To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Epoxy nightmare

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
I'm pissed. I put the second coat of Sherwin Williams Armorseal (no reduction with solvent) on today. Got part of the way through the coat and noticed that the fibers from the roller were coming off onto the floor! I guess the epoxy was too thick? The temp in the garage was around 60+ degrees. I used a 3/8" nap roller just like the directions recommended. This did not happen on the first coat, but the first coat was reduced 1 pint solvent per gallon of epoxy.

Has this happened to anyone else before?

Looks like I will need to sand down the fibers and recoat the floor AGAIN...this time using a reduced epoxy mix.

I guess the only positive thing is that I'll now have 3 coats of epoxy instead of the normal 2 coats.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

REFLEXX

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
913
Location
Riverside, CA
was the roller supplied by the Mfg or their suggestion? If it's exactly what they suggested, then I'd be making the call for some compensation!

that *****.
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
You've got a point. I'm calling tomorrow for sure.

As stated in the Application Bulletin for the product, "Roller cover: 3/8" woven with Phenolic core" which is exactly what I used.
 

ChucksCrib

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Messages
545
Location
Connectivette
I've painted for a number of years............and believe me there is a difference with cheap rollers and brushes vs. a good quality made product.

I used a 1/2" nap on my floors by the way
 

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
Are you sure what kind of roller they sold you? The type of solvents in Armorseal 1000 will loosen the fibers from the core on a standard inexpensive roller. Solvent resistant rollers with a phenolic core are needed. They are specially designed for epoxy industrial applications. The fabric is pressed on the phenolic coated hard-fiber board core which resists normal exposure to MEK, Acetone, etc. work best. I had to order them from a larger Sherwin William’s store and they cost closer to $10.00 each.
 

Hammerdown

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
596
Location
The Motor City
Just my 2 cents- I always take masking tape and rub the roller covers before I start any paint job. This helps reduce the likelyhood of fibers coming loose. Even professional lintless rollers can shed, so after an experience like this I learned that extra precautions can never hurt. This doesn't help your situation now, but if you are going to apply a third coat I would do this to the rollers.
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
Hammerdown said:
Just my 2 cents- I always take masking tape and rub the roller covers before I start any paint job. This helps reduce the likelyhood of fibers coming loose. Even professional lintless rollers can shed, so after an experience like this I learned that extra precautions can never hurt. This doesn't help your situation now, but if you are going to apply a third coat I would do this to the rollers.

Good idea. I'm definitely going to do this. Thanks!
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
OldCarGuy said:
Are you sure what kind of roller they sold you? The type of solvents in Armorseal 1000 will loosen the fibers from the core on a standard inexpensive roller. Solvent resistant rollers with a phenolic core are needed. They are specially designed for epoxy industrial applications. The fabric is pressed on the phenolic coated hard-fiber board core which resists normal exposure to MEK, Acetone, etc. work best. I had to order them from a larger Sherwin William’s store and they cost closer to $10.00 each.

They really didn't make a "recommendation" per say other than use a solvent resistant roller with a phenolic core, which what I used (see first pict). For a second opinion, I went to another Sherwin Williams store tonight and asked them which roller I should use. They gave me roller below in the second picture stating that I want something solvent resistant core, 3/8". They also said I could use the other roller below (third picture) in 3/8". The third picture is another roller that a friend of mine gave me. I also talked to a painter friend of mine today and he suggested the same thing that Sherwin Williams suggested, but recommended a 1/2" nap as he said the 1/2" rollers are a denser weave compared to a 3/8". I thought completely the opposite. I tested all three rollers for lint removal.

Linzer Pylam, 3/8"
This is the dreaded roller I used on my second coat. Description claims "Hi Density Fabric, Moisture and Solvent Resistant Core, Professional Results". I bought this at Home Depot after looking through the myriad of rollers they have on the shelf. Not many explicity said "solvent resistant", most were lower end rollers often found in the contractor pack deals... so I went with this one figuring it didn't matter which brand I purchased as long it was a quality roller that was solvent resistant.

