I'm planning to install a 45000 BTU heater in my garage. There is a capped gas line next to the wall. The estimate was to run pipe up and into the attic which would be 4 feet of pipe in the attic. Then hang a reznor heater and run the vent straight up.. The estimate with my preferred customer rate is $3216. Am I off base or doe that seem high? Thanks in advance for any comments.
Estimate a little high?
- Thread starter Bob Eiler
- Start date
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
seems high, are you suppling the heater or are they?
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
yeah it seems high, there's probably not $800 worth of parts there but without seeing what your job looks like its hard to say.
tdkkart
Well-known member
A LITTLE high?? I should think so. Even if you go with the sealed combustion heater they're still under $1500 for the heater and $250ish for the vent kit.
If you go with the cheaper model heater it's under $700 plus $125 for the vent kit.
Yes, I would say a LITTLE high.
If you go with the cheaper model heater it's under $700 plus $125 for the vent kit.
Yes, I would say a LITTLE high.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
I don't know where you are located, but around here that price is outrageous. I paid just a little more than that for a house furnace and a new air conditioning unit, both Lennox.
I have a 45,000 propane heater in my garage. I hung it up myself where I wanted it, then called a guy that does that work to do finish hookup to the propane, add a flue, and run a wire over and put a thermostat in. $300 and it took him MAYBE 2 hours to do it. He ran the gas line up the inside of the wall and across the ceiling to the heater. I already had an outlet put in earlier for it, then the flue exited out through the wall.
The heater I bought and it was a 45000BTU Hamilton garage heater. I think it was just under $600 when I purchased it.
I have a 45,000 propane heater in my garage. I hung it up myself where I wanted it, then called a guy that does that work to do finish hookup to the propane, add a flue, and run a wire over and put a thermostat in. $300 and it took him MAYBE 2 hours to do it. He ran the gas line up the inside of the wall and across the ceiling to the heater. I already had an outlet put in earlier for it, then the flue exited out through the wall.
The heater I bought and it was a 45000BTU Hamilton garage heater. I think it was just under $600 when I purchased it.
I disagree, you are also paying for two skilled labors the fuel to run the truck to bring everything to you, the overhead to run their office, the warranty if anything goes wrong, insurance if the installers burn down your house. Their price sounds about right for a professional HVAC company, if its someone not licsensed who's doing work on the side, not pulling permits is a big clue there, pros always pull permits for stuff like this. It also sounds like they gave a flat rate price, meaning if something goes wrong and the time to install goes longer then expected the price doesn't change, maybe ask if they could work on time and material rate, I charge 125 an hour, could also wind up being higher that way depending on how well everything goes. If you want cheap cheap cheap the only way is to install it yourself, if you can't then pay the pros, we aren't out there to rip people off but we are not a nonprofit organization either.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Like I said, that's outrageous around here. When we had our new Lennox furnace put in, they had to take the old one out, make all new plenum's, all hookup for the ducts were in the attic. The new air conditioner had to be moved to the other side of the house, all new electric run and all new lines run. Everything installed by a qualifies, license and bonded company that had been in business for years and it was $3700.
There's no reason that one can't hang a garage heater by theirself and have the final hookups done by a licensed and bonded person. But even at your hourly wage of $125, you subtract the price of the heater off of the $3100 estimate, that comes out to a 20 hour install
danski0224
Well-known member
The only way you will know is by obtaining other competitive bids.
One thing to do is specify the make and model of the heater, or equivalent. Have the make, model or series specified by the contractor submitting the bid along with a scope of work.
Just asking "how much to install a heater here" and accepting a price without knowing what you get is not the correct approach.
This type of question will have 100 different answers.
Like I said, that's outrageous around here. When we had our new Lennox furnace put in, they had to take the old one out, make all new plenum's, all hookup for the ducts were in the attic. The new air conditioner had to be moved to the other side of the house, all new electric run and all new lines run. Everything installed by a qualifies, license and bonded company that had been in business for years and it was $3700.
There's no reason that one can't hang a garage heater by theirself and have the final hookups done by a licensed and bonded person. But even at your hourly wage of $125, you subtract the price of the heater off of the $3100 estimate, that comes out to a 20 hour install
Well, you only state a brand name, nothing about the model numbers. Same with the OP: lots of "garage heaters", and no one knows what the OP is looking for. A simple basic cheap unit heater is lots less than a sealed combustion unit with a stainless heat exchanger.
Lennox makes all kinds of stuff, from high end to bottom of the barrel builders models. If that company sells lots of furnace boxes, they get good pricing.
