Ergonomics-am I missing something?

[Ocean]

Hi there,

first post on the board, so bear with me for a second while I introduce myself
My name's Mauro, I write from Italy and I am a mechanics enthusiast.
My interests revolve principally around machining and machine tools, but, as anyone can guess, those fields lead naturally to having a soft spot for quality tools. It comes with the territory, I'd say.

I currently am re-doing my garage tool chest, in terms of basic tooling, such as combination wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers et cetera.
I settled on Unior for wrenches, Knipex for pliers (not going to need many, however), and Felo (well, almost) for screwdrivers/small ratchet set.

I would now like to ask you guys a question regarding screwdriver ergonomics. I had little idea of what a quality screwdriver looked (and costed!) like before digging up some information from the Internet.
I then proceeded to order a 400 series "Ergonics"sample from Felo, which I am currently evaluating, and I do not quite understand why the handle is shaped in such a way.
Sure, I can grip it very well, and then apply a surprising amount of torque, but it's as if my hand is "used" to grip stronger with the pinky, and I can't do that very easily with screwdrivers whose handle is bulkier on the back.
This seems to be a common feature among many high end manufacturers (Wiha, Wera, Facom...)

I also tried PB Swiss "Swissgrip", and I experienced the opposite problem: handles are a tad too small to grip firmly when you need to put on some serious torque, but my pinky can squeeze the last bit of the handle, so it "seems" more comfortable.

I am no expert though, given that I come from old, all mixed up screwdrivers. Perhaps I simply do not know how one is supposed to grip a screwdriver?
Is it only a matter of getting accustomed to it?
As a side note, I could source the PBs locally, but the (very) high price is a bit hard to swallow, right now.

Any input is welcome, and sorry for the rather long-winded post!

Best regards from Italy,

Mauro

 

[CWP1616L]

Is it only a matter of getting accustomed to it?

Never. Tools are like shoes, they either feel right immediately, or they don't. If you don't like the way the tool feels in your hand the instant you pick it up, put it back and move onto something else.

 

[Thumper]

Never. Tools are like shoes, they either feel right immediately, or they don't. If you don't like the way the tool feels in your hand the instant you pick it up, put it back and move onto something else.

Bingo.... X2 ^^^

 

[Nocturnal-G]

If you feel you need to apply more torque, slide in another screwdriver into the hole and use it like that.

 

[larry_g]

There are a few ways to grip a screwdriver handle. For light fast work one uses their finger tips. For real heavy work one might grip the handle with the pinky closest to the blade. Most normal is probably with the pinky toward the end of the handle away from the blade like a sword. So, How do you grip the handle most? This will give you an idea of the shape of the handle that may fit your style of use best. You may find that one style is not going to be the answer so you may have to have a few different handle styles to allow you to select the proper one for the particular job at hand. Forget the bs of having to have only one brand as different designers have a different application in mind when making the tool so buy what fits your hand and does the job you need it to do.

Also welcome to the board and great first question. Don't forget to find the introductions page and introduce your self there.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[larry_g]

If you feel you need to apply more torque, slide in another screwdriver into the hole and use it like that.

I'm going to need a picture of that process as I can't see it in my mind.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Nocturnal-G]

I'm going to need a picture of that process as I can't see it in my mind.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[mmack66]

Thanks for the visual, because I didn't get it either, though none of my screwdrivers have a hole in the handle, but some of them do have the hex bolster that I can put a wrench on for added leverage.

 

[Nocturnal-G]

Thanks for the visual, because I didn't get it either, though none of my screwdrivers have a hole in the handle, but some of them do have the hex bolster that I can put a wrench on for added leverage.

The Felo Ergo's have the hole. I personally prefer the bolster... fits better, haven't had to use it yet though.

 

[larry_g]

Thanks for the pictures. Interesting that the pictures show that in normal use the handle is short enough that the pinky is not even used.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[IndyGarage]

Of all the screwdriver grips I like Wera and Felo the best. I think they are made so the larger part of the grip sits in your palm, with your fingers in front where there is a large indentation. Wera's also have another indentation on the grip near the end, so you can spin it with just the tips of your fingers. Felo leaves this second indentation off their design.

I know some hate them but both brands seem to fit my hand perfectly - so others probably grip the screwdriver differently or have different sized hands.

The only thing I don't like about the soft grip ones is they are much harder to clean.

 

[ddo]

The shape of wera and felo came from use of play dough type material to model the grip of the hand. In one of Wera's brocures they show a hand gripping green clay and side by side that with a handle of their screwdrivers and they are very similar.

