etching gone very wrong

[flatstick]

Got some time to finally paint my new garage and get going on the floor. I etched it with muratic acid and when it dried it was all white. reading articles and talking to Scotty I tired liquid TSP in my power washer, scrubbed and rinsed , no change when it dried. next I tried powder TSP mixed in hot water , scrub and rinse, no change. went out and bought a new 3,000 psi $400 power washer with a scrubbing attachment, you guessed it no change. tried to etch a few bad spots again and flush well with water , no change. i did apply baking soda the first time I etched to neutralize it. I have spent at least 20 hours on 3/4 f the garage trying to get this right. now I have a horrible looking white surface with fiberglass strings sticking out of the top. can not believe how bad my new garage floor is looking after spending around $1,200 to make it look good. I went this route to save money over flooring like racedeck, now they have the last laugh.

 

[LXCam]

edit my edit: oops I must have deleted my original comment, sorry bout that.

One more thing, is this a slab you had installed and did you use fiber-crete??.

 

[flatstick]

I had the slab installed, asking the mason if they used any type of sealer on it. he said no sealer at all. not sure exactly what fiber crete is but there were some small stands ( I assumed it was fiberglass ) barely sticking up in a couple of the corners of the garage, before I started.

 

[flatstick]

here are a couple of pictures after the first etch .... the first pic is the part where nothing was done yet ... http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/flatsticks/IMG_6050_zps52406576.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/flatsticks/IMG_6049_zpsde94feae.jpg


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/flatsticks/IMG_6048_zps1b75d4b9.jpg


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/flatsticks/IMG_6047_zpsa0a76850.jpg

 

[deter]

so you etched your concrete floor, and then it was etched..... what exactly did you think would happen?

 

[LXCam]

Well I'm not really able to get decent resolution to make a comment but..

It sounds like he did, fibercrete is nothing more then they add chopped fiberglass to the mix. It makes the concrete very strong and less prone to cracking. The down side is the amount of exposed fibers, with time and traffic they wear off and no ones the wiser.

The problem it seams for you is when you etched it, you cleared off the cream exposing substantially more fiber. I'm not exactly sure the best way for you to go about prepping it for paint at this point. You could try a diamond cup stone, that'll basically "sand" off the exposed fibers, then you could paint.

 

[deter]

well yeah, etching dissolves the top layer of the concrete. If you use straight acid without diluting, well, it will dissolve more/more quickly

 

[bmwpower]

Are you etching it to put epoxy down? I assume so, but you didn't state so. If you are, why are you concerned about what the surface looks like? It will be covered with epoxy.

If you are concerned about the fibers, sand them off now or lay down first thin layer of epoxy and then sand them off. First thin layer of epoxy will help the strands "stick up" and easier to sand away.

 

[Warrenator]

I have heard you can flame off the strands with a blowtorch. Might carefully try it in a corner.

 

[LXCam]

I have heard you can flame off the strands with a blowtorch. Might carefully try it in a corner.

Oh that's a good idea, hadn't thought of that one.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Use a weed burner that has a wide flat flame and you can hold it standing up.

Seriously, I will never again use the fiberglass in any concrete. My building slab does not have it thank goodness, but the outside cement does and it doesn't do anything to help the cracking situation. Its short strand and has little strength in this respect. Its more of a scam than anything. Use reinforcing wire, or better yet, rebar grids on chairs and do it right. Mine has reinforcing wire and I really wished it had the rebar, but it only has a couple of hairline cracks in it after 14 years so I cannot complain.

Charles

 

[bazzateer]

No fibre in my floor but it is in the ramp/drive section - this also has mesh so should stand up to the traffic it will encounter -it stretches into the alley meaning anything could drive over the edge of it.

 

[flatstick]

so you etched your concrete floor, and then it was etched..... what exactly did you think would happen?

I expected the floor to be etched , without any white residue so I can proceed with coating my floor .

 

[flatstick]

to get to the question why was the floor etched. I purchased product from Legacy and was told I had to to etch the new concrete floor before applying the Standard Epoxy Clear Sealer. from there I was going to either use the Clear Urethane or the SD followed by the Clear Urethane. starting to see why members here go with the porcelain tile solution. bad enough that I have money ******* in product sitting around but if this white color can not be removed then why bother applying anything to the floor since it will affect bonding ? the last time I etched concrete was on my porch of my old house. it went like to was suppose to without any white residue remaining. the floor has a nice gritty feel to it so it seems to be ready for the sealer but the residue and fibers are now my issue. hoping to figure out a way to remove the residue first since it does not seem to be getting any better. to be honest it seems like the more water I apply to it the worse it gets , is that possible ?

 

[pepi]

Oh that's a good idea, hadn't thought of that one.

