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Equipment grounding and wire gauges on generator panels..how does it meet code?

JackOfDiamonds

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I'm wiring up a Reliance ProTran 2 generator transfer switch. These are common units available at Lowes etc. I see 2 things that seem to violate normal wiring principles.

1. Requires stepping down wire gauges in the main panel. The Reliance panel is pre-wired with 12-guage stranded wires. This is good for 20A breakers, even though most of the breakers in the transfer switch are are 15A. It is acceptable to use 12ga wire on 15A circuits. However it's NOT normally acceptable to step wire size down to a smaller gauge. When I wire up the transfer switch, I'm going to have to connect 12ga wire from the transfer switch directly to the existing 14ga house wiring. This is normally not allowed, but I guess it's an exception? Just a technicality? This doesn't bother me so much, because I don't see a safety issue as long as I use 15A breakers in the Reliance panel for 14ga house circuits. But I wonder how this is considered up to code.

2. Unconventional neutral wire gauge. The generator INPUT receptacle for the Reliance panel is a 30-amp, 4-wire unit. The Reliance panel is pre-wired with a 12ga neutral wire to the main panel. This wire doesn't connect anywhere in the Reliance panel itself, and seems designed only to connect from the main panel back to the the 30A input receptacle. I don't think the 12ga neutral is appropriate for a 30A feeder (explained below).

So my choice here is either wire the input receptacle with 10ga wire, like a normal branch circuit would require, but then I will be connecting that 10ga neutral wire to 12ga wire in the Reliance panel anyway, which is odd/silly and also breaks the principle of not changing wire gauges. Or I can wire the generator input receptacle with 12ga wire all the way to the main panel, since that's probably sufficient and it's what Reliance provided. Or I could rip out the 12ga wire Reliance provided, and wire 10ga all the way back to the panel neutral bar, like would be required for a branch circuit.

My thought process as to the 12ga neutral wire being undersize is as follows. 30A branch circuits require a neutral wire equal in size to the phase wires and the phase wire breaker. There is no separate breaker on neutral wires, and so a branch circuit's neutral wire is protected only by the main breaker on the phase wires. And while it's unlikely, we don't require loads to observe any max load on the neutral, so a 4-wire load might theoretically draw 30A of 120V load before the 30A breaker would trip, so the neutral wire has to be "oversized" to 30A to match the 30A phase breaker.

I understand the input receptacle is not a branch circuit, but its a feeder circuit. Feeder circuits to a panel are allowed to have neutral wires smaller than the phase wires under certain conditions, but this generator panel doesn't seem to be one of those. Feeder circuits can have smaller neutral wires IFF the neutral wire is sufficient to support all possible 120V loads in the panel. In other words, if you have a 100A sub-panel with mostly 240V breakers, and the only 120V load in that panel was a single 15A breaker, you could technically run only a 14ga neutral wire to that sub-panel. That would be stupid and nobody does it, because it doesn't allow future expansion, and because somebody could add more 120V breakers in the future and overload the neutral wire, but the code allows it because the code doesn't always require provision for future expansion, and only electricians are supposed to be adding/removing breakers, and electricians are supposed to do load calculations to confirm the panel supports any changes. The neutral wire can be smaller than the phase wires as long as it can carry the SUM of all the 120V breakers OR the main phase breaker, whichever is smaller.

Even though the generator input is a feeder circuit, so a smaller neutral MIGHT be allowed, there's no reason the neutral should be undersized in this case, because it's typical that almost the entire panel will consist of 120V loads, so the sum of the 120V breakers will almost certainly be greater than the 20A max for a 12ga wire, and so the neutral wire needs to be protected up to the main phase breaker size i.e. 30A so it can be protected by the 30A breaker on the generator. The only justification for an undersize neutral in this case would come from assuming the generator has a 20A breaker on the neutral specifically and I've never heard of that. Or just assuming a 20A+ load on a single leg is sufficiently rare that it should never happen, but it seems odd to "trust the generator" that much, especially with all the crazy generator adapters that exist.
 
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mm08822

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Some pics to go along with the above would help.

I don't see any problem with "oversized" conductors in this case as you could easily swap out the 15A cb's for 20A if the circuits required such. (For sure people would compllain if everything was wired with 14 and needed 20A circuits backed-up.)