Wera and Felo have always felt comfortable to me but its personal preference and no real science to it. There's no universal way to design a handle because hand size varies, as do the repetitive stress injuries and sensitivities each has developed over the years. As such finding the right screwdriver handle varies from person to person. There's no way they can make one that is perfect for each user. They can just make something that someone might like.

 

[Ocean]

Hi,

thanks very much for the replies, you guys are great!
I know it all boils down to personal preference, and that no single handle can "fit them all". Answering one of the questions, I normally grip the screwdriver with the pinky toward the end of the handle. That's why Felo's handles felt a bit odd: it's almost like my pinky "felt" the missing taper to the cap of the handle.

I am no professional "screwdriver turner", so I just wondered whether I just did not "get it", after seeing that many manufacturers use this (or variations thereof) style of handle.

I must admit it's also a bit of a cost/availability lock-in: perhaps Swissgrips are better, but gosh, are they expensive!

One final note: are Felos series 500 any different (handle wise) from the 400 ergonics?

Thanks again!

 

[crewchief888]

personally i dont like comfort grip, ergo, screwdrivers, ratchets or hard handled ratchets

screwdriver fav's
#1 traditional SO hard handle
#2 old mac hard handle
#3 old SK hard handle

 

[woody 73]

Never. Tools are like shoes, they either feel right immediately, or they don't. If you don't like the way the tool feels in your hand the instant you pick it up, put it back and move onto something else.

On the Money as they say.

 

[N.I.]

Hi,


One final note: are Felos series 500 any different (handle wise) from the 400 ergonics?

If you find the ergonomic series a bit bulky then try the frico /500 series.

They are slimmer and in my opinion a lot easier for one handed use and light finger turning.

 

[N.I.]

personally i dont like comfort grip, ergo, screwdrivers, ratchets or hard handled ratchets

screwdriver fav's
#1 traditional SO hard handle
#2 old mac hard handle
#3 old SK hard handle

Can I ask why you don't like ergonomic screwdrivers?

I have a few hand handles Snap Ons and just use them as beaters.

The Felo frico I have blow them out of the water for comfort, amount of torque I can apply and especially for one handed use and finger tip turning.

The only place I like the hard handles is on the pry bars. I find that the square handle gives me a feel for the angle of the bar without having to look at it.

 

[retrobuilder]

Here is an excellent design website resource to explore:

Search for Core77 - an international industrial design on the internet.

Design, human factors, ergonomics, color, innovation, manufacturing..etc

Another resource is IDSA.org

 

[Ocean]

Thanks to everybody who replied!

I am very happy to have a confirmation that the Frico/500 series are indeed slimmer. It was almost noticeable from the photos, but without holding one in the hand, it would have been difficult to know for sure.

Only other option I am considering (given that it will have to be an online order from Amazon...around here, apart from PB Swiss, I can only find Beta, Pastorino ($$$) and Bahco high end ($$$) ) is a set of Wihas, of which I already have a sample (Softfinish slotted head, 3,5 x 100, feels nice in the hand).

I'll keep you posted!

 

[Ocean]

Well, I had promised to keep you guys posted, so here comes an update.

In the end, I settled for a set of Wihas, slotted and Phillips. Unfortunately, my local supplier (one of a few which had Wihas available on their racks) had run out of Pozi drivers, so I'll have to wait a little more for those.
Apart from this, I must say I am 100% satisfied with the screwdrivers: the handle is a perfect fit for my hand (perhaps due to it being noticeably longer than an equivalent Felo), and the heads are very strong. Well, they surely are stronger than every screw I have encountered so far!

To summarize: good job on the drivers, Wiha!

I am now looking for a good set of spanners (wrenches in North American English), and would like to buy italian...I know for a fact that USAG is french (or was it british?) owned; that leaves only Beta Tools as an option. I have noticed, however, that they do not stamp "Made in Italy" on their spanners, and I have always wondered why.
I am not a "COO freak", but I would be pleased to know where my first set of spanners was forged/manufactured.

 

[Kracin]

i've had a few different wera's from the chiseldrivers in a short flat, to an extremely long and large handle. and the handles felt great when i used them, so i just picke dup an entire electrical set of VDE plus. and they feel great as well. i love the wera design, although it's funny to see peoples faces when they first look at it, but once you hand them the driver in the workplace when they ask if you have a screwdriver (or chisel or something to pry with...chiseldrivers...) and they grip the handle, they look at it completely different. it looks odd, but it feels natural and the shape actually helps to get a much better torque on it. the one thing i don't like is, **** gets dirty, greasy, black... and its tough to clean the handles sometimes because they have a rubbery grip area, which is great for use, but hard for cleanup sometimes. can't have the best of all worlds i suppose.

 

[N.I.]

Good choice on the screwdrivers.