I have heard you can flame off the strands with a blowtorch. Might carefully try it in a corner.

I agree that is the most logical and quickest approach, sanding could/might create low spots and dust and take forever.

 

[creativecars]

I would get back in touch with Legacy and explain the situation. It’s their product you want to be successful with, and see what the recommend.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Snatched this from a recent post that Shea made:


Re: help post acid etch
That white powdery residue is calcium carbonate which is from the result of etching. It will occur when you don't flush and rinse your slab well enough. Usually though a power washer will remove it.

Try wetting down the concrete and scrub it with a salt remover/cleaner. Then use the power washer to rinse it. If that doesn't work, then re-introducing a mild acid solution to your floor again will emulsify the residue. Neutralize it, flush the floor with lots of water, then use your power washer on it.
__________________
- Shea



Website : www.allgaragefloors.com

 

[flatstick]

do we have any suggestions on what I might try as a salt remover/cleaner ? I did purchase the power washer as members had said it would get the calcium carbonate removed. I did etch a couple of small sections that were really white last night. while it was drying it seems that the areas were still white like before. is there another acid , etcher I can get to try and remove the calcium carbonate ?

 

[Coloradotrailrider]

This is what was on my floor after etching, I believe the same white residue the OP is talking about. The main thing that I did was to not let the floor dry with this on it. I etched the floor, rinsed it and immediately power washed it.

As you can see in the pic the areas that had been power washed and the areas that had not been yet. I had read on line to not let the residue dry, otherwise it would be difficult to remove. I would think another etching and then immediate power wash, before it dries, would take care of it.

 

[pauls_workshop]

Hi there,

When you do the acid etching, it will leave an acid residue. This has to be neutralized with a basic component. Epoxy likes slightly basic in the floor as the end result, which you won't get if the acid is not properly neutralized. Baking soda is sometimes used. I used ammonia after I had used vinegar on the floor to clean out the cement dust after grinding (vinegar is acidic too). Ammonia is basic. (Vinegar/water and mopping also pulls out cement dust from the floor after grinding really well, esp if you did wet grinding.) After you neutralize properly, you then have something else to do. The combination of the acid with the base will form salts, as discussed above. These also have to be removed from the floor. Best way to remove salts is with water via a power washer, several times to best effect. Then dry 7 days and you should be good to go. Also, if in doubt, Shea knows!

- Paul

 

[flatstick]

This is what was on my floor after etching, I believe the same white residue the OP is talking about. The main thing that I did was to not let the floor dry with this on it. I etched the floor, rinsed it and immediately power washed it.

As you can see in the pic the areas that had been power washed and the areas that had not been yet. I had read on line to not let the residue dry, otherwise it would be difficult to remove. I would think another etching and then immediate power wash, before it dries, would take care of it.

The picture you have there does look like my floor with the white residue. I did try and power wash the next day with a 3,000 psi power washer. the reside seemed to disappear, like in your picture but came back when it dried. I am wondering if the calcium was driven in deeper by using the pressure washer ( assuming that the acid did not get Neutralized or flushed enough on the first etch ? ) yesterday after work I ran the pressure washer over it again with a surface cleaner attachment. again it seemed to work until it started drying . maybe I need to try another kind of cleaning agent ( other then the TSP ) to remove the calcium and then power wash. try another kind of acid maybe something milder and make sure to flush with baking soda better this time , then flush with hose, then power wash ? I never would have thought it would be this hard after I did my last porch as it only took one attempt. been looking online for tips to remove calcium and most keep saying to use an etch again. I did that last night and it did not seem to work hmmmmm ?

 

[bobscogin]

not sure exactly what fiber crete is but there were some small stands ( I assumed it was fiberglass )

Could be fiberglass, but most likely it's polyethylene fiber. That's the most cost effect, commonly used fiber.

Bob

 

[Coloradotrailrider]

My exact process was to etch my floor twice to get the profile I was after. I used 50/50 muriatic acid to water in a pump sprayer. The acid I used was from Lowes, the full strength kind. Next I power washed all the residue off. Then I used diluted ammonia in the pump sprayer to neutralize anything left in the concrete followed by another power wash. All this was done without letting anything dry.

I guess all concrete is not the same because after I was done I didn't have a residue left over.

