Epoxy rarely fails, the installation does. As stated earlier in this post even contractors have failures from time to time.
So the question becomes this… Should we as a garage flooring distributor offer epoxy as a DIY Product or is doing so irresponsible? I have seen so many 'Magic Bullet" Epoxy products come and go. Citrus floor prep, you name it. Should epoxy be marketed to the professional and sold to the DIY customer 'at their own risk'?
Epoxy rarely fails, the installation does. As stated earlier in this post even contractors have failures from time to time.
So the question becomes this… Should we as a garage flooring distributor offer epoxy as a DIY Product or is doing so irresponsible? I have seen so many 'Magic Bullet" Epoxy products come and go. Citrus floor prep, you name it. Should epoxy be marketed to the professional and sold to the DIY customer 'at their own risk'?
LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Justin:
The good news is that preparation tools are becoming more affordable and more rental houses are carrying equipment that supports the DIY market for floor prep.
Due diligence is secured by offering the correct advice, participating in forums and stating correct prep methods in writing.
Despite all efforts there will be some that will do it the easy way and that's life.
The good news is that preparation tools are becoming more affordable and more rental houses are carrying equipment that supports the DIY market for floor prep.
Due diligence is secured by offering the correct advice, participating in forums and stating correct prep methods in writing.
Despite all efforts there will be some that will do it the easy way and that's life.
Garage Flooring
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I could not agree more. Lets not forget start with a GOOD product. I've marketd a lot of products from a lot of companies and I have yet to find one where the manufacturer has bulet proof instructions and the manufacturer sticks to their guns when someone is looking for an easy way out. In the past i've had to private label so I could stick my own directions in there.
I appreciate the comments and I understand completely what you are saying. I had done Appications before without any problems so when I bought material for my project I didn't anticipate a problem. I spoke in detail with the supplier before I even poured the concrete, telling him exactly what I was doing. He never suggested I do any of the thorough prep and testing I have now learned about. I don't blame his product. I blame myself for trusting what he told me to do (or what he didn't tell me) and I blame him for not giving sound advice to a customer who was spending a good amount of money.
thegarageguy
Well-known member
I've been saying it for years....acid wash prep concrete for epoxy is not good. Use acid and risk failure. Also, a good penetrating primer is very important.
Grind it all off and start over
Grind it all off and start over
If I do end up having to take the entire floor up (its not that bad yet). How do I do that without spending a fortune (3200 sq ft building)? Also how do I know what the cause was? If I am getting moisture test results out the supposed safe range wont it happen again? Or are most of you thinking this is a poor prep issue?
dcs Inc
Well-known member
Once you get an area cleaned (grounded) do another test at a different location. See what your results are. It may just be this floor didn't have time to hydrate and opening it up will do so. If not there are vapor barrier epoxies that can be applied as the primer coat. Ours hold back up to 12 lbs. pressure. (I trust it up to 8)
LegacyIndustrial
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Removal should be done with a diamond grinder or a Diamabrush head mounted to a buffer. Here is a link for this tool: http://legacyindustrial.net/cart/mastic-tool-p-296.html
If you suspect water you can stain the floor and apply an acrylic clear sealer or get crazy and install a membrane system (expensive) then epoxy again.
Once you have the floor stripped back do the plastic test in a few places and see if you trap any moisture.
If you suspect water you can stain the floor and apply an acrylic clear sealer or get crazy and install a membrane system (expensive) then epoxy again.
Once you have the floor stripped back do the plastic test in a few places and see if you trap any moisture.
dcs Inc
Well-known member
Our VB5 vapor barrier epoxy works out to around .21 cents a foot.
kyles974
Well-known member
Happy New Year Gene!!
Hate to admit it but Gene is correct, the grind is the best way for a DIY as it will do a few things that even a correct etching will not.
It will uncover a weak or sandy cap, break surface tension and cut through cure sealers. It is imperative to make sure your slab will not allow water to bead and when you put water on it, make sure it turns the concrete a dark color immediately.
In regards to moisture, a real moisture test kit is the best way. Most of these kits will include a PH test as well. Although, even that kit will not detect intermittent ground water (Spring runoff).
Did you contact the manufacturer regarding this problem?
I have to agree with Scotty here because of my experience with a "sandy concrete." (anyone interested, search sandy concrete)
My concrete guy brought out a stone grinder and it seem to knock off "most" of the sandy surface.
I will be renting a diamond grinder in the next week or so, to get the job done right, prior to my epoxy job.
Ok, finally getting back to this thread. I have been. Hey setting up the shop & have been trying to put the floor issue out of my mind. I ground a different area and ran another moisture test. The results of the first one I did a couple months ago were 4.8 with a of of 6. The latest test in a different area yielded a result of 4.7 and a ph of 8-9. I guess perhaps moisture is my issue? I dont know if I should and spot repair the areas where it's coming up using a primer or just let it to for a while & see how it progresses.
Edger
Well-known member
My gut feeling is that water is not the problem and will not be a problem to well adhered epoxy on your slab.