So, if you bought bottom of the barrel builders grade stuff (or were given same), then you probably got ripped off, too
Especially if you got a wham-bam box swap in and out in a day special. This is the type of job that price shoppers normally get. Making new plenums (or part of a plenum) isn't a big deal. You can buy "premade" pieces that get cut down, use a hand bender with cleat/screws/tape or have a machine on the truck/in the shop that does it professionally.
Installing equipment that is properly sized with good airflow is a big deal.
As far as the 20 hour install "WTF" goes, if the job is bid for 2 installers and 8 hours, there is 16 man hours, plus time to round up materials, travel time, even *gasp* a materials markup, business costs or just simply plain old profit.
One reason to have 2 people there is the roof work, in case something happens, even on a simple 4/12 pitch. Crawling around in an attic is another. If you fall, who is calling 911 for you?
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Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
The only way you will know is by obtaining other competitive bids.
One thing to do is specify the make and model of the heater, or equivalent. Have the make, model or series specified by the contractor submitting the bid along with a scope of work.
Just asking "how much to install a heater here" and accepting a price without knowing what you get is not the correct approach.
This type of question will have 100 different answers.
Well, you only state a brand name, nothing about the model numbers. Same with the OP: lots of "garage heaters", and no one knows what the OP is looking for. A simple basic cheap unit heater is lots less than a sealed combustion unit with a stainless heat exchanger.
Lennox makes all kinds of stuff, from high end to bottom of the barrel builders models. If that company sells lots of furnace boxes, they get good pricing.
So, if you bought bottom of the barrel builders grade stuff (or were given same), then you probably got ripped off, too
Making new plenums (or part of a plenum) isn't a big deal. You can buy "premade" pieces that get cut down, use a hand bender with cleat/screws/tape or have a machine on the truck/in the shop that does it professionally.
Installing equipment that is properly sized with good airflow is a big deal.
As far as the 20 hour install "WTF" goes, if the job is bid for 2 installers and 8 hours, there is 16 man hours, plus time to round up materials, travel time, even *gasp* a materials markup, business costs or just simply plain old profit.
One reason to have 2 people there is the roof work, in case something happens, even on a simple 4/12 pitch. Crawling around in an attic is another. If you fall, who is calling 911 for you?
The reason I didn't mention model numbers is that I didn't get up to go and see what it is.
As far as a hanging garage heater, they are all basically the same as far as the general unit goes. The gas pipe has to be ran no matter what type of heater is hanging. A flue has to either go through the roof or the wall depending on which way you want to run it. It's "B" Vent. It's not rocket science.
philjafo.... as far as the saying goes, "You get what you pay for" I call B.S. on that. Just because a guy owns a claw hammer and is licensed in town, does not make him a carpenter. I've seen too many so called experts toot their own horn only to create a huge *********** and then walk away. If you don't think so, read back through some of the builds on here and the problems that the owners have had to go through. You may think you're worth $3000 in your area, and very well may be. In my area, you'd be going a little hungry. Location does make a difference on pricing. That's one reason I ask members to put their location in their profile. It makes it a little easier to answer the questions.
danski0224
Well-known member
Well, the model numbers matter if you are talking price.
If you have low end builders grade stuff (which is available in 80% and 90%+ AFUE), and if you got a box swap install, then I'd wager that you may have paid more than a fair price. Wholesale cost of low end equipment (even Lennox) and basic materials may be only 1/3 of what you paid, and non-union residential HVAC companies are not known for good pay or benefits, so the
may be on you I personally don't care what model numbers you have, but I know there are 2 or 3 general series of equipment available with "good, better,best" in each range. Average Joe Schmoe reading this may not know that, but rather fixates on two things: $3700 and Lennox.
I know that $3700 and Lennox are meaningless data points without scope of work and model numbers.
I'll disagree with the "they are all the same" comment on unit heaters. They aren't all the same. Similar, yes, and you may have to look at spec sheets to find the differences (heat exchanger material, gauge, cabinet gauge, types of controls, types of motors, etc). Pricing without manufacturer model or series is pointless, no matter what location you are in.
"B" vent may not be rocket science, but it CAN be life or death if not done properly. Additionally, horizontal use of B vent is not allowed. It is not UL listed for that type of installation. Even external use of power venters is questionable on B vent.
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To the OP, I live in a high cost of living area, and that's about what I was quoted (already had the heater and gas pipe was terminated within several feet of the installation location and electric panel was also <10 ft away). There was some fiddling to be done with the vent pipe in my case, as there was a finished storage room above the attic, but even if it would have taken them 8 hours, the math didn't add up in my book. By my estimates it would have taken 6 hours doing a clean job and taking their time.
