Epoxy Peeling Off Floor

[dannyatlantic]

Live in Baltimore County, MD. Had garage floor coated in a 2 color metallic finish. 3 layer process (primer, base coat and then clearcoat) Job commenced on 7/25/17. Company has been around for 10+ years.

9/8/17, I noticed several areas where bubbles have appeared. When comparing the size of bubbles to coins, they range anywhere from the size of a dime to larger than a quarter and over time have increased in size.

Company recently agreed to refinish entire floor

10/23/17- installer show up to diamond sand the floor. I cut open 1 of the bubble areas and it released water.

Was able to virtually peel off 95% of the entire floor. No sander used. See pics
Company tells me there Was no product failure and that I’ve a very unusual situation w/ moisture. Maybe a 1 in 100,000. Now the lot is and always has been bone dry- no water ever in the sump pump. Never. I built the house and am familiar w/ it.

Company tells me if they use the same products they used b4, same result will occur. They recommend using another product which will withstand water to 20psi. Tells me the product is very expensive and want me to pay for the base product at another $1500

There was only 1 test of the concrete performed on June 29, 2017 when I was provided the estimate. The job commenced on July 25th.
We did incur thunderstorms on July 22nd, 23rd, 24th , 26th, 28th and the 29th.
Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PoorOwner]

you did not mention they grinded the floor for the initial installation, from the pictures it doesn't look to be?

You can see efflorescence the pictures.

Although lack of grinding, is only partially to blame , the moisture is going to push the coating away from the floor.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

the moisture is going to push the coating away from the floor.

I second that comment.

Take pieces poly ... large garbage bags should do. Spread them out in a number of places around the garage floor. Tape then down with a good duct tape ... seal 100% around the edges.

Wait three or four days.

Then take them up. I expect you're going to have water under the poly. Concrete is porous. The moisture is working its way through the porous concrete and into your garage, which after the nice floor was put down started to push the new floor coating off the concrete.

There are floor coating which will penetrate the porous concrete and create a barrier between the concrete and new floor coating, never used them, but I know they are out there.

The test above should have been done by the flooring company BEFORE they gave you a quote.

What happens if you put a heavy cardboard box on the floor for a week? Is there moisture under the box? I suspect there would be.

On new construction, think poly sheets at put down before the concrete is laid which keeps the moisture from coming through. This is one reason why buildings with concrete floors that are closed up all the time often seem like they have high humidity ... moisture coming up through the floor that doesn't escape.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Agree with the previous poster, the floor looks smooth and the way the coating peeled, even with a water issue is SUSPECT. Keep in mind, there are coatings that can hold back a bunch but if you have a serious water problem even the best of these products (our own Aqua-Dike is a champ) can eventually fail.

At this point a serious moisture test should be done and if you proceed that floor has got to be diamond ground VERY WELL.

Good luck.

 

[Eliteconcept]

Live in Baltimore County, MD. Had garage floor coated in a 2 color metallic finish. 3 layer process (primer, base coat and then clearcoat) Job commenced on 7/25/17. Company has been around for 10+ years.

9/8/17, I noticed several areas where bubbles have appeared. When comparing the size of bubbles to coins, they range anywhere from the size of a dime to larger than a quarter and over time have increased in size.

Company recently agreed to refinish entire floor

10/23/17- installer show up to diamond sand the floor. I cut open 1 of the bubble areas and it released water.

Was able to virtually peel off 95% of the entire floor. No sander used. See pics
Company tells me there Was no product failure and that I’ve a very unusual situation w/ moisture. Maybe a 1 in 100,000. Now the lot is and always has been bone dry- no water ever in the sump pump. Never. I built the house and am familiar w/ it.

Company tells me if they use the same products they used b4, same result will occur. They recommend using another product which will withstand water to 20psi. Tells me the product is very expensive and want me to pay for the base product at another $1500

There was only 1 test of the concrete performed on June 29, 2017 when I was provided the estimate. The job commenced on July 25th.
We did incur thunderstorms on July 22nd, 23rd, 24th , 26th, 28th and the 29th.
Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

I'd tell them i either want my money back or for them to do the job you paid them to do initially. $1500 more for a product they should have quoted you for in the first place. forget that. they don't know what they are doing, get your money back and move on.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Unfortunately this problem can occur. The issue with moisture testing is that it's only a snapshot of the days it's tested so you can get false positives or negatives.

Agree with above but suggest taking multiple readings with inexpensive moisture test kits and see what the levels are. Need to test after rain. Once levels are measured contact us for some advice.