For Beta spanners, this video may interest you -

Yes Italian made.

A lot of Beta stuff is rebranded. If they stamped Italy on what they do make it would be rather obvious just how much they have outsourced.

Sadly it is a growing trend.

 

[neophyte]

Well, I had promised to keep you guys posted, so here comes an update.

In the end, I settled for a set of Wihas, slotted and Phillips. Unfortunately, my local supplier (one of a few which had Wihas available on their racks) had run out of Pozi drivers, so I'll have to wait a little more for those.
Apart from this, I must say I am 100% satisfied with the screwdrivers: the handle is a perfect fit for my hand (perhaps due to it being noticeably longer than an equivalent Felo), and the heads are very strong. Well, they surely are stronger than every screw I have encountered so far!

To summarize: good job on the drivers, Wiha!

I am now looking for a good set of spanners (wrenches in North American English), and would like to buy italian...I know for a fact that USAG is french (or was it british?) owned; that leaves only Beta Tools as an option. I have noticed, however, that they do not stamp "Made in Italy" on their spanners, and I have always wondered why.
I am not a "COO freak", but I would be pleased to know where my first set of spanners was forged/manufactured.

USAG was/is owned by Facom, which is owned by Stanley/Black&Decker. The tools are likely made in a number of countries now. The COO of the wrenches/Spanners will vary depending on what model it is. I believe some may still be made in Italy, others are being made in Taiwan and China, and some may be made in France by facilities that Facom outsourced to. The USAG 285 and 285P wrenches should be from the same manufacturer as the Facom 440 wrenches and my understanding is that that is Rotar in Taiwan. Ratcheting wrenches are likely made in Taiwan or china as well. The 256AN and 256N wrenches may be made in France. The 291 series wrenches are the same style as the Facom 75/76 wrenches which were once made in France, then the Czech Republic, and then Taiwan or China. It's likely the USAGs would have followed the same COO. Some other styles of wrenches may still be made in Italy.

 

[Monte]

Maybe you can find NOS wrenches from Beta, USAG or Pastorino with a "Italy" stamp on them at your local dealer ?
PS: Don´t forget to buy a italian made saw from O.M.A.T.

 

[Monte]

btw. USAG....

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NoXHDRb7jzQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Ocean]

Hi everybody, and thanks for the replies!

I now have a clearer idea of what is going on, at least as far as USAG is concerned. All in all, I must say that even taking an educated guess on where a tool is coming from has become a tangled mess nowadays.
Part of this, at least in my experience, is due to the fact that many old-timer shopkeepers have no idea what happened to their tool brands during the last 15 years or so. It then becomes quite difficult and embarassing to tell them "I won't buy that tool becuse that manufacturer used to be italian, but I know for a fact that it's been outsourcing all of its stuff for some time now".
That's why I looked long and hard to find Wiha tools and other Made in Germany stuff...expensive as hell (well, not always), but ****** well made and I know that the regulations for the "Made in Germany" label are quite strict (I do speak german, that helps too.)

I have done a bit of homework, and Beta tools only mentions italian facilities as "production centers". Perhaps an email would clarify things...

Wouldn't it be easier to put the cards on the table, and say "look, this is done in ***, and it's good. This is made here, it's better, and costs slightly more. Take your pick!"

Regarding this, and considering that Betas are quite expensive, too, I wanted to ask whether Monte (or anybody else) knows how good Carolus (by Gedore) products are. I know what kind of strategy lies behind that brand (i.e. outsourcing production in order not to loose market shares, but keeping QC in-house, i.e in Germany), and I appreciate it in its opennness.
A 27 open end plus box end spanners from Carolus will set me back 90 euros (instead of 130+ for Beta or USAG). Still, buying italian would be nice. If only I could justify their price...

Thanks for everyone who'll want to chime in and reply!

 

[Monte]

The Carolus wrenches used to be german made but i don´t know if they still are because they don´t put the COO on the package/tools.... Most of the Carolus line is imported from China/Taiwan because to compete with the other import tool lines like KS Tools, BGS, Proxxon, "Beta Easy" etc. Gedore is the premium line made in Germany.
But Beta is not very expensive in italy it seems:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/BETA-42-sp15...19296?pt=Utensili_manuali&hash=item1c3231f5e0

 

[Ocean]

Monte,

thanks for your reply. I started to recheck all my online sources and yes, I must admit prices are somewhat lower than what I had expected. My figures were outdated, I guess!
Tomorrow I'll try and contact a few stores in my area, just to see what a discount I can get on a 17 spanners set.

I knew that Carolus was Gedore's cheap imported line, but I was under the impression that they were a sort of tradeoff: Taiwan manufacture, Gedore quality control.