Frankly, the people I've encountered seem to want a full day's pay (8 hours at $400 per) to do any job, no matter how simple. Ultimately, after shopping around, I decided to go the DIY route and took a couple days off work and took my time with it. I'll hire out another project around the house to make up for the time spent (researching the right way to do it and installation) on this and the labor cost on those projects is 25% of the HVAC work. You have to figure what your time is worth and use it where it makes sense.
Frankly, the people I've encountered seem to want a full day's pay (8 hours at $400 per) to do any job, no matter how simple. Ultimately, after shopping around, I decided to go the DIY route and took a couple days off work and took my time with it. I'll hire out another project around the house to make up for the time spent (researching the right way to do it and installation) on this and the labor cost on those projects is 25% of the HVAC work. You have to figure what your time is worth and use it where it makes sense.
danski0224
Well-known member
Just wondering how your actual time spent on the job compared to your "estimate" and what the cost of the "time off" from work was worth?
And the opposite end of this is "customers" that expect a professional to show up equipped for the task at hand and pay $20 an hour, or less, and watch the clock every second, stop the clock when you are "done" then tie you up with 20 minutes of discussion (aka: data mining) on their next project... that is promised, but may not come.
Or, they forget about getting all of the stuff ready to bring to that "quickie" job.
Or, they have the stuff onsite, and it is wrong.
I've pretty much given up on "hourly" work, unless I can string together several local calls in one day (hard to do with any regularity), and even then, there is a minimum charge.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
I don't expect a $20/hr. job out of anyone, and I will pay if the job is worth it with no problem. But when a contractor get's out of his truck and starts right off blowing smoke up my *** about how this is gonna be a pretty big job and so on and so forth, I'' let him rattle off while it's going in one ear and out the other.
My ex FIL was in HVAC for years and I helped him quite often. I see the high markups that goes on the merchandise. I used to make prototype lighting for aircraft. I see why a place like Boeing is getting charged $20,000 for a set of wingtip lights. Most of it is because the ones putting it together doesn't know what it's like to put in a full 8 hrs. of work in an 8 hr. day.
And when I made the comment about the heaters being basically the same, I know that there is "good, better, best", but that doesn't have one thing to do with running a gas line to it.
As far as what it cost for my house furnace, again, I was using that for comparison for location. It's a little more involved to put in a whole house furnace, and relocate air an conditioning unit plus run all new wiring, than it is to hang and plumb a 45,000BTU hanging garage heater.
And like I said before, location dictates what a lot of things cost. When no one was doing anything at all when the economy first soured, there were a lot of individuals looking for work. there was competition. Now, for some reason, every swinging **** out there thinks what they do is worth a few bars of gold. Myself, I've done enough and been around enough people in the trade that I know what a fair price is. Some don't know, and those are the ones that get taken advantage of.
My ex FIL was in HVAC for years and I helped him quite often. I see the high markups that goes on the merchandise. I used to make prototype lighting for aircraft. I see why a place like Boeing is getting charged $20,000 for a set of wingtip lights. Most of it is because the ones putting it together doesn't know what it's like to put in a full 8 hrs. of work in an 8 hr. day.
And when I made the comment about the heaters being basically the same, I know that there is "good, better, best", but that doesn't have one thing to do with running a gas line to it.
As far as what it cost for my house furnace, again, I was using that for comparison for location. It's a little more involved to put in a whole house furnace, and relocate air an conditioning unit plus run all new wiring, than it is to hang and plumb a 45,000BTU hanging garage heater.
And like I said before, location dictates what a lot of things cost. When no one was doing anything at all when the economy first soured, there were a lot of individuals looking for work. there was competition. Now, for some reason, every swinging **** out there thinks what they do is worth a few bars of gold. Myself, I've done enough and been around enough people in the trade that I know what a fair price is. Some don't know, and those are the ones that get taken advantage of.
wornoutoldman
Well-known member
I would buy the unit myself and get the best price I could find, then shop the labor.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HEA7LQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Bottom of the page shows install parts and thermosta for 538$ all in.
Add $500 to $1000 for labor (seems more than fair to me) and your in it for a less than half your original estimate.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HEA7LQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Bottom of the page shows install parts and thermosta for 538$ all in.
Add $500 to $1000 for labor (seems more than fair to me) and your in it for a less than half your original estimate.
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danski, nobody is talking about working for $20/hr. Show me something that suggests $400/hr is the going rate for HVAC work. I know it's not. If they can get it, all the power to them, but it won't be from me. Had they quoted $200-250, I would have paid it...still painful but within the bounds of going rate.