I took this new roller out of the wrap tonight, stuck it end up on my knee, wrapped my hand around the roller and ran my hand up and down it several times. Sure enough a bunch of lint, mostly larger in size, came off of the roller and continued to as long as I was running my hand over it. Eventually the large lint stopped coming off, proceeded by smaller lint. Lint continued to come off the roller as long as I ran my hand up and down it, albeit in lesser and lesser quantity...not good.


Sherwin Williams, Contractor Series, High Solvent, 3/8"
This roller at first seemed to have all the specs I wanted, "For applying high solvent based epoxies, urethanes and fiberglass resins", "specially formulated epoxy to adhere fabric to core", "Heavy duty, solvent resistant core for repeated uses". The core on this roller looks different than the other 2 rollers - it's a slightly thicker, blue type of plastic.

During the lint test however, a bunch of small sized pieces of lint continued to come off of the roller for as long as I ran my hand over it. I gave up after about 20 seconds.


Sherwin Williams, Contractor Series, Soft Woven, 1/2"
This roller faired the best out of the three. Claims to be "woven fabric for lint free painting", "heavy duty, solvent resistant core for repeated use", "extra density for the smoothest paint finish".

Upon testing it for lint, it was clear that this roller was different than the others. I got very few small fibers (barely any) after running my hand over it. I did get several small white pieces of what appeared to be adhesive from the core. These eventually dissipated. I'm assuming the woven fabric is what is responsible for the quality of this roller.


OldCarGuy, I'm going to try and find out which roller you bought. Hopefully I can find one.

If anyone else has another specific recommendation, let me know, otherwise I'm leaning towards the third Sherwin Williams roller.
 

Attachments

  • linzer.jpg
    linzer.jpg
    43.6 KB · Views: 552
  • sw_highsolv.jpg
    sw_highsolv.jpg
    40.3 KB · Views: 552
  • sw_woven.jpg
    sw_woven.jpg
    34.4 KB · Views: 572
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
Luckydevil said:
I was going to recommend Purdy because I have always heard they are the best and that is what I used on my floor with zero problems.

Sure enough, look what I found... http://www.purdycorp.com/paintdoctor/show/303

I agree. I love Purdy brushes, but never bought a roller from them. I did look at the Purdy rollers at Home Depot and I don't believe they had a statement about that explicity said "heavy duty" or "solvent resistant" on the label, which is why I passed them up.
 

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
I just returned from my new place with two extra rollers that I last used on my floor. It turned out to be the same as the Sherwin Williams high solvent contractors series as your second picture; but I with ½” pile. They are skew # 155-7065 and cost me $4.31 plus tax each. Must have been another one of those darn “Senior Moments” that I was remembering them being closer to $10.00. Lint just keeps coming off with the old tape test too. However I did take a close look at my epoxy floor and couldn’t see any signs of it on the floor. I didn’t add reducer to the epoxy mix, per the IM Rep recommendations.

SW_Roller.jpg
 

krooser

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
2,377
Location
Waupaca, Wisconsin
I bought one of those lambskin rollers and it just kinda skated across the floor on the first coat. So I bought the "good" quality Purdy rollers...they kinda broke apart and left lint on the floor.

On the second coat I used another phenolic core brand roller and changed them when they started to deteriorate about half way through the second coat.

We actually did four coats and learned not to push real hard on the roller and we got better results.

I used 70% solids Insl-X Mastic Epoxy coating...pretty thick stuff.
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
To top it all off, it looks like I might have put the epoxy on too thick in some places. It's been on the floor about 2-1/2 days, but some areas are still not completely hardened. The surface is hard, but if I push on the areas with my finger, I can feel the epoxy deflect below.

I have to sand it anyway because of the lint problem, so this will help thin these areas down, but I'm not sure if I should be concerned with the hardening "problem".

Can I sand and thrown the 3rd coat down BEFORE these areas are hardened? Should I be concerned with these areas failing?

BTW, I put the epoxy down in accordance with the recommended spreading rate:
2-1/2 gallons over 825 sq ft = 330 sq ft per gallon
Recommended spreading rate 200-350 sq ft per gallon.
 

krooser

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
2,377
Location
Waupaca, Wisconsin
You MIGHT be able to force dry the soft spots with heat and a fan bUT make sure it's dry all the way through or you'll just mess upp that section of floor with the sander.