I agree with you on the #12 neutral vs that of #10. Unlesss the pics tell a different story, I wouldn't think twice about replacing it with #10 since the phase conductors are protected with a 30A 2P.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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I did some more research and apparently concern #1 is incorrect. The NEC allows you to use different size gauges on a circuit as long as the smallest size on the circuit is still protected by the breaker. I've heard people say otherwise but according to the code it's fine.

Concern #2 still seems unlikely to cause a problem, considering safety factors, but I still think the neutral should be 10ga to match the phase conductors.
 

mm08822

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Yes, but even when feeding a panel the neutral wire must be rated for the sum of the 120V breakers or the breaker of the phase conductors, whichever is smaller. That's not the case here.
Not so. The cb's could be across both legs and the neutral only carries the imbalance.

The minimum neutral size of a feeder can't be smaller than that of the grounding conductor as per NEC 215.2B.
 

mike93lx

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I know that neutrals can be smaller for feeder circuits but this doesn't seem to meet the requirements.
It will be fine. I bet you don't have anything in your house that will overload a #12 neutral, let alone something that you would run while on generator power. The neutral going back to the generator is only carrying any imbalance between the hots anyway, so most of the time it will likely be near zero current

I'd reach out to Reliance for their feedback if I wanted info on the decision
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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The cb's could be across both legs and the neutral only carries the imbalance.

Phase impacts the amount of current that runs through the neutral wire, but in the worst case, all the load of a breaker is on one phase, and all the current will go through the neutral, so the neutral has to be rated to handle that.

The minimum neutral size of a feeder can't be smaller than that of the grounding conductor as per NEC 215.2B.

The normal size grounding conductor for a 30A circuit is 10ga too.
 
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JackOfDiamonds

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You all are too fast. I edited my original post.

Phase impacts the amount of current that runs through the neutral wire, but in the worst case, all the load of a breaker is on one phase, and all the current will go through the neutral, so the neutral has to be rated to handle that. So I guess the max load on the neutral is the sum of the breakers of whichever phase has the most breakers on it.
 

PCustoms

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What's more realistic:

That Reliance and the NRTL that tested this switch made a critical error?

Our that your understanding is wrong?
 

wyliesdiesels

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you have misunderstandings about the current that flows on the neutral in a split phase system

the neutral going back to the generator will ONLY carry the imbalance current between the 2 ungrounded conductors (hots). so the only way to overload the neutral would be by running more than 20a on one conductor and none on the other.... which is highly unlikely to occur.... even then, #12 is rated for more than 20a, its just limited to 20a for NM-b.

if it were mine, i would just replace it with #10 to be compliant and move on

in regards to your #1 concern, it is incorrect. there is no code you speak of.
 

mm08822

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What is the exact model # of the Reliance ProTran 2 generator transfer switch that you have?
and the PIB?
 

mm08822

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You all are too fast. I edited my original post.

Phase impacts the amount of current that runs through the neutral wire, but in the worst case, all the load of a breaker is on one phase, and all the current will go through the neutral, so the neutral has to be rated to handle that. So I guess the max load on the neutral is the sum of the breakers of whichever phase has the most breakers on it.
Maybe, but no greater than the OCP rating of the feeder source.
 

mm08822

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OP needs to provide full model/PN.

The protran 2 has several options, some 120v only, a 240v 20A and a 240v 30A.
He's moved on to where EVSEs come from.

My guess is that he has the 20A version xfer switch and that is why he found #12 neutral. The PIB or flanged receptacle can be purchased seperately so that may be where the mis-match comes in. As an example:
1738858629330.png
 

American Locomotive

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You all are too fast. I edited my original post.

Phase impacts the amount of current that runs through the neutral wire, but in the worst case, all the load of a breaker is on one phase, and all the current will go through the neutral, so the neutral has to be rated to handle that. So I guess the max load on the neutral is the sum of the breakers of whichever phase has the most breakers on it.
The neutral only has to be rated to handle the maximum load one leg can provide. So if one leg has a 20A breaker, the maximum current the neutral has to carry is 20A.

The neutral only carries the "difference" between the two legs. Here is an example:
  • L1:20A; L2:0A; N:20A
  • L1:0A; L2:20A; N:20A
  • L1:10A; L2:20A; N:10A
  • L1:20A; L2:20A;N:0A
 
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