As for the time it took me, I'm not in a competition with contractors. If I'm going to do a job, it'll take me 2-2.5x the amount of time it takes a contractor, and I know that going in. The job in question...I actually decided to ditch the forced air solution for a couple of reasons and got a mini-split heat pump. That would have taken the contractor 6 hours, plus travel, and 3 hours for the electrician. Ballpark is $300/hr. (including full rate for 2 hours travel). There is an additional 50% mark up on the equipment which was not factored into that hourly figure. The high side quote was $500/hr and this guy was upselling me to oversized equipment (and I specifically asked him not to spec more than 2 tons).
My memory is a little sketchy but I spread the work out over 5 days, 25 hours all in, plus another 2 hrs the following week to clean/fix up the lineset covers. Included in that was 8 hours for a standing pressure test, leak checking and deep vac (none of the contractors were going to spend that much time, I did for peace of mind since I make minimum wage). That's a little over 2x the time it would have taken a pro, plus my time doing research, ordering parts, supplies, tools, etc.
Interestingly enough, I'm constantly looking for good business opportunities, and one day I hope to quite my day job and start something of my own that will carry me well into retirement. The margins around me on HVAC work are so high that I could charge a reasonable amount to float a small operation (<10 people) and establish the company and a solid reputation as long as I can cover start up costs. That's in contrast to my other ideas, which are a bit sketchy during the first 3 years of operation.
As for the time it took me, I'm not in a competition with contractors. If I'm going to do a job, it'll take me 2-2.5x the amount of time it takes a contractor, and I know that going in. The job in question...I actually decided to ditch the forced air solution for a couple of reasons and got a mini-split heat pump. That would have taken the contractor 6 hours, plus travel, and 3 hours for the electrician. Ballpark is $300/hr. (including full rate for 2 hours travel). There is an additional 50% mark up on the equipment which was not factored into that hourly figure. The high side quote was $500/hr and this guy was upselling me to oversized equipment (and I specifically asked him not to spec more than 2 tons).
My memory is a little sketchy but I spread the work out over 5 days, 25 hours all in, plus another 2 hrs the following week to clean/fix up the lineset covers. Included in that was 8 hours for a standing pressure test, leak checking and deep vac (none of the contractors were going to spend that much time, I did for peace of mind since I make minimum wage).
That's a little over 2x the time it would have taken a pro, plus my time doing research, ordering parts, supplies, tools, etc. Interestingly enough, I'm constantly looking for good business opportunities, and one day I hope to quite my day job and start something of my own that will carry me well into retirement. The margins around me on HVAC work are so high that I could charge a reasonable amount to float a small operation (<10 people) and establish the company and a solid reputation as long as I can cover start up costs. That's in contrast to my other ideas, which are a bit sketchy during the first 3 years of operation.
Do you bring your own steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it so you can save a few bucks?
When someone calls the company I work for with their own equipment we politely decline bidding the job.
The quoted price is a little on the high side for my area but there are some unknowns that could push it that high, a very steep roof or one that is rubber, wood shake, tile, etc will require me to add in the cost of a roofer to insure a proper leakproof flashing. Permit costs can vary, right now it costs us right around 125$ for a permit for an average furnace change out, I've been told that some areas here in MI now charge over 400$ for the same thing, an area with strict code enforcement might require an electrical permit as well as an electrician to run the very simple circuit to the heater, that adds cost as well.
Several bids specifying the same equipment will tell you if that is high, it may simply be the going rate in the area.
Gets multiple bids....tell them exactly what you want and insist on a detailed quote breakdown (tell them exactly how you want the quote prepared)- let them walk if they won't quote it your way. I'd say 2k is the right range......
danski0224
Well-known member
Average HVAC company profit is 2-3%.
Average HVAC business failure rate after 5 years: 95%. Only restaurants are higher.
Yup, the company I work for runs right at 3%, not much room for error.
I think part of the reason for the high failure rate is that the majority of new HVAC businesses are started by techs, even the best tech won't succeed if the don't have good business skills, on the flip side someone with good business skills may not understand the tech side well enough.
Ron Lombardo
Well-known member
Philjafo ... I agree
The heater, B vent flue pipe thru the roof, flashing, hangers, t stat , wire, electrical supplies and gas pipe , valve etc ... 1200.00 materials plus labor 2 Technicians 3000.00 and tax sounds about right ...
We have been in business for 42 years as an HVAC / Mechanical Co ... we dont bid this type of work ...we have customers who know we are honest and fair ... they call us we do the install and send them the bill.
HVAC Business is not that profitable as the others have mentioned above ...