And yes Legacy is correct that even high quality moisture barriers can fail if the levels are super high so if they are that high than epoxy is not the correct choice, you would need to use a urethane mortar which is much more moisture tolerant but can't be made metallic looking. Epoxies and high moisture or water are not friends.

Alternately leave it alone and put down ventilated floor tiles which breathe and move on. Zero chance of failure and fixed in just hours.


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[dannyatlantic]

they did grind it albeit it does not appear spo

 

[dannyatlantic]

Thanks Scotty- I see there are various methods to test water...what do you consider a "serios" method?

 

[dannyatlantic]

Great advice- Thank you

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Thanks Scotty- I see there are various methods to test water...what do you consider a "serios" method?

Get (2) of the packet testers. Look on Amazon.
You can send them in or weigh them at home to determine the story.
I like to do two as a backup.

 

[tncatadjuster]

That is a very large amount of water. Had there been a problem under mats or buckets? If you were present on the pour is there a vapor barrrier?

 

[DSA87GN]

Sorry for your troubles there, the floor really looked sharp

 

[cash68]

- you HAVE to grind the floor to get good adhesion. Without grinding, it will peel off like yours just did.

- If you ahve moisture issues, you need to solve that first. Gutters, landscaping, etc are all vital. Also, for insurance I used this:

It's supposed to soak down into the concrete and seal up all the capillaries.

 

[dannyatlantic]

Never had any problem w/ water. The house is extremely dry and the lot has never held water. No idea about the vapor barrier- house is approx 50 years old.

 

[cash68]

Never had any problem w/ water. The house is extremely dry and the lot has never held water. No idea about the vapor barrier- house is approx 50 years old.

No it isn't.

"10/23/17- installer show up to diamond sand the floor. I cut open 1 of the bubble areas and it released water. "

You have water issues.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

- you HAVE to grind the floor to get good adhesion. Without grinding, it will peel off like yours just did.

- If you ahve moisture issues, you need to solve that first. Gutters, landscaping, etc are all vital. Also, for insurance I used this:

It's supposed to soak down into the concrete and seal up all the capillaries.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Per the other string on this Rustoleum product, it will do hardly any moisture vapor holdback. It's really a low quality/low solids densifier masquerading as a vapor barrier.

If there is a true moisture issue which it appears there is, a moisture barrier COATING. Must be properly applied to bare properly prepared concrete.

 

[cash68]

I get that both of you sell very nice, very expensive products.

However, I don't have much money as I am a poor millenial struggling to make it under student debt. It was available locally and has worked great so far.

Here are some nice reviews:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-1-gal-Moisture-Stop-4-Pack-301239/206560102

Surely all those people are delusional, and should have spent $1000/gallon on whatever crazy stuff you guys sell, right?

 

[NewShockerGuy]

I'd ask for my money back honestly. Seems like you have a water issue.

Side question regarding this. What if he laid down tile? Would the thinset/tiles eventually lift up the same way the epoxy coating did?

No way I'd put down epoxy again knowing that you have water issues like this. Seems like you'd be throwing money away...

-Nigel

 

[graffix000]

I get that both of you sell very nice, very expensive products.

However, I don't have much money as I am a poor millenial struggling to make it under student debt. It was available locally and has worked great so far.

Here are some nice reviews:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-1-gal-Moisture-Stop-4-Pack-301239/206560102

Surely all those people are delusional, and should have spent $1000/gallon on whatever crazy stuff you guys sell, right?

No need to get defensive. The rustoleum is a band aid, and not a good one at that, and would not solve the OP's problem if it is as bad as it is made out to be. These guys are trying to help, and are not pushing their own products on him.

 

[Shea]

This is exactly why consumers get so confused and bad information gets passed around when it comes to sealers and coatings for concrete and garage floors.

The Rust-Oleum product is basically a densifier. Densifiers are reactive. Once applied, the reactive process creates calcium silicate hydrate which fills many of the open pores and capillaries within the concrete. The filling of these pores also helps to harden the concrete. The process takes approximately 7 days once the densifier is applied.

Applying a densifier will definitely slow down moisture intrusion for the simple fact that it is filling many of the open pores and capillaries that carry moisture. Floors with efflorescence are a great example. Many of these floors only get slightly damp if at all. There is just enough moisture making its way through the concrete to deposit salt and minerals at the surface as the water evaporates. Apply a densifier and the problem stops. They often work well for floors that get damp in certain times of the year as well. Sometimes they will stop moisture intrustion completely if it's not very serious. This is why they can work sometimes with coatings. Sounds great so far, right?

