Epstein's Tool Gossip
- Thread starter jsackin
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joeswamp
Well-known member
Walmart is not like any other retailer. How many other retailers have more employees than the US military?
The problem is that you have one customer that's so much bigger than any others that they have way too much bargaining power and control over the market. It's a classic example of a market failure -- good tools are much more expensive and harder to get than they should be, and cheap crappy stuff that breaks in 24 hrs is way too easy to get.
I first realized Stanley was low quality BECAUSE I saw it in walmart.
But yes it is an old and trusted name, and I'm guessing millions buy their stuff at walmart without even knowing there was better out there.
I'd love to see a family feud "top 10" quality hand tool brands. I bet C'man would be number one, and Stanley would be #2. Mac and Snap on would probably make the list. As might channellock. I bet ya kobalt would be higher than all three. The public is the problem. The only solution is to FORCE sense into them by heavily penalizing foreign goods.
foolishpride
Well-known member
The CEO of Simplicity lawn equipment said NO to Walmart, and pulled their Snapper mowers from their stores. It seems to have worked out well for them.
http://slashdot.org/story/06/03/28/2235246/The-Man-Who-Said-No-to-Wal-Mart
Stuey
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing that!
Makes me feel better about spending a little extra on these brands.
Not quite tool gossip, but a number of guys here have asked me when Wright was going to come out with the full WrightGrip Metric wrench set. Well, we just got one in today.
Here's a big pic:
http://store.harryepstein.com/daily...oads/2011/09/wrightmetricsetwrightgripBIG.jpg
Pic of the wrench head:
http://store.harryepstein.com/dailydispatch/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/wrightgriphead.jpg
and the listing:
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/MetCombWr/750-SET.html
Here's a big pic:
http://store.harryepstein.com/daily...oads/2011/09/wrightmetricsetwrightgripBIG.jpg
Pic of the wrench head:
http://store.harryepstein.com/dailydispatch/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/wrightgriphead.jpg
and the listing:
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/MetCombWr/750-SET.html
slipjointed
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 31, 2011
- Messages
- 665
Seriously Jori?
Screw you.
Order placed for Moody screwdriver set and Metric Wright grip set.
Cool. I'm gonna have a set of metric Wright Grip in my next order. Dunno on satin or full polish yet though. Seems I need to buy some Moody tools too.
That there Jori fellar is one evil sales person.
I think this is the closest to a "you ****" that I've come so far. Sorry guys.
4x4gearhead
Well-known member
So furthermore there will be one more imported brand of tools that home depot will be selling. This comes as no surprise to me considering the quality of everything else on the shelves in that place.
So, here's another thing to be upset about....
The Crescent tool rep came in to our store today and tried to sell us on crescent brand imported adjustable wrenches. That's right. No longer will crescent adjustables be US made. It might take them awhile to phase the US stuff out, so if you are a big fan of their wrenches, now might be the time to pick one up. We don't really sell them anymore since we buy direct from Western Forge, but just wanted to give you guys the heads up.
ps
the import ones will be the shiny chrome instead of the matte and they'll be 15% less.
Jori
http://store.harryepstein.com
The Crescent tool rep came in to our store today and tried to sell us on crescent brand imported adjustable wrenches. That's right. No longer will crescent adjustables be US made. It might take them awhile to phase the US stuff out, so if you are a big fan of their wrenches, now might be the time to pick one up. We don't really sell them anymore since we buy direct from Western Forge, but just wanted to give you guys the heads up.
ps
the import ones will be the shiny chrome instead of the matte and they'll be 15% less.
Jori
http://store.harryepstein.com
kissmeimgerman
Well-known member
Hoping for a couple Mora knives from the family..!
@Jori Wright adjustables USA made correct?
@Jori Wright adjustables USA made correct?
bobcatdan
Well-known member
USA made cresent wrench is all that cresent had left.
I believe the thinking is, since Danaher and Cooper merged, Armstrong is going to be the US made line, while Crescent is going to be the econo-import line. Then the question becomes, where does Armstrong get their adjustables made? They used to get them from Western Forge, and if that remains the case, then WF will be the last US adjustable manufacturer left.
Jawn
Well-known member
Wow. Glad I built up my little hoarde of them. (4", 6", 8", 10", 12"). I might have to round up the set with the 15" just for gits and shiggles.
Stuey
Well-known member
Thanks for the news!
By "15% less" do you mean at wholesale or retail? I doubt that the prices at the big box home improvement stores will drop to reflect the new cost savings.
In any case, although I buy one or two Crescent wrenches each year, they're ****. USA-made, but ****. They're sloppy and don't adjust smoothly.
Stanley's Max Steel adjustables are my cheap adjsutable wrenches of choice. Beyond that, I'm a HUGE fan of Channellock and Irega.