Ron
The heater, B vent flue pipe thru the roof, flashing, hangers, t stat , wire, electrical supplies and gas pipe , valve etc ... 1200.00 materials plus labor 2 Technicians 3000.00 and tax sounds about right ...
We have been in business for 42 years as an HVAC / Mechanical Co ... we dont bid this type of work ...we have customers who know we are honest and fair ... they call us we do the install and send them the bill.
HVAC Business is not that profitable as the others have mentioned above ...
Ron
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I was just on a job today that we were underbid on 6 years ago, the furnace never went into second stage because of poor installation and I found 4 code violations. You do get what you pay for, this furnace worked but for six years the customer was unhappy with it, in the long run the lowest bidder cost him higher utility bills and a cold home and now he has to pay for repairs. Anyone ever live in a condo or manufactured home, those are always done by the lowest bidder just ask anyone that's lived in one how long the original appliances lasted. It's been said before get a couple bids, ask for references, ask to see licenses and proof of insurance, ask about permits. Only you can decide if the price is too high.
dave67fd
Well-known member
I called my local gas supplier. Many of them do installations with licensed installers. Here they charge about $80/hr.
I purchased my own 75k heater and horiz. vent kit.(~$700 delivered) I installed the heater, ran the electrical and thermostat. Two guys did the gas pipe (about 10' and all the fittings) Installed the vent, pulled the permit ($65), tested, delivered and then filled the 120gal tank and fired and tested the heater for $500 (propane was $300). So i'm in for about $1500. The $500 was quoted to me and didn't change when they were done.
With a more expensive vertical roof venting system and another half a day i would think you shouldn't be over the $2500 mark. Depending on the heater system you purchased. A HVAC company would probably charge you $1500 for the same heater.
I purchased my own 75k heater and horiz. vent kit.(~$700 delivered) I installed the heater, ran the electrical and thermostat. Two guys did the gas pipe (about 10' and all the fittings) Installed the vent, pulled the permit ($65), tested, delivered and then filled the 120gal tank and fired and tested the heater for $500 (propane was $300). So i'm in for about $1500. The $500 was quoted to me and didn't change when they were done.
With a more expensive vertical roof venting system and another half a day i would think you shouldn't be over the $2500 mark. Depending on the heater system you purchased. A HVAC company would probably charge you $1500 for the same heater.
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Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
danski0224
Well-known member
The airplane is assembled from parts that all have detailed drawings and specifications.
Excluding counterfeit parts, everything made by the low bidder must meet very specific standards and measures.
Buildings, especially on the low end of the price spectrum, residential or commercial, may not have detailed mechanical plans or specs.
In fact, in my experience, most single family residential plans in the $750k and under market do not include any type of mechanical plan at all excluding a generic furnace loaction. Specifications are typical boilerplate language extracted from the IRC and local codes. A building built "to code" is simply the cheapest legal way to build something.
Small commercial buildings, especially strip mall places, are no different.
There are many places to cut corners on a residential or light commercial HVAC system that cause inefficiency and poor operation, despite having the apperance of "working".
Larger commercial, institutional and industrial buildings often have mechanical plans and specs, but mechanical overlays are rare, leaving site coordination to the trades involved. This may or may not go well. It is impossible to have ductwork, structural steel, sprinklers and lighting all occupying the exact same physical point in space, yet this happens quite often, and something has to give. Oh, the schedule keeps moving forward and the GC or Architect or Engineer does not believe in timely responses to RFI's.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, residential developments and semi/full custom homes may have a set of plans that details the architectural and structural features, but it is quite rare to have the architect or designer actually consider the mechanical trades as part of the design, leaving the tradespeople onsite to work it out or fight it out. I have witnessed crippling mechanical system "adjustments" to save a few square feet of builders profit or "uncompromising design" in 7,000+ sf homes costing over $2 million.
A "low bid" HVAC system in an environment lacking plans, specifications and trained/competent oversight (code officials, general contractor or trade contractor) is not the same as an airplane assembled from low bid parts.
Unfortunately, corners can be cut even given the proper parts in an aerospace environment. Space shuttle disasters are a prime example. Both disasters were the result of known and documented problems, with parts, assembly and internal NASA management *long* before any lives and equipment were lost. SRB O rings and cold weather were a known issue. Foam was falling off and documented for 20 years before it took out a wing edge. Airplanes fall out of the sky from poor maintenance or cost cutting measures to boost corporate profits.
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Just curious, do you know approx what they bill out for residential hvac work averaged hourly? I'd like to know for comparison's sake (to my area).