 

[flatstick]

thanks for the information on how your etching went. I followed the process listed in the link below yesterday after work, minus the ph testing. I did 2 of the 4 sections. after the initial flush and final rinse I power washed any light areas that I could detect, then flushed again with a lot of water. when the concrete started drying out the white color spots started coming back. spent another 4 hours yesterday and still not happy with how this is going. looking at the process in the link I figured my mistake the first time was not enough baking soda. ran my pressure washer for over an hour straight on the two slabs trying to pick out the light spots and blast the heck out of them. thought I finally had it as my concrete looked a lot darker . starting to wish I left the nice smooth finish in my garage and did not mess with it. I did get my acid from Lowes and mixed it on the bottle as they suggest 24 oz to 1 gallon of water yesterday. the first time I mixed it 24 oz for 1/2 gallon of water. ammonia to dilute the acid , sis not know that was an option. what other oprtion or ideas do you guys have, maybe try a different acid that leaves less calcium residue or another chemical or break up the calcium etc ???


http://allgaragefloors.com/acid-etch-garage-floor/

 

[Coloradotrailrider]

"ammonia to dilute the acid , did not know that was an option"

No definitely not an option. Don't mix the two together. The water diluted amonia is only to be used to neutralize the muriatic acid that was applied to the floor.

 

[flatstick]

I understand what you are saying about using the Ammonia to neutralize the acid. still hoping that somebody can help me figure this out. not able to move any further until the white mess goes away for good. I keep reading online the the calcium can be removed with a calcium/ mineral chemical, would that just be an acid ? will the calcium be an issue if I decide to just scrap the whole coating idea ? hate to throw away the money spent for the Legacy products but right now I can not see any other options.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Here is a good option.
Rent a Diamabrush grinder setup from the Home Depot and end it.
Best 100.00 you ever spent and is a better way to do this anyway.

 

[JakeKohl]

I still don't understand why the white residue is a problem...if he's pressure washed it and it's still there, it's attached. If it disappears when it is wet, will it not also disappear when he puts sealer on it and stay that way?

Regarding the fibers, if they are actually fiberglass, they will sand away very easily with a palm sander and 220 grit sand paper and very light pressure. If they're a plastic fiber, use the torch method but being careful to not heat the concrete.

 

[flatstick]

Here is a good option.
Rent a Diamabrush grinder setup from the Home Depot and end it.
Best 100.00 you ever spent and is a better way to do this anyway.

just finished painting my garage last week so not looking to make any more dust. also spending a lot more money is not what I had in mind. if I am going to shell out any more cash I can just install tile or something else at this point. hard to believe there is not an easier solution to some calcium residue. I have rinsed and power washed so much the water company asked if I need another line installed if you think about it this install has gotten off to a lousy start , how can one expect the rest of it to go like it should ? I was told etching would be no problem ummmmmm not quite .

 

[flatstick]

I still don't understand why the white residue is a problem...if he's pressure washed it and it's still there, it's attached. If it disappears when it is wet, will it not also disappear when he puts sealer on it and stay that way?

Regarding the fibers, if they are actually fiberglass, they will sand away very easily with a palm sander and 220 grit sand paper and very light pressure. If they're a plastic fiber, use the torch method but being careful to not heat the concrete.

Thanks for the advice on the fiberglass. have to admit hitting the white spots with 3,000 for a few minutes at a time from close range you would expect them to go away. well either way we learned some valuable lessons from this. first one is attempt to etch before you spend a lot of money on a product you can not use and second not all concrete reacts the same way every time as mine does not want to cooperate in a normal way.

 

[graffix000]

What tip on the pressure washer are you using? I assume you tried several, but just because it is 3000 psi, the output is still controlled by the tip.

Good luck figuring it out, but I would think at 3000 psi and close range, it should be able to blast the white deposits left.

 

[flatstick]

What tip on the pressure washer are you using? I assume you tried several, but just because it is 3000 psi, the output is still controlled by the tip.

Good luck figuring it out, but I would think at 3000 psi and close range, it should be able to blast the white deposits left.

I used every tip that came with my pressure washer. started out with the mild 40 degree, then the medium most used 25 degree, then the 0 degree. it should come out everybody says but yet it remains. for all you looking to epoxy or coat make sure to test your floor before buying product , do not get all caught up in the hype like I did anyhow there has to be a better solution than throwing more money at the problem. can not believe nobody else has had the same issue and found a solution other than what I tried. regretting my choice more and more each day . anybody want to trade my products for some other type of flooring such as tile of racedeck etc... shoot me a message please.

 

[Zmw]

Here is a good option.
Rent a Diamabrush grinder setup from the Home Depot and end it.
Best 100.00 you ever spent and is a better way to do this anyway.

I am no expert, only having done 1 floor. BUT - why not diamond grind the floor??? Makes sense to me.

You spent more money on the pressure washer then the cost of renting a diamond grinder. 5 hours give or take for a 600 sq ft garage was my experience. But it gets results!

Just diamond grind the floor and avoid all of these crazy chemical problems you are experiencing...

 

[jhelrey]

Use a weed burner that has a wide flat flame and you can hold it standing up.

Seriously, I will never again use the fiberglass in any concrete. My building slab does not have it thank goodness, but the outside cement does and it doesn't do anything to help the cracking situation. Its short strand and has little strength in this respect. Its more of a scam than anything. Use reinforcing wire, or better yet, rebar grids on chairs and do it right. Mine has reinforcing wire and I really wished it had the rebar, but it only has a couple of hairline cracks in it after 14 years so I cannot complain.

Charles

Have you ever pulled up a sidewalk, etc. with fiberglass in it? What a PIA! It does work! Just won't stop cracks.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

just finished painting my garage last week so not looking to make any more dust. also spending a lot more money is not what I had in mind. if I am going to shell out any more cash I can just install tile or something else at this point. hard to believe there is not an easier solution to some calcium residue. I have rinsed and power washed so much the water company asked if I need another line installed if you think about it this install has gotten off to a lousy start , how can one expect the rest of it to go like it should ? I was told etching would be no problem ummmmmm not quite .

Flatstick:
I was not trying to be sarcastic.
Just trying to get away from this troublesome etching situation. It is robbing you of your confidence and it should not be.

Did you try abrading it with some sand paper or a drywall screen? Let us know how much effort you need to remove it with mechanical means.

Perhaps it can be coated over.

Also... the prep is the hard part. Once you are underway you will see what I mean.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[flatstick]

I am no expert, only having done 1 floor. BUT - why not diamond grind the floor??? Makes sense to me.

You spent more money on the pressure washer then the cost of renting a diamond grinder. 5 hours give or take for a 600 sq ft garage was my experience. But it gets results!

Just diamond grind the floor and avoid all of these crazy chemical problems you are experiencing...

Well for starters I was " assured " that etching would be more than adequate for the starting prep on this project. if the floor "had " to be ground then I would have either prepared for that or gone another route. for me to grind I will need to purchase a respirator since I do not own one and track down a grinder at Home depot ? either that or I need to find somebody to pay a nice chunk of change have it done. ( are they doing it right also ) I spent a lot of time painting the entire garage and making a lot of dust and having to clean my newly painted walls is not what I want to do . my wife knows I have been wanting a garage for a long time as I do detail cars , trucks and boats. I want this floor to last for a long time.

 

[pauls_workshop]

flatstick, you might try a vinegar wash with a mop over the floor, then follow up with ammonia wash, then follow up with high pressure water spray. Try this and see if it dries without the salt residue. Not hard to try this. It looks like you just have lots of salts to get out. You may have had a really strong acid effect in the etching. - Paul

 

[nolimits76]

I have rinsed and power washed so much the water company asked if I need another line installed

Wow, this made me LOL for real.

Sorry to hear about your problems. I've been researching which floor to go with myself. I am between epoxy and RD tiles. The prep work is what has me concerned. From everything I've read....etching is not as good as grinding, period.

I think at this point, spending another $100 and a few hours to grind would be a worthwhile investment. With all the chemicals you've put on that slab, I wouldn't want to coat it unless I got a manufacturer's rep on-site to test and provide you a written warranty it is good. And I doubt that is going to happen for a small residential project. Hell, it's hard to get them out on bigger million dollar commercial projects. And then the finger pointing starts about who put what sealer on, blah, blah, blah.

My point....try the grinder. It really sounds like your best option. Again, sorry I know this has to ****.

 

[rancherbill]

I had the slab installed, asking the mason if they used any type of sealer on it. he said no sealer at all. not sure exactly what fiber crete is but there were some small stands ( I assumed it was fiberglass ) barely sticking up in a couple of the corners of the garage, before I started.

I'm not a concrete expert.

You picture looks like my garage floor.

I tried to take a pic, but it doesn't show up in the photo. Your floor has the same patterning as mine.

My floor was sprayed with a retarder. The concrete is on top of poly and you get surface cracking if the top loses moisture faster than the lower parts. Being a good GJ member I asked the guy for a recommendation for a sealer. The guy said the retarder also acted as a sealer, and he is right - nothing sticks to the floor like painting drips.

 

[flatstick]

flatstick, you might try a vinegar wash with a mop over the floor, then follow up with ammonia wash, then follow up with high pressure water spray. Try this and see if it dries without the salt residue. Not hard to try this. It looks like you just have lots of salts to get out. You may have had a really strong acid effect in the etching. - Paul

Thanks for the suggestion Pauls_ workshop. I agree that it seems like the acid really left a mess. I have both items at home and it should only take a few minutes to try. i have used the vinegar when car detailing for water spots as long as they have not been in there too long. if they did not work on a car I have non abrasive clear coat cleaners or a polish if they are really bad. thinking I will let the solution dwell for 10-15 minutes then power wash and see what happens. did I hear correctly that the dimabrush can be rented in a smaller grinder form ? do you get just the head or can one get the head, the grinder and the dust shield ?