I wonder if this means that Danaher/Cooper will replace the Craftsman adjustable wrenches as well. Sears has already dropped the Craftsman Pro adjustables, and all that are left are the plain Jane ones.
SMKS
Well-known member
+1
I'm sad to see US jobs lost, but those wrenches are garbage. The lower jaw is super loose on all the newer wrenches I've see. The WF wrenches are a big step up, IMO.
But, right now I think all my adjustable wrenches are made in Spain. They're high quality.
Boost Creep
Well-known member
this makes me curious now. do you also consider channellock and vaughan low quality too? those are both sold at walmart
and before i read this thread i assumed vaughan and estwing were made at the same place. all the estwings that came in to replace the vaughans when they went on clearance were identical aside from the name on them
I was in KS for Thanksgiving and forgot all about Epstein's.
GoBlue
Well-known member
I had never heard of Epstein's until i came to Garage Journal. I love their business practices and have purchase a couple of items from them via ebay.
As far as the big box stores go...i place the blame with the consumer. I feel the store's are merely catering to their consumers wants. I do not feel a company can totally control demand with supply. I think demand will eventually win out...but...the average American consumer is a total *******! I demand quality products and refuse the ****. If your typical wallmart shopper did the same, wallmart would either sell quality products or go out of business. At some point Americans decided low price disposable junk was better for them than built to last quality. Probably in the 60s or 70s if i were guessing.
As far as the big box stores go...i place the blame with the consumer. I feel the store's are merely catering to their consumers wants. I do not feel a company can totally control demand with supply. I think demand will eventually win out...but...the average American consumer is a total *******! I demand quality products and refuse the ****. If your typical wallmart shopper did the same, wallmart would either sell quality products or go out of business. At some point Americans decided low price disposable junk was better for them than built to last quality. Probably in the 60s or 70s if i were guessing.
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jeffmoss26
Well-known member
Guess I will hang on to my old Crescent USA wrenches!
Epstein's, not Einsteins. The latter sells bagels.
As for low-price junk, I'd say their budgets probably made that decision for them. Wages have been spiraling downward for decades, probably beginning in the 60s or so. People buy cheap **** because, often, they don't have much of a choice.
I guess another factor might be that so much of what we own now isn't serviceable. When I was a kid and the TV broke, we'd call a guy and he'd bring his tools, open up the TV and pull whatever part had malfunctioned and replace it. It was all modular circuit boards that were made to be easily replaced by a serviceman right in your home. It was an old Zenith set (well, it wasn't that old at the time), the kind that had casters on it. Space-age looking thing.
When a TV malfunctions now, we just throw it out. Partly because the technology is so complicated that it's not easily repaired, partly because the relentless march of technology means it's not really worth repairing.
When so much of what's in our lives isn't serviceable, what value can you place on tools? If you have to choose between a Snap-on ratchet and a trip with the kids, which do you pick? People settle on HF tools because for the purpose it serves in their life, the price suits the need.
Of course, we're talking about John Q. Public. The demographic in here is different.
The death of American manufacturing has as much to do with inflation, rising cost of living, rising wages, greed, and government mismanagment as anything else. The bottom line is that we can't cheaply produce goods anymore. We could once, in the '30s, '40s, and '50s. Like most matured economies, we lost what economists call "absolute advantage" a long time ago, and that's a whole other discussion.
diesel research
Well-known member
This was used in the 30s in an attempt to pull the USA out of the great depression. Over simplified logic was if americans were buying more (out of necessity) it would create more jobs, more wealth, more buying, and repeat in an never-ending upward spiral.
I am sure we can see the error of this pre-war logic. Of course, soon we had a war, so that put things on pause a bit. Post-war the strategy was to encourage americans to buy **** not just because the old was "worn out", but because it was "out of date" and "out of style", bringing a new level of consumerism and "keeping up with the jones"
People love quality, but name some former quality brand that hasn't screwed the pooch and dumped something lower quality on consumers and failed to stand behind their mistake. Add in a gutless press that reports using press releases stamped to paid advertising, and consumers don't trust anybody anymore, so why pay a premium?
The new product model is make something defective and advertise it heavily, repeat.
The new product model is make something defective and advertise it heavily, repeat.
HandyManny
Well-known member
Even though some Walmart stores carry Channellock from time to time I've never see them as a consistent product at Walmart. I think there is already too much stiff and cheaper competition in Walmart with their Asian sourced Stanley hand tools. I don't think Channellocks sell very well there to begin with. Plus Channellock has plenty of industrial suppliers and hardwareor specialty tool store selling their pliers too. Hoepfully Walmart won't drag Channellock down if they decide to carry the product regularly.
HandyManny
Well-known member
Interestingly enough the 1930's was a time in this country when American workers actually gave a damn and did the best job they could when making a product. You see a lot of that care and quality in many vintage products from the 1930's. They were far from a disposable generation. I think there were many other more job opportunities created during the 1930's to create jobs than simply cheapening products.