I sanded my floor after coat #3 with a square DA type sander....worked great. I'd recommend that type over an round orbital sander any day. EZ to use...won't gouge the surface and fast, too.

Don't get too pissed...it's only a floor and you WILL get it right...
 

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
By no means put a coat of epoxy over some that is not hardened! I waited three weeks, the section that eventually hardened I roughed up and re-coated. The one that didn’t, I had to remove all of it to the bare cement. The picture that I posted the soft stuff was removed with a 3” scrapper by hand. However the rest of that 10x10' area needed heated with a torch to remove. It was an all day job! Messy and the epoxy would always catch on fire.

All I know is if it was good epoxy,,, mixed per instructions, it will hardened even if it is thick. As an experiment I filled a crack with Armorseal 1000, and it hardened within two days. Though it’s not a good idea to apply too heavy because it could crack or raze.
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
I know I mixed it right, exactly like the directions state... I think it's just too thick of a coat. The drying times listed with Sherwin Williams are film thickness dependent, so I guess I'll have to wait longer than listed.

Looks like I should wait again to recoat the floor just to be safe. I hope it doesn't take 3 weeks to harden...that would ****. I've had the heat set on 75 degrees to help cure the floor... I'm soon to be the Gas Company's top customer.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
More picts

While I'm waiting, I decided to take some more pictures.

First one is a picture of the lint. The whole floor pretty much looks like this picture.

The second picture is of the garage as it stands now. I just put the first (THINNED!) coat on the walls yesterday.
 

Attachments

  • lint.jpg
    lint.jpg
    20.7 KB · Views: 290
  • floor_walls.jpg
    floor_walls.jpg
    16.8 KB · Views: 292
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
Powder??

Anyone know what this powder is? I found some on the floor after the first and second coats. It's not stuck to the floor. It's in little piles around the middle of the floor, maybe 10 total. Strange....
 

Attachments

  • powder.jpg
    powder.jpg
    9.9 KB · Views: 253

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
Wow I feel for you!

I never had any problems with the pile coming off the roller. But when the 33 Primer started setting up after 30-minute pot life, it had a similar look. Sort of like a stringy look and I immediately stopped applying it.
 

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
krooser said:
Don't get too pissed...it's only a floor and you WILL get it right...

That line brings to mind one of the sub-contractors remarks. When I complained that his workmanship was lacking his reply was, “It’s only a garage!” I told him not to bother coming back. I think any GarageJunkie would understand. It’s not just a garage, it’s our haven and we want it done right.
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
OldCarGuy said:
That line brings to mind one of the sub-contractors remarks. When I complained that his workmanship was lacking his reply was, “It’s only a garage!” I told him not to bother coming back. I think any GarageJunkie would understand. It’s not just a garage, it’s our haven and we want it done right.

I heard that soooo many times while building my garage...even from my wife. :headshake I tried to tell my wife not to come back, but it didn't work. She's still here!

Contractors nowadays do as little as possible just to get by on the job. Very few have pride in their work... Anyway, I know where krooser was coming from...when I start working in the garage, the floor is going to get messed up anyway... I just don't want it to completely fail. I'm **** and take forever to do things, but the end result is usually pretty good compared to lazy contractors.
 

krooser

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
2,377
Location
Waupaca, Wisconsin
OldCarGuy said:
That line brings to mind one of the sub-contractors remarks. When I complained that his workmanship was lacking his reply was, “It’s only a garage!” I told him not to bother coming back. I think any GarageJunkie would understand. It’s not just a garage, it’s our haven and we want it done right.
I guess what I was saying is it ain't a life or death deal...and I know BMW will do it right...I waited forty years for my shop...I had a 24X40 with my first wife BUT we divorced before I could get things going...I told #2 that once we build the shop I'm never leaving!!!
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
Good news

A couple of days after I last checked the floor, everything started to harden up. The weather was was turning around, so I spent all night (sorry krooser, didn't rent the square orbital since Home Depot was closed) sanding the floor to get rid of the lint. I used 60 grit. Swept and vacuumed the floor a bunch of times to get rid of the dust.