I'd agree with you, but even go so far as to say a majority of those failed businesses were at the hands of people that didn't know the first thing about managing a business. That's the reason a lot of small businesses never make it out of infancy.
Thanks for the comments. The estimate wasn't itemized. I should receive two more estimates in a couple of days. I did go online and found the heater was in the $649-$680 range. Guessing the wholesale price to be around $500. With 100% profit, $1000 should be about right. That leaves $2216 to run 7 ft of pipe straight up into the attic, then 4 ft over. Hang the heater, install the vent and hook up the electricity. The breaker box is 4 ft from the heater. The HVAC rep even stated the installation couldn't be easier. I have no problem paying $100-125, but one would think the heater could be installed in 8 hrs.
I know you get what you pay for, but not always. As an automobile machinist I have fixed a lot of cyl. heads of people who didn't get what they paid for.
The next two estimates will be informative of the going rates around here.
I know you get what you pay for, but not always. As an automobile machinist I have fixed a lot of cyl. heads of people who didn't get what they paid for.
The next two estimates will be informative of the going rates around here.
danski0224
Well-known member
"Itemized" is the wrong word.
You need a scope of work.
The scope of work would include the heater brand name and model (but maybe not the size/capacity) and the major steps of installation (vent location, for example).
"Profit" is also wrong, that is "markup".
An estimate with "itemization" or a "breakdown" invites too many "I can get it for $XXXX" discussions or "That's too much per hour" for labor discussions, often with people that have no understanding of pricing a job properly. I'd provide a price for the installation, tell you what I would do, maybe explain why X unit was better or different than Y unit, but most importantly, I would try to convince you that I am the best choice to install your system for the agreed amount.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
That's what most do is try to convince the homeowner that they are the best choice. That's what puts the money in your pocket. It's called salesmanship, plain and simple. Why buy this bridge here, when what you REALLY need is the Brooklyn bridge. No difference with "Profit" and "Markup". One equals the other. If I "mark it up this much" I can make this much "Profit".
Basically, that's what got this country in the ****** shape it's in. I'd much rather pay someone that's not "Pushing his wares" on me, but does give me an explanation, than someone telling me how good they are and that I'm making a mistake if I don't go with them. A frickin' "Dog & Pony Show" isn't getting my money.
Just as now, you are trying to tell me, the OP, and others, why they should spend more money. The OP ask a question about a heater. He thinks the estimate might be a little high, so he proposes the question on here looking for some answers as to what others might have paid, or what they think. I think it's too high, a few others thinks it's too high, and when I put my viewpoint out there about what I paid to have a complete furnace install in the house, you want to try and tell me basically that I got screwed.
So if for instance the OP goes online, finds a heater he wants, and can get it for $680, $780, why would he want to pay someone $1500 for the same heater? Like I said before, I worked with my ex-FIL helping him out off and on for the 16 years I was married to his daughter. I know what the hell "profit" and "markup" is. I've seen him a few times put the screws to people, me included.
When I added on my Family Room I had to run the heat registers out to it. A guy that worked in the business in HVAC saves me a fortune. He told me if I want to drive here and pick up the items, he'll give me the list and he'd let me have them at his cost. From what I paid and what it would have cost me to call someone else in to do it complete, I paid about a fourth of what others wanted, just because I didn't pay "markup" for their "profit".
danski0224
Well-known member
For what it's worth, I wouldn't break out the items, so the "cost" of the heater wouldn't be an issue. It would be an installed system price, take it or leave it. I don't do dog and pony shows.
If the "I can get it for $***" comes up, I'd take that off the price+tax and tell the HO to size it, provide the item and then warrantee it themselves. If they think they can get the materials cheaper, I tell them to do so: make your own list, go get it, deliver it, and you are paying me $*** an hour while I wait for you to go get more if you are wrong.
My skills, whether it is sizing equipment, designing a layout or even where to get that odd item is valuable- not a commodity to give away for free. If someone wants free, they can use the tools and knowledge they have and obtain it on their own. It is a delicate balance to provide enough information so the client makes an informed choice on the better contractor while not giving away enough so that info is provided to the low bid hack guy. Homeowners have no shame in talking with someone that is knowledgeable and then awarding the job and info to the least qualified.
I know of a HVAC supplier that sells retail over the counter in my area, and they screw over every homeowner that comes in there thinking that they'll get one over "on the man" and fix it themselves. The joke is on them. Stuff is sold at 100%+ markup.
Homeowners searching "prices" online and only sourcing the cheapest labor for their project cause their own problems. I see it every day, and across many trades, and get to fix some of it.