HandyManny
Well-known member
I disagree. Channellock seems to be able to produce high quality USA made tools made by American hands within our boarders and still turn a profit while paying a livable wage to their employees. And they can offer their tools at fair prices, not cheap, but reasonable. I'm willing to pay it. Not only that, they make most of their products readily available to most buyers. I think a lot of companies give terrible piss poor excuses for outsourcing or offshoring. Corporate CEOs and share holders just get too greedy, that's all. Maybe our higher education institutions are just teaching erronous business practices to students these days.
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HandyManny
Well-known member
I agree to a certain point. Fact is that most people don't need tools like Snap-On. Many of the people here who own pro grade tools don't wrench for a living, but own Snap-On simply because they want to. I wrenched for a living years ago and off and on at various times. Was always able to do a job without Snap-On hand tools. Plus the average Joe tool user back in the old days wouldn't usually buy Snap-On or MAC unless they were professional mechanics of some sort. A lot of guys who worked in shops, factories, and farms made due with many other commonly avaliable quality hand tool at the time. In the days prior to the 1970's good quality domestic hand tool were commonly availabe from many sources. Truth is that I realy miss those days when you could walk into most hardware stores, feed stores, and automotive supply store and buy decent quality American made hand tools right off the shelf. Those days are no longer.
I think what you are saying is becomeing more and more the norm. But we do throw out and replace a lot more things today than we really have to, much of it can still be repaired. I think a lot of it has to do with a generation of helpless people we are raising these days. For all the pretty people hosting the DIY shows we still have an increasing generation of DIFM (Do It For Me). I mean I know too many youger guys these days who are too afraid of getting their hands dirty, they were never raised to change their own oil or perform routine maintenance on their own vehicles. Change a flat tire? Oh that's beyond them or benieth them to do.
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diesel research
Well-known member
You suppose that the products you haven't seen from the era is due to them ending up in a landfill long time ago?
This was not a mandatory national gov't program but an idea brewed up long before we think. Individual companies choose whether or not to follow one of many business philosophies. Some companies felt that pulling the US out of the depression was in their best interests, and felt that was the way to do it.I believe the paper I was reading on the topic was from '31 or '32 touting the idea, although I am sure it occurred in many others minds before that.
Actually, I find a quotation dated 1840
So while some particular handtool appears to have been made to the highest standards possible of the '30s, compared to current, what would people have said when comparing items from the '20s?
I think in principle, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I consider Channellock kind of an exception, and I think they're an exception because to a large degree, their management hasn't caved to greed. They could sell out and make a lot more money by outsourcing, but they believe in the bigger picture and have stubbornly refused. Of course, it should be noted, even Channellock outsources – just not their bread and butter: pliers. But make no mistake, they are sacrificing profit to stick to their guns.
Stanley, Danaher, and many others have had no such qualms. They've gladly exploited cheap labor because it's advantageous to do so. Why not outsource Crescent wrenches? You can double your profit and most people won't even notice. When all the wrenches at Home Depot are 15% cheaper than your product because everyone else outsourced, you practically don't have a choice if you want to stay competitive. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
It's a downward spiral, unfortunately.
On the other subject: An annoying trait in modern men is a lack of intellectual curiosity. I don't blame them, though. I blame their parents. I grew up playing with electrical kits, chemical kits, microscopes, computers and lots of other "dangerous" things. You can barely get those things in the store anymore. Mind you, I'm not a scientist or tradesman. I'm a writer, one of those guys that sits at a keyboard and does bookish things. But I enjoy taking things apart in my spare time. I like finding out how things work by screwing them up repeatedly. Building a rocket kit, soldering, rebuilding a double wishbone. It reminds me of being a kid. I think modern boys are missing out on that Thomas Edison spirit.
It shows in our higher education system (where I work). Enrollment is predominantly female. I don't know what happens to boys anymore, maybe they just become burger flippers and "musicians."
I know people don't think of mechanics as intellectuals, but show me a kid who never burned himself on fireworks and doesn't know how to use a wrench, and I'll show you a kid who is practically guaranteed to never be a rocket scientist. When people stop building things, that's how innovation dies.
/end rant.
toolmaker1
Well-known member
The main factor keeping Channellock production in the USA is the fact that it is a family owned and run company. The DeArments seem committed to keeping production In Meadville and they make quite a good living doing it from what I hear.
slipjointed
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 31, 2011
- Messages
- 665
The difference between companies like Channellock and the numerous fill-in-the-blank rebadging conglomerates, is the quick buck vs. foresight.
This really boils down to the tortoise vs. the hare.
Companies like Channellock recognize that they have a strong American brand name, and there are customers that will stay loyal to that name and product standard, over a long period of time... same goes for a good deal of their shareholders. There are other companies such as Wright, Moody, Starrett, and even ideal's vision for SK tool, that share the same philosophy. They sacrifice short term profits for long term security.