Well, this is why they are not the solution many times for coatings.

There is no actual barrier that is established to block moisture intrusion and water vapor. Moisture intrusion in the concrete is slowed down for the simple reason that the concrete is more dense after applying a densifier. Many times this is all that is needed for small moisture issues - especially for slabs that are above grade. They are just acting like a sponge and drawing moisture based on weather conditions. Densifiers, like most other penetrating sealers, breathe. They might slow down physical water from reaching the surface, but they still allow moisture vapor to pass through. When you apply a non-breathable film forming coating on the surface of the slab (epoxy, polyurea, etc.), this moisture vapor gets trapped. Get enough vapor trapped and you soon will have water.

If the concrete remains damp under the coating, the salt and mineral deposits build up under the coating and it eventually begins to peel, exposing white crumbly powder beneath the coating. If hydrostatic pressure is built up due to a below grade slab, it can actually cause the coating to pop off the surface, many times taking chunks of concrete with it where the coating penetrated and adhered well.

This is why moisture vapor barrier coatings need to be applied. They are formulated to penetrate deep into the concrete to block water and moisture vapor. Some can work with moisture vapor transmission rates as high as 20lbs per 1000 sf. in a 24 hour period.

Regarding the excellent reviews of the Rust-Oleum product.

If you take the time to review them, most are giving excellent marks for how easy it was to apply and how well it was packaged. Few if any are commenting on how well it solved their problem. None had a problem remotely close to the OP's problem. When you slice a bubble and water comes pouring out, you have some serious moisture issues that need to be addressed and is why a moisture vapor barrier coating is the first line of defense to consider after moisture test results are reviewed.

Consumers read reviews such as these, they use the product incorrectly, then they blame the coating manufacturer for making a bad product after it peels from the concrete. This is just one of the many reasons why coatings and sealers get blamed for not working or being a bad product. The marketing used by the large companies to sell mass product in the home improvement centers is always misleading. It's not necessarily wrong, but they use the language in such a way to make you think it will solve your problem for less than $25.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Our comments were in no way meant to comment on anyone's purchase or product selection, just to advise GJ members that they shouldn't expect a cure for a serious problem from an inexpensive, home center type product. Sometimes members may innocently recommend a product that may not work for another member so the regular participants chime in sometimes.

We are sure that the ROE product has a niche and works fine in certain applications, but often members here have serious moisture or floor coating failure issues that need attention, so the participants here attempt to educate the group, that's all. We would hate to see someone with a high moisture issue spend a lot of money on an epoxy floor to find in a short time it peeling up in sheets, which could have been avoided with proper testing, prep and product selection.

 

[Shea]

Our comments were in no way meant to comment on anyone's purchase or product selection, just to advise GJ members that they shouldn't expect a cure for a serious problem from an inexpensive, home center type product. Sometimes members may innocently recommend a product that may not work for another member so the regular participants chime in sometimes.

We are sure that the ROE product has a niche and works fine in certain applications, but often members here have serious moisture or floor coating failure issues that need attention, so the participants here attempt to educate the group, that's all. We would hate to see someone with a high moisture issue spend a lot of money on an epoxy floor to find in a short time it peeling up in sheets, which could have been avoided with proper testing, prep and product selection.

Just to add a bit more to the conversation....

This is why some may seem taken back (or annoyed?) when an experienced vendor recommends the correct solution that is more expensive. They are experienced at what they do and are recommending solutions that are known to work. They also know what doesn't work.

Cash68 did nothing wrong recommending the Rust-Oleum product. I most likely would have recommended the same based on how the product is marketed if I was an average consumer looking for a solution. My beef is that these large companies sometimes create more problems than they solve with their products.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Agree!

 

[Patrobot]

We had the same problem with a 35 year old attached, 2 bay garage floor. Everything was in order when we laid down the solvent based epoxy but within a year it started to blister and scale. After careful investigation it was determined that there was no vapor barrier under the slab and that the terrain caused water to collect around the site below grade. The only solution is to install a french drain or similar and drain down spouts as far away from the building as possible.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Same Same, Buy what you want. I made no mention of quality, just my opinion of the effectiveness of a given category, not mfg. I am sure they make dandy densifier.

FACT: Densifiers are not an acceptable replacement for $100.00 per gallon MVB coatings.
Do some research on it. You will reach the same conclusion.