And if you are happy with your HVAC install, then you didn't get screwed, nor did I say you got screwed. You were sold something at a price you were willing to pay. But, I suspect you do not know what the contractor paid for the equipment, and armed with that data and "what you feel is fair" (which is an arbritary number) for the rest of the job, your opinion may change.
But, it is funny how no one tries to dissect the fees and billing of doctors and their hourly rate.
If the "I can get it for $***" comes up, I'd take that off the price+tax and tell the HO to size it, provide the item and then warrantee it themselves. If they think they can get the materials cheaper, I tell them to do so: make your own list, go get it, deliver it, and you are paying me $*** an hour while I wait for you to go get more if you are wrong.
My skills, whether it is sizing equipment, designing a layout or even where to get that odd item is valuable- not a commodity to give away for free. If someone wants free, they can use the tools and knowledge they have and obtain it on their own. It is a delicate balance to provide enough information so the client makes an informed choice on the better contractor while not giving away enough so that info is provided to the low bid hack guy. Homeowners have no shame in talking with someone that is knowledgeable and then awarding the job and info to the least qualified.
I know of a HVAC supplier that sells retail over the counter in my area, and they screw over every homeowner that comes in there thinking that they'll get one over "on the man" and fix it themselves. The joke is on them. Stuff is sold at 100%+ markup.
Homeowners searching "prices" online and only sourcing the cheapest labor for their project cause their own problems. I see it every day, and across many trades, and get to fix some of it.
And if you are happy with your HVAC install, then you didn't get screwed, nor did I say you got screwed. You were sold something at a price you were willing to pay. But, I suspect you do not know what the contractor paid for the equipment, and armed with that data and "what you feel is fair" (which is an arbritary number) for the rest of the job, your opinion may change.
But, it is funny how no one tries to dissect the fees and billing of doctors and their hourly rate.
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But, it is funny how no one tries to dissect the fees and billing of doctors and their hourly rate.
You haven't worked for an insurance company have you? Most doctors are squeezed like a lemon between the insurance company they pay to protect them and the insurance company that writes the check for services rendered.
Anyway, I feel like we're straying from the point and this is a conversation about why danski is a great guy and worth his weight in gold. That may very well be true. My point (and the OP's as well) was the range of "rates" charged for a job fits into a bell curve for his area. 75% of the quotes would fall into the middle, 12.5% could be the hacks you describe, and the last 12.5% could be the elite of the profession. (Now, it's arguable if money actually buys knowledge and professionalism, most would say it doesn't work out that way) The point is, the OP is trying to figure out, for his area and this job, does the quote seem to fall within the range of the 75% or not. Even in a high COL area, I think it falls into the upper 12.5%.
ForceFed70
Well-known member
Recently I had 3 quotes to do almost the exact same thing the OP has requested. 75k-100k unit heater - supplied and installed. Gas riser outside of building but no gas plumbing inside the building yet.
All 3 quotes were within 10% of each other, all came it at around $3000
I do live in an area with a high cost of living tho.
All 3 quotes were within 10% of each other, all came it at around $3000
I do live in an area with a high cost of living tho.
RCStocker
Well-known member
Even if you are union that is insane.
I know contract labor is hih. If your parts are $1500 a das labor should be $800 to $1200 with a helper depending on where you are. No contractor, plumber, appliance repair man I know has a service call under $100 an hour anymore. Not here in California. I have a frend that does home appliance repair and he has a fleet of trucks. he charges $135 min to go out and change the fuse on a dryer. By the time you pay insurance, workmans comp, business lisence and labor and all the things that go along with him then add the cost of the shop and running it.
My dentest here in Califrornia charges 3 tiems what the dentest do in Indiana for the same thing. It does not matter if it a tooth pull or a crown. It is 3 time more here.
I got a 4 ton AC unit and new furnice pluss new duct work for 4 grand.
Do the job yourslef. Plumbing is like playing with tinker toys. If you need to thread a pipe go to a rental center and rent the eqipment. I have it all and would loan it to you if you were close.
Even the Upholster who sells frabric doubles his money on the fabric. If you bring your own the labor goes up. It is a given You need to make so much or the job is not worth it.
If you have someone work on your home make sure they are lisenced or bonded. If they get hurt you home owners will cover it. I am not one to go that route. I trade labor with my friends all the time. If you can turn a wrench you can install a simple HW heater.
The first one I put in by myself was when my parents left me home to go to a funeral for the weekend. We had good neighbors and frineds if I needed anything.
Mind you I was 6'-1" at the age of 12 and wore a size 12 shoe. My dad had a new Hot water heater to install. I pulled the old one and put the new one in. Soaped up the joints to make sure they were not leaking and turned on the gas and I fired it up. Worked the first time. I was only 13 years old. I took the old one out of the basement and put it out on trash day for the man who went around picking up scrap metal.
If I can do it at 13 you can do it as an adult. It is a no brainer. My grand father on ones side was a contractor and machinist and the other one was a farmer. My dad had rentals and I helped him for years installing toilets, roof, sinks, etc. By the time I was 13 there was not much in the way of plumbing I could not do. I could even chace threads on a lathe. If you are on here you own tools. Don't be afraid to use them. All the help you need is in a demo somewhere on here. Get the pipe tape out and start turning the wrench.
I know contract labor is hih. If your parts are $1500 a das labor should be $800 to $1200 with a helper depending on where you are. No contractor, plumber, appliance repair man I know has a service call under $100 an hour anymore. Not here in California. I have a frend that does home appliance repair and he has a fleet of trucks. he charges $135 min to go out and change the fuse on a dryer. By the time you pay insurance, workmans comp, business lisence and labor and all the things that go along with him then add the cost of the shop and running it.
My dentest here in Califrornia charges 3 tiems what the dentest do in Indiana for the same thing. It does not matter if it a tooth pull or a crown. It is 3 time more here.
I got a 4 ton AC unit and new furnice pluss new duct work for 4 grand.
Do the job yourslef. Plumbing is like playing with tinker toys. If you need to thread a pipe go to a rental center and rent the eqipment. I have it all and would loan it to you if you were close.
Even the Upholster who sells frabric doubles his money on the fabric. If you bring your own the labor goes up. It is a given You need to make so much or the job is not worth it.
If you have someone work on your home make sure they are lisenced or bonded. If they get hurt you home owners will cover it. I am not one to go that route. I trade labor with my friends all the time. If you can turn a wrench you can install a simple HW heater.
The first one I put in by myself was when my parents left me home to go to a funeral for the weekend. We had good neighbors and frineds if I needed anything.
Mind you I was 6'-1" at the age of 12 and wore a size 12 shoe. My dad had a new Hot water heater to install. I pulled the old one and put the new one in. Soaped up the joints to make sure they were not leaking and turned on the gas and I fired it up. Worked the first time. I was only 13 years old. I took the old one out of the basement and put it out on trash day for the man who went around picking up scrap metal.
If I can do it at 13 you can do it as an adult. It is a no brainer. My grand father on ones side was a contractor and machinist and the other one was a farmer. My dad had rentals and I helped him for years installing toilets, roof, sinks, etc. By the time I was 13 there was not much in the way of plumbing I could not do. I could even chace threads on a lathe. If you are on here you own tools. Don't be afraid to use them. All the help you need is in a demo somewhere on here. Get the pipe tape out and start turning the wrench.
Steevo
Well-known member
I spent two days (6~7 hr days) on my shop heater installation, and that was after I had run the gas line, power and thermostat wiring to the location prior to sheet rocking.
If a professional can come in and knock the whole thing out in a day, they should be well paid for it.
If a professional can come in and knock the whole thing out in a day, they should be well paid for it.
Seems high, but I'm not in the business. I recently bought a 45k Reznor heater new for about a fifth of that total price, including the pipes and a thermostat. The labor to run brass pipe from the basement to the garage was about 4 hours of work, by one guy - all meeting code. We still need to mount the heater and vent it through the brick (it's in the corner, so pretty straight forward), but I don't expect that and materials to get anywhere near the $3200. I also don't expect it to take two guys to do, but again - every situation is different.
I would get some other quotes and compare. You definitely want someone qualified to do the work and not just Joe Schmoe who will do it for pennies on the dollar, but having you regret it down the road.
edit: I had already run the wiring for the thermostat through the wall, over to where I wanted it, so some time/cost was saved there. YRMV.
I would get some other quotes and compare. You definitely want someone qualified to do the work and not just Joe Schmoe who will do it for pennies on the dollar, but having you regret it down the road.
edit: I had already run the wiring for the thermostat through the wall, over to where I wanted it, so some time/cost was saved there. YRMV.
Early this spring (2012) I bought a Reznor 60,000 BTU propane ceiling hung unit. About $1,000 delivered with a vent kit and thermostat.
Had a professional install done by a local HVAC shop. They charged me $400 total. Then had the propane company set the tank and run a line with regulator to the garage wall...free! Only had to pay for the propane.
Had a professional install done by a local HVAC shop. They charged me $400 total. Then had the propane company set the tank and run a line with regulator to the garage wall...free! Only had to pay for the propane.