Companies like Apex tool group sacrifice the reputation of their brand for increased short term gain, and as soon as their cover is blown on whatever rebadged chinese tool line they've recently ruined, they often will merge with some other brand vampire that's also gone dry, and then go looking for another reputable brand to bleed money from.
The majority of today's businesses have NO foresight or desire to build a long lasting brand. They only care about the absolute maximum amount of blood they can squeeze out of their turnip NOW, and whatever happens in the future means squat to them.
The shareholders are just as guilty... they are looking at shorter and shorter average return periods, and frankly, if they turn a good profit this year, they could give a **** less whether the company is profitable next year, because they've probably already sold the stocks.
There used to be a time when investing in a company actually meant something.
This really boils down to the tortoise vs. the hare.
Companies like Channellock recognize that they have a strong American brand name, and there are customers that will stay loyal to that name and product standard, over a long period of time... same goes for a good deal of their shareholders. There are other companies such as Wright, Moody, Starrett, and even ideal's vision for SK tool, that share the same philosophy. They sacrifice short term profits for long term security.
Companies like Apex tool group sacrifice the reputation of their brand for increased short term gain, and as soon as their cover is blown on whatever rebadged chinese tool line they've recently ruined, they often will merge with some other brand vampire that's also gone dry, and then go looking for another reputable brand to bleed money from.
The majority of today's businesses have NO foresight or desire to build a long lasting brand. They only care about the absolute maximum amount of blood they can squeeze out of their turnip NOW, and whatever happens in the future means squat to them.
The shareholders are just as guilty... they are looking at shorter and shorter average return periods, and frankly, if they turn a good profit this year, they could give a **** less whether the company is profitable next year, because they've probably already sold the stocks.
There used to be a time when investing in a company actually meant something.
HandyManny
Well-known member
Very good observation. I totally agree. I've known in my lifetime a great many mechanics who were/are very intellectual types, not just meat-head wrench turners as many pedestrians may regard them, but guys who could use their head and diagnose a problem and much more. When I was Captain onboard B-727s and DC-10s I had some of the younger 1st and 2nd officers refere to the maintenance folks as being just mechanics. Though I was Captain I took offence myself because I'm also a certified A&P mechanic. I was actually suprised that many 2nd officers were not as well. Anyway, my younger crewmen often interigated me as to why I spent a lot of time around those mechanics. Well the short answer is any smart pilot who wants to learn his aircraft better than what they teach you in Initial is better serving himself by picking those mechanics brains, you learn a lot doing so. People tend to get it in their heads that only the book smart people are intelligent. Not so, from my observation. In fact some of the biggest idiots I've ever had the displeasure of talking to were/are people that hold Masters degrees and PhDs. And yes, I know personally more of those higher degree'd people than I really care to.
Anyway, didn't mean to get off on tangent here.HandyManny
Well-known member
You suppose that the products you haven't seen from the era is due to them ending up in a landfill long time ago?
I believe the paper I was reading on the topic was from '31 or '32 touting the idea, although I am sure it occurred in many others minds before that.
Actually, I find a quotation dated 1840
So while some particular handtool appears to have been made to the highest standards possible of the '30s, compared to current, what would people have said when comparing items from the '20s?
Do you really believe all that? Especially the part about the sailor? I mean does the average sailor really know much about how long ships are supposed to last? If it had been a ship builder and admiral then yeah I could buy that, but asking a simple sailor. That's like asking a basic filing clerk at your office about the whole business operation. No one person knows everything about their company. Co'mon.
By the way there are a great many vintage hand tools still being used today without many of their users even knowing or caring how old they are. I once visited about 10 years ago a light fixture refurbishing shops and they had tools and a bench vise that looked to me to be from the 1920's.
The workshop on my wifes families horse ranch still had an old tool-steel plain finished 12" Diamond Calk Horse Shoe Co adjustable wrench hanging on the back wall along with other tools. From my observation that adjustable wrench is one of the earliest of the Diamond adjustable probably from the 1920's and it still gets used regularly to this day. When I first visited that ranch in the late 1950's a ranch-hand told me that wrench had been there as long as he can recall and he'd worked for the family for over 20 years by that time. I only asked about it because at the time I had the same wrench but mine was bought new in 1955
The main factor keeping Channellock production in the USA is the fact that it is a family owned and run company. The DeArments seem committed to keeping production In Meadville and they make quite a good living doing it from what I hear.
How'd they keep the greedy unions out? Do they actually have a culture where there's co-operation to keep jobs in the USA?
HandyManny
Well-known member
Maybe the fact that every other of the many tool/die makers that once existed in Meadville left such an appreciation for tool makers at Channellock that nobody wants unions.