The following day I covered the floor with coat #3 (reduced). I used the soft woven Sherwin Williams roller, 1/2". It went on pretty nice, but I think I put it on a little thin in places, probably since I was scared to start pulling lint off the roller again. Good news was that no lint came off the roller onto the floor. I was thrilled, however the more I looked at the floor, the more I could see roller lines. Also, some areas were thin and you could see the sanded coat #2 through those areas. All this since I put it on too thin. Word to the wise, don't put epoxy on too thin, especially at the wet edge. The epoxy dries too quickly at the edge. Soo..... I decided the put on coat #4 today after letting coat #3 harden up for a couple of days.

Coat #4 (reduced) went on really nice. I put the epoxy on thicker than coat #3, but not too thick. I made extra sure that areas would not be thin. I used another Sherwin Williams soft woven 1/2" roller again...again thankfully no problems. I left the wet edges nice and wet in order for the epoxy to "melt" together. I think I finally got technique down. Took a look a little while ago and couldn't see any roller lines or thin areas. Once the floor is cured enough to walk on, we'll see, but I'm confindent I should be good to go....finally. I can't wait to get my cabinets in there. They've been sitting in my other garage for over a year now. These last 10 days or so of cure time is gonna kill me!

Don't worry guys, pictures will come in due time.... bracing for several days of rain, so I'm trying to make the entryways as water tight as possible.

Thanks again for the help and the words of encouragement.
 

ponjohn

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
237
Location
CT
Does anybody have apicture or PN of the Sherwin Williams product?

My Garage is 22 x56. The front half is for our daily drivers ( in the winter) and the rear (22x30) is where I work.

Point is, does the paint get slick if water or snow is dropped on? anybody recommend an aggragate (sp?)

Thanks-
John
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
ponjohn said:
Does anybody have apicture or PN of the Sherwin Williams product?

My Garage is 22 x56. The front half is for our daily drivers ( in the winter) and the rear (22x30) is where I work.

Point is, does the paint get slick if water or snow is dropped on? anybody recommend an aggragate (sp?)

Thanks-
John

Part A: B67-2000
Part B: B67V2002

Supposedly, the floor will get somewhat slick when wet. If I was to use anti-slip, I would have used H&C SharkGrip.
 

ponjohn

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
237
Location
CT
BMW- I went to SW this morning to check into the armorseal- is this the p/n's you gave me?

Well they have a new water based product they are pushing heavy. 70.00 for 250 sf coverage.

Said the armorseal and all non water based products are for heavy industrail use. Thing is I don't want to do it again.

John
 

OldCarGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
1,984
Location
Ohio
Go With the Armorseall 1000HS as BMW said not their water based products. You will be glad you did!
 
OP
B

bmwpower

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
12,578
Location
NJ
ponjohn said:
BMW- I went to SW this morning to check into the armorseal- is this the p/n's you gave me?

Well they have a new water based product they are pushing heavy. 70.00 for 250 sf coverage.

Said the armorseal and all non water based products are for heavy industrail use. Thing is I don't want to do it again.

John

Yea, I know what you're talking about. The SW guy tried to push this on me, too.... it's called H&C ShieldCrete or something like that. Looks like they now have the kit on the SW shelves.

I never even considered the H&C product. I didn't want to be a guiney pig for some new product when a lot of people had good results with SW Armorseal 1000HS. The only problem was they wouldn't sell 1000HS to me due to regulations. I had to get a painter friend of a friend get it for me. If I couldn't get 1000HS, I would have gone with the Rustoleum industrial kit, which is solvent based.

Solvent based stuff is a little more of a pain to use (fumes, cleanup, expensive reducer, etc), but you get better results and a longer lasting INDUSTRIAL product. I too, only want to do this once.

Yes, the part numbers I gave you are the Part A & B for Armorseal 1000HS.

Here is a picture courtesy of PatrickW:
 

Attachments

  • Epoxy 2.jpg
    Epoxy 2.jpg
    179.5 KB · Views: 117

ponjohn

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
237
Location
CT
Sounds good, they did not say anything to me about not being able to buy it.

If they do, I have a Home improvement license so I should be able to buy it.

John
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom