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Ethanol and its effects?

GYPSY400

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Mar 21, 2013
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517
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Naughton Ontario
Since buying a boat a few years ago I was educated on ethanol fuels.. They told me to run no more than E10, preferably E0. The dealer said if I bring my boat in for engine work they will test my gas. If it has more than 10% ethanol in it, it will void my warranty.
Since then I have been running ethanol free Hi-test gas ( shell and Canadian tire ) in everything except my car.. And coincidentally I haven't had a carb apart since. I'm also a big believer in Sea-foam, but the jury is still out on weather I'm wasting my money or not. I usually run 1oz per gallon in my snowmobile and outboard motors.


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67King

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Nov 14, 2014
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Friendsville, TN (Knoxville area)
The site also shows that 10% ethanol fuel will dissolve up to 7,000ppm water. This number is 47x more than the ethanol free gasoline which is very close to the 50x difference between the two fuels that I stated previously. 50x was a number I found previously from several different reputable sources. 7,000ppm calculates to 0.7% water. As you can see, even with 10% ethanol in the gasoline the 5% number quoted by pedrodagr8 is way off.

Just for reference purposes, 0.5% is the concentration of water that causes 10% ethanol to phase separate from gasoline and this equates to a little less than 4 teaspoons of water per gallon of 10% ethanol gasoline.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html

I am skeptical of those claims. They seem to contradict each other. If 0.5% water will cause phase separation, then how can it at the same time dissolve 0.7%? The two are just incompatible.

Furthermore, while ethanol certainly has an affinity for water, it is not purely polar. In addition to the polar O-H end, it also has a CH3 end, which will readily dissolve in many organic liquids. At some point it will probably happen, but when there is 20 times as much ethanol in the fuel (10% compared to 0.5%), I just don't see it happening. What is more likely is that at 0.5%, the E10 becomes saturated, and the water falls out, but most of the ethanol would stay mixed with the gasoline. Methanol is used as a cleaning solvent specifically because it is so good at mixing with both water and organic liquids.
 

Pstychologist

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Gasoline is added at the refinery/distillery to ethanol to denature it before it leaves the plant. It's blended to E85 to put into the railcars. No pure ethanol is allowed to leave.
 

Pstychologist

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Mar 5, 2015
Messages
90
I live about 10 miles from an ethanol plant and provide corn to it. I don't disagree with your logic, but it's not logic that dictate that the ethanol must be denatured, it's the law. Since it's going to be mixed with gasoline, it's the only thing that makes sense to use to denature it. They do ship it as E85 and I don't know when they reblend it down to E10.
 

justme-

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May 24, 2014
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787
Location
Boston suburbs
Wow... as usual a lot of anecdotes, opinions and thoughts sprinkled with a few facts.

Eth in gas from the pump can be up to 30% in the real world even tho the sticker on that pump says 10% from various conditions, not the least being water content. Eth like any alcohol absorbs water... from everywhere. Adding a set amount of water to a set amount of gas and measuring the resultant seperation of the two is a way to measure the eth content of the sample of gas... it's part of a requirement for warranty from most manufacturers of EPO when a failure within warranty period is being processed.

Eth is used to increase octane in many cases, so trying to remove it will lower the octane. 2 stroke engines need higher octane to avoid pre-ignition which will destroy the engine. Stihl requires 87 octane for example. Starting with 92 octane IF removing the eth dropped it 3 points you'd be left with an unusable fuel from too low octane. Does adding water pull out eth - yes, will it pull 100% - possibly. Is that a smart thing to do instead of buying better grade gas from the pump or definite no eth gas... not IMHO.

Better grades of gas (higher octane) have better additive packages in them which always include a stabiliser letting the fuel stay usable longer and helping to keep the eth in suspension longer. K-100 and Startron are the best additives you can get from the store we've found that actually work. The old Stabil red isn't what it used to be and doesn't work as well in our and several other local shops independant tests.
DO NOT run your engine dry for storage, fill the tank to the top with treated or no eth fuel and ensure you run it long enough to get some of that through the carb. The largest issue with storage is from evaporation of the gas... draining and running it dry makes it happen instantly. You want to avoid the drying and resulting residue in the carb passages and removing the eth/h20 reduces corrosion. Since ETH absorbs water from everywhere, including the air you want the tank as full as possible to remove as much air contact as possible. Temp changes will form condensation inside the fuel tank and add to the problem in a partially full tank as well.

2 strokes are even MORE susceptible to eth problems and improper storage than 4 strokes because diaphragm carbs used on them are so small and the passages even more so. In most cases it's not possible to properly and completely rebuild and clean a diaphram carb from a small engine. The cost alone in many areas is more than replacement, but the actual physical job of doing it is almost always less then perfect.

quality 2 stroke mix oil usually has some additives in it, among them is normally a fuel stabiliser. Gas is also formulated differently for different regions based on climate and temp. Winter formulation in florida is different than winter in Maine. Changes in formulation happen gradually - april is usually the worst since the weather can be colder or warmer thus the formulation can be out of sync. Worse, gas bought april is often winter blend which will run poorly in warmer weather even vapor locking. Gas isn't meant to be stored more than a month in your can in the shed. Buy a small can not a 5 gallon, keep it full and refill it often instead of buying 10 gallons in April for the whole summer.

this is what I do for a living - I'm an Stihl silver cert'd OPE tech.
 

toyotadriver

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Dec 30, 2010
Messages
1,586
SO much incorrect information in this thread it makes my head spin.

Ethanol isn't the monster the internet has made it out to be. Gas without ethanol will also go bad. Ethanol has some very beneficial side effects in fuel systems including cleaning and drying the fuel system out.

I run ethanol fuel in everything I own including chainsaws, a weed eater, mower, and a boat. No issues with it.

I also used to be a small engine mechanic once upon a time. Guess what....most small engine mechanics don't know their head from their ***. But, they routinely use the evils of ethanol story for a scapegoat when someone is upset when their equipment needs repair that's going to cost $$$$.

If you don't want to use ethanol....I don't care. But, ethanol doesn't cause all the horror stories that it's blamed with.
 

redmondjp

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Nov 25, 2014
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Location
Redmond, WA
SO much incorrect information in this thread it makes my head spin.

Ethanol isn't the monster the internet has made it out to be. Gas without ethanol will also go bad. Ethanol has some very beneficial side effects in fuel systems including cleaning and drying the fuel system out.

I run ethanol fuel in everything I own including chainsaws, a weed eater, mower, and a boat. No issues with it.

I also used to be a small engine mechanic once upon a time. Guess what....most small engine mechanics don't know their head from their ***. But, they routinely use the evils of ethanol story for a scapegoat when someone is upset when their equipment needs repair that's going to cost $$$$.

If you don't want to use ethanol....I don't care. But, ethanol doesn't cause all the horror stories that it's blamed with.

I'm exactly the opposite of you. I use to think it was no big deal until I had massive equipment problems - I've almost burned through an entire 25' roll of 1/4" fuel line in the past couple of years. I've had pump gas go bad in just a couple of months sitting in my mowers over the dry summer months. I've rebuilt more carbs than I care to remember. In many cases, it is cheaper on 2-stroke equipment to just buy a new Zama carb online for $25-40 than it is to rebuild one.

Since I have switched to ethanol-free fuel, life has been wonderful. I leave all of my equipment full of it over the winter and everything starts right up in the spring (just started up the riding mower tonight after having sat since last October - no problem at all).

Smell pump gas - in my area, it smells like paint thinner. Now smell E0 gas - it smells like gasoline.

Check for a station that sells alcohol-free gas near you at this website: www.pure-gas.org

I recommend E0 gas for outdoor power equipment for all of my friends and customers - I've seen how much better it works. No more white, crusty, corroded carburetor bowls and clogged up jets. The alcohol hardens the rubber parts, and the water that the alcohol attracts does the rest (corrosion).
 

JonnyMac

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Dec 15, 2012
Messages
845
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Victoria, Australia
Research what comes out of the pump, every pump, in brazil..
its e100.
The only difference in the engine and vehicle architecture for brazilian sold vehicles which are sold in other markets is the addition of whats known as a starter tank to assist cold weather cranking which makes the atomization of ethanol less happy when trying to ignite.
E85 is also sold in many markets with no great affect on modern engines as long as the vehicle is designed to use it.
There is no question that older engines will suffer adverse affects but modern engines will have no problems with running ethanol.
The major problems we have seen is the quality of the ethanol once stored at the gas station. Poor tank cleanliness will result in poor quality fuel and nearly all those problems come down to high water content..
 
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HairMetal

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Jan 9, 2014
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303
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Finland
The 95E gas in this country (Finland) can cause the carbs small engines gunk up with orange or red goo in weeks and destroys carb seals too.
 

Notgrownup

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Location
Snow Hill NC
Not sure but I only put non ethanol fuel in my equipment. I also use a tankful in my Harley every once in a while and additives.
 

junkyardwarrior

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Nov 17, 2014
Messages
174
Been in the small engine business for almost 25 years.

Last year (2014), over 85% of our repair work has been fuel system related. Much of that due to staled fuel or fuel storage problems.

In my own personal opinion, based on the typical year's worth of repairs (usually averaging about 2100 tickets a year), it really doesn't make any difference whether it's got ethanol in it or not. 2 reasons I believe this. One, in 2010 a local fuel station started carrying E0 fuel, IOW, no ethanol. At first I didn't believe them, so I bought fuel and tested it. And every time I tested, it was correct. Zero % ethanol. From time to time I'd get a batch with less than 1% but that is still nothing. A LOT of customers were pointed in their direction thinking that perhaps I could try to help their problems with fuel system issues. But guess what? They still showed up within a year's time needing carb cleanings or the like.

Reason #2 is this. The gas stations are not required by federal law to label fuel as "up to 10% ethanol" unless the fuel is 7% E or higher. That means "non-ethanol" fuel that contains up to about 5.5% can be labeled as "pure gas". Also verified at another station local to work by using the test strips.

It is not so much the Ethanol that's causing the problems. It's a combination of things. Sure, phase separation causes issues but it's a very small issue in the grand scheme of things when dealing with all the fuel system problems. What I'm personally seeing in my area is lack of education and/or stubbornness. There is not one doubt in my mind that today's fuel is junk. But then we need to ask what is different between today's fuel and fuel of "yesteryear". Used to, we could put a gallon of fuel in a gallon jug and it could sit for up to a year and it'd still work fine. This is not the case now. And for a lot of reasons. First reason is that fuel systems have become MUCH more sensitive over the last ~10 years. Thanks to the US EPA's mandates and requirements. They all burn fairly lean now and have for a while, at least compared to the old 5hp briggs and the like; which would run on beer or anything else for that matter. The passages inside the carbs have gotten so small that they plug MUCH easier. Secondly there is no doubt, at least in my own mind, that fuel is designed for one thing. Cars and trucks. But cars and trucks have had electronic fuel injection for over 2 decades now. EFI is much less sensitive to fuel quality due to it's basic designs. High pressure. Where a carburetor relies on a very small pressure drop to draw fuel through a jet, uphill in a lot of cases. Any restriction is going to cause problems. The fuel that we have now, formulated for cars, evaporates...and evaporates FAST. Get yourself a quart jar and put a mark on it about halfway up. Then pour some gas into it, stopping the fuel level at the mark. Leave it sit outside away from anything that can knock it over and obvisouly away from spark or ignition sources. Come back an hour later. About 15% of what you poured in will be gone. If it's a warm humid day, watch the jar closely and you'll see water vapor on the outside. Evaporation causes a temperature drop which causes vapor to condense. It also condenses inside the jar which "clouds" the fuel and if you let it sit long enough, it will gather up at the bottom of the jar as pure water. I used to have some pics of testing this on my own time, deleted them from the phone. But this is the same processes that happen in small engines. The fuel tanks are all vented, which allows moisture to enter as fuel evaporates. That is why you're seeing ventless fuel cans (which I hate).

So with all the problems I'm seeing-at least in my area-(mid south, US), the only suggestion I can offer is prevention. In other words, don't let the fuel sit in cans for more than a few weeks. I tell folks not to store it for more than 2 weeks without using it up, which might mean going with a smaller gas can. Or using the equipment more. Whatever you can do to keep it from going stale. I've noticed on my outboard (4 stroke 25hp Yamaha) that if the fuel sits in the 3 gal tank for more than about 2 weeks, it won't run right. Still runs but not right. I have to make sure to dump it out, usually into my Mustang, if I'm not going to use it up. If I let it sit for a month, forget about it idling. It usually means I've got to pull the carb and clean the pilot jet. Those passages are tiny and plug really easy. These types of experience is what I base my suggestions to our customers on. At this time, I believe that there is not a single additive on the market that works...and I've tried a bunch. Phaser, Yamalube, Stabil, ain't found one yet that will do what it's advertised to do. The Phaser rep comes by once a year and takes a quart of gas in a glass and pours water into it. Of course the water goes directly to the bottom. Then he puts a few drops of his product in it and shakes it up. The water doesn't settle to the bottom now. He says his product eliminates water. He is full of it. The water is still in there and if I let the glass sit for an hour or so, it'll separate right out exactly as it did before. Snake oil-all of them, IMO.

Think of today's cat-pee gas as saltwater. As it evaporates, it leaves the stuff behind that nobody wants; as saltwater evaporates is leaves behind the salt and other unwanted stuff. Same principle with the exception of what is left behind when the gas evaporates, what is left is unusable.

I stand behind my opinion that prevention is the only reliable cure.
 

brook41

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Oct 26, 2013
Messages
78
Location
NY Metro
+1 change gas frequently, gas stabilizers are ineffective for ethanol fuels. I run my snowblower dry and drain out what is left .
 

LUKE221

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Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
122
Location
TEXAS
Yes! I'm lucky enough to have a regional airport close by that I can walk onto the flight line with a gas can and get LL 100 AV Gas. You just put your credit card into the machine and when it ask for the tail # you input "cash".

That is a really neat idea that i will be trying soon
 

Canoe50

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Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
234
Location
Rochester, NY
Your have to love the stories..........."I never had an ethanol problems so it must OK stuff"..........that's like saying my uncle smokes 3 packs per day and does not have cancer.....so smoking is actually good for you.

Any small engine dealer or car / motorcycle collector will confirm the issues with ethanol fuel especially related to storage.........ethanol is huge industry wide issue. The small engine guys will tell you it has put their kids through college and funded their retirement.

Fuel storage in warm humid weather is the most challenging.
As for SEAFOAM.........pull up the MSDS.......one of the main ingredients is alcohol.

Finding no ethanol fuel and using STABIL are the best line of defense.
In some regions finding no ethanol fuel maybe near impossible.
Draining the carb on an ATV , motorcycle , boat motor or generator if it is stored more than 30 days is critical.

For the record fuel going bad over time has always been a problem ( it funded my college education, working at the JD, Stihl, Yamaha dealer) ethanol has just made the problem huge and under the right conditions fuel can go bad in 30 days.

As brianh stated, what stories? People like myself & others who've had no issues with ethanol gas are simply stating our experience using it. You're putting words in our mouths & doing plenty of assuming......"so it must be OK stuff".......that wasn't said nor implied.
And your tobacco analogy is too ridiculous to even comment on.
 

NC-Shaun

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Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
662
Wow... as usual a lot of anecdotes, opinions and thoughts sprinkled with a few facts.

Eth in gas from the pump can be up to 30% in the real world even tho the sticker on that pump says 10% from various conditions, not the least being water content. Eth like any alcohol absorbs water... from everywhere. Adding a set amount of water to a set amount of gas and measuring the resultant seperation of the two is a way to measure the eth content of the sample of gas... it's part of a requirement for warranty from most manufacturers of EPO when a failure within warranty period is being processed.

Eth is used to increase octane in many cases, so trying to remove it will lower the octane. 2 stroke engines need higher octane to avoid pre-ignition which will destroy the engine. Stihl requires 87 octane for example. Starting with 92 octane IF removing the eth dropped it 3 points you'd be left with an unusable fuel from too low octane. Does adding water pull out eth - yes, will it pull 100% - possibly. Is that a smart thing to do instead of buying better grade gas from the pump or definite no eth gas... not IMHO.

Better grades of gas (higher octane) have better additive packages in them which always include a stabiliser letting the fuel stay usable longer and helping to keep the eth in suspension longer. K-100 and Startron are the best additives you can get from the store we've found that actually work. The old Stabil red isn't what it used to be and doesn't work as well in our and several other local shops independant tests.
DO NOT run your engine dry for storage, fill the tank to the top with treated or no eth fuel and ensure you run it long enough to get some of that through the carb. The largest issue with storage is from evaporation of the gas... draining and running it dry makes it happen instantly. You want to avoid the drying and resulting residue in the carb passages and removing the eth/h20 reduces corrosion. Since ETH absorbs water from everywhere, including the air you want the tank as full as possible to remove as much air contact as possible. Temp changes will form condensation inside the fuel tank and add to the problem in a partially full tank as well.

2 strokes are even MORE susceptible to eth problems and improper storage than 4 strokes because diaphragm carbs used on them are so small and the passages even more so. In most cases it's not possible to properly and completely rebuild and clean a diaphram carb from a small engine. The cost alone in many areas is more than replacement, but the actual physical job of doing it is almost always less then perfect.

quality 2 stroke mix oil usually has some additives in it, among them is normally a fuel stabiliser. Gas is also formulated differently for different regions based on climate and temp. Winter formulation in florida is different than winter in Maine. Changes in formulation happen gradually - april is usually the worst since the weather can be colder or warmer thus the formulation can be out of sync. Worse, gas bought april is often winter blend which will run poorly in warmer weather even vapor locking. Gas isn't meant to be stored more than a month in your can in the shed. Buy a small can not a 5 gallon, keep it full and refill it often instead of buying 10 gallons in April for the whole summer.

this is what I do for a living - I'm an Stihl silver cert'd OPE tech.

Startron is garbage too. I posted up my findings on this in my earlier post in this thread. If it matters any, which it doesnt....I am a Honda certified motorcycle technician :thumbup:

Ethanol is in fact as bad as most here realize....
 

thebeekeeper1

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Sep 5, 2012
Messages
1,011
Location
Illinois
Startron is garbage too. I posted up my findings on this in my earlier post in this thread. If it matters any, which it doesnt....I am a Honda certified motorcycle technician :thumbup:

Ethanol is in fact as bad as most here realize....

It's yet another of those liberal ideas "so good it has to be mandated." :mad:
 

CNGsaves

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Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
It's yet another of those liberal ideas "so good it has to be mandated." :mad:

Actually, the little town of Liberal, KS has lots of natural gas !!! :D They don't have ethanol and don't believe in it !! ;) They are "liberal" in a good way !! :thumbup:

Now, it's Hugoton, KS you have to worry about. They are the helium resource of world, have lots of natural gas . . . . . YET . . . they sold out to have ethanol plant in town. There goes all their water, and that NG will be used to heat up cookers for the **** ethanol. Craziness is everywhere with "promise of jobs" that boondoggled the minds of those in Hugoton !! :sad:
 

Pstychologist

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Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
90
All these posts about how mechanics are paying for their kid's college on ethanol shows what a great job creator ethanol really is!
 
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jsantoro

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Mar 14, 2007
Messages
15
For those of us with older motorcycles Ethanol has been a disaster. This is an Amal float bowl. The first pic it was just ultrasonically cleaned the second picture after 5 months of 10%ethanol and endless cleaning of idle passages in between. I have recently found an ethanol free gas station very close and no fiddling in the last 4 months. This particular motorcycle I've owned since 1978 and never touched the carbs until the Ethanol revolution. Pure ****.

0328101611a_zpsmo0quc0l.jpg


0328101500a_zpsahwycupi.jpg
 

justanengineer

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SO much incorrect information in this thread it makes my head spin.

You said it. :thumbup:

Every summer we get threads asking/griping about ethanol in lawn equipment. Every winter we get threads asking/griping about diesel gel'ing. Thankfully the threads about ULSD's effects on fuel train components have died down, and I'm sure there was just as many talking out their backside about gas going unleaded decades ago among other fuel related problems. All of them get loaded with "facts" and "science" that is horribly misconstrued or simply wrong. In reality, diesel doesnt gel in the continental US and ethanol isnt any big deal, nor is ULSD or even unleaded gas for most of us. The reality is that ethanol's been in our gas for ~15 years now in most areas (longer in some) and manufacturers have been developing engines around its idiosyncricies for a decade or so longer. Sure, some companies still make **** equipment that cant handle it and LOTS of folks beat the piss out of an engine while failing to maintain it properly, thats a given.
 

bob15

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Dec 8, 2011
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Northeasten, CT
In reality, diesel doesnt gel in the continental US

Really? Try running summer blend # 2 fuel in a New England winter and tell me what happens when the engine dies. So when I would go to a farm and find the fuel wouldn't flow, that isn't gelling?



ethanol isnt any big deal, nor is ULSD or even unleaded gas for most of us. The reality is that ethanol's been in our gas for ~15 years now in most areas (longer in some) and manufacturers have been developing engines around its idiosyncricies for a decade or so longer. Sure, some companies still make **** equipment that cant handle it and LOTS of folks beat the piss out of an engine while failing to maintain it properly, thats a given.

So replacing fuel lines on a 10 year old chainsaw due to the ethanol turning the lines to mush is my fault due to poor maintenance? Until we (state of CT) were forced into having gas with MTBE and later ethanol, we never had gas issues. Now we do, with rubber hoses turning into mush, needles with rubber tips deteriorating and carbs that gum up worse than ever.

And no, stabilizers won't prevent rubber damage from happening.

I guess you're also saying that I should junk my antique equipment because they were design to run on gasoline....not **** fuel that does more damage than good, in more than one way.....corn prices go up, so livestock & beef prices go up, and even the cost to make a gallon of ethanol is higher than what it's sold for.
 

SantaAna12

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Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,091
You said it. :thumbup:

Every summer we get threads asking/griping about ethanol in lawn equipment. Every winter we get threads asking/griping about diesel gel'ing. Thankfully the threads about ULSD's effects on fuel train components have died down, and I'm sure there was just as many talking out their backside about gas going unleaded decades ago among other fuel related problems. All of them get loaded with "facts" and "science" that is horribly misconstrued or simply wrong. In reality, diesel doesnt gel in the continental US and ethanol isnt any big deal, nor is ULSD or even unleaded gas for most of us. The reality is that ethanol's been in our gas for ~15 years now in most areas (longer in some) and manufacturers have been developing engines around its idiosyncricies for a decade or so longer. Sure, some companies still make **** equipment that cant handle it and LOTS of folks beat the piss out of an engine while failing to maintain it properly, thats a given.

Interesting. When is the last time you rebuilt a two-stroke carbuerator?
 

justanengineer

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Really? Try running summer blend # 2 fuel in a New England winter and tell me what happens when the engine dies. So when I would go to a farm and find the fuel wouldn't flow, that isn't gelling?

Nope, what youre experiencing is the water condensing out and clogging filters and lines, not the actual fuel gel'ing as is commonly thought. I grew up on the farm in NY and my folks live within spitting distance of Canada, CT winters pale by comparison and my folks still use #2 all winter. Quality filters, fuel, and fuel storage do wonders for keeping the moisture content down. I also spent 4.5 years living in Alaska and worked on a lot of equipment that needed to be started at -70F and was fueled from 55 gallon drums that had sat weeks outside in the bush at those temps. Believe it or not, at extreme temps a drum of antifreeze will freeze solid long before diesel will gel. Admittedly on a very rare occasion I did find fuel that had actually gel'ed up there, but never here in the continental states. If you were wondering I now design engines for an OEM and occasionally deal with special design considerations for cold starting. I'm no expert on fuels or chemistry, just sharing my experiences and $0.02.
 

justanengineer

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Interesting. When is the last time you rebuilt a two-stroke carbuerator?

Not the answer I'm sure youre looking for but....summer 2012 when I invested $5 in a gas can from the local Re-store and was a combination of foolish and cheap when it came to washing it out before use. Long story short, the can was clean enough that I thought it was new, apparently I was wrong. I bought my current trimmer and buggered it up the same summer.

Last well-used rebuild wouldve been 2011 when I was given the 2nd Weedeater cheapie.
 
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justme-

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May 24, 2014
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787
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Boston suburbs
Jeremy - no eth isn't so much an emissions thing as it is an oil independence and political thing. Research the farm bill and the corn subsidy.
Stihl recommends 89 octane or higher for the octane boost and the additive package however I recommend 92 however (without trying to remove the eth) because there is about a gallon of gas in the pump hose already when you get there and odds are unless you pull in right after a corvette or other high performance car that needs 92 just filled up you're going to get a gallon of 87 which will cut a 2-3 gallon gas can you're trying to fill with 87 down. The resulting fill under the same case with 93 should give you slightly over 89 in the worst case. Plus, most people either use 87 or 93 which means the average station sells significantly 89 thus the 89 you get out of the pump is already older than the other two grades reducing storage life in your can and equipment.

SO much incorrect information in this thread it makes my head spin.

Ethanol isn't the monster the internet has made it out to be. Gas without ethanol will also go bad. Ethanol has some very beneficial side effects in fuel systems including cleaning and drying the fuel system out.

I run ethanol fuel in everything I own including chainsaws, a weed eater, mower, and a boat. No issues with it.

I also used to be a small engine mechanic once upon a time. Guess what....most small engine mechanics don't know their head from their ***. But, they routinely use the evils of ethanol story for a scapegoat when someone is upset when their equipment needs repair that's going to cost $$$$.

If you don't want to use ethanol....I don't care. But, ethanol doesn't cause all the horror stories that it's blamed with.
wow are you misinformed. I will agree many small engine mechanics are poorly educated in the factual aspects of the things they fix but the same is also true in the general public on all sorts of issues. Noone has said gas doesn't go bad without eth - the poor refining quality of todays gas including the absence of certain chemicals are what causes it to go bad so fast. Many of those are gone from EPA requirements while others are a function of the refinery using pulling them out for other uses where they were not needed or desired in the past. Eth has little effect on that.

Eth does NOT remove water from your fuel, if you want fuel line dryer/antifreeze use isopropyl which actually stays in suspension in gas. It's true eth is an effective cleaner to a point. It will start dissolving the residue from old gas in a carb, which usually results in an engine that starts after a storage period and runs ok for a while then exhibits fuel problems...from the deposits now clogging a passage or jet thanks to the eth's solvent properties.

You've been lucky with your experiences or you're followed proper storage and maintenance procedure for all your equipment - either is possible if you were a tech for those years as you said. It's a fact that eth causes corrosion in aluminum carbs from the water it absorbs and carries. It can and does endure phase separation and we all know engines don't run on water. It's percentage does vary and does contribute to engine failures in 2 stroke engines when it exceeds a certain percentage - often from simply being a solvent (as you point out) and acting against the mic oil in the fuel. Reducing the oil or it's ability to lubricate when you already have a very low 50:1 mix running lean per EPA rules and lean faults are going to happen.
I assure you you're opinion on the "evils" of eth are flat out wrong. The issues with it are well documented and taught by all the engine and OPE companies in their training schools. On a personal note, I have several carbs off and on my equipment that have evidence from the "good nature" of eth you tout...one of them being a very expensive carb on one of my Harleys which has the float pin corroded in place.
Modern engines in autos and boats - fuel injected stuff is more than capable of adjusting to a higher level of eth than should be in gas normally and compensating by adjusting injector timing, duration and such and engine timing. Until OPE becomes fully computer controlled fuel injection, which will eventually as the EPA continues to mandate cleaner emissions) eth will be a problem.

As to the comment about ventless gas cans - not exactly. It was the CARB that started it to reduce the evaporative emissions from gas, nothing to do with eth and moisture absorption. Simple google search will reveal tons more about that than you ever wanted to know, including multiple cases of property damage and personal injury resulting from those can designs belching fuel on equipment being fueled.
 

bob15

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Messages
6,863
Location
Northeasten, CT
Nope, what youre experiencing is the water condensing out and clogging filters and lines, not the actual fuel gel'ing as is commonly thought. I grew up on the farm in NY and my folks live within spitting distance of Canada, CT winters pale by comparison and my folks still use #2 all winter. Quality filters, fuel, and fuel storage do wonders for keeping the moisture content down. I also spent 4.5 years living in Alaska and worked on a lot of equipment that needed to be started at -70F and was fueled from 55 gallon drums that had sat weeks outside in the bush at those temps. Believe it or not, at extreme temps a drum of antifreeze will freeze solid long before diesel will gel. Admittedly on a very rare occasion I did find fuel that had actually gel'ed up there, but never here in the continental states. If you were wondering I now design engines for an OEM and occasionally deal with special design considerations for cold starting. I'm no expert on fuels or chemistry, just sharing my experiences and $0.02.

Yes, water will freeze, but DF # 2 will begin to gel at 10-15°F. The petroleum itself has paraffin wax in it which turns to gel. The reason the DF in AK didn't gel is because you add Kero to it (same as winter blend #2).....also explains why cetane rating are different for the different DF blends.

You can design all the engines you want (probably gasoline only)...:) I too work in the engine world, more specifically in the diesel fuel system part of the industry.....we engineer, machine and test complete diesel fuel system from additives to ecu's to pumps to injectors (sold the fuel filter business off last year). Yes, we test stuff to -40°F to see what happens when everything is gelled.....(example: looking at wear on different components)

Maybe this will help you understand what happens to DF #2 in the winter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel


and/or this:

http://www.chevron.com/documents/pdf/DieselFuelTechReview.pdf
 

finn

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Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
16,203
Location
The UP, God's country
For those of us with older motorcycles Ethanol has been a disaster. This is an Amal float bowl. The first pic it was just ultrasonically cleaned the second picture after 5 months of 10%ethanol and endless cleaning of idle passages in between. I have recently found an ethanol free gas station very close and no fiddling in the last 4 months. This particular motorcycle I've owned since 1978 and never touched the carbs until the Ethanol revolution. Pure ****.

0328101611a_zpsmo0quc0l.jpg


0328101500a_zpsahwycupi.jpg

The "rust" in that carb is probably coming from the uncoated tank, as there are no obvious steel parts in the carb.

Replace the tank with a plastic or modern coated tank and you will be fine with ethanol spiked fuel.
 

junkyardwarrior

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Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
174
CARB started the ventless can thing. Correct. But there was a reason. Fuel had been changing to the point where it evaporates quicker than it used to, so CARB (and EPA) said lets stop putting vents on the cans to eliminate vapors from entering the atmosphere.

No-E fuel is nearly as bad as E-10, E-15 fuel. As a chemist, scientifically-thinking technician, I'll stand behind it until I'm given a scientific and chemical reason that E fuel is "worse". Phase separation is the main issue with ethanol fuel-and it's not been a huge problem, at least not for us at the shop. See far more old/staled no-e fuel because of the numerous stations that are carrying it.

Another issue with non-e fuel. If it's in fact 0% ethanol, it's a little more expensive. Price drives fuel sales as much as price drives Wal-Mart to sell more junk (but there is more to the wal-mart story). Usually (but not always) people buy fuel out of convenience and price in that order. I'm not driving clear across town to save $.02/gal, nor am I driving to the other side of town to buy the higher priced non-ethanol fuel.

Saw and weed eater lines were coming apart often before ethanol was put into fuel. I remember doing that stuff over 30 years ago. Same for primer bulbs, fuel tank gaskets and grommets, etc. It isn't solely because of ethanol added to fuel.

I will agree that ethanol isn't awesome...unless you're a corn farmer or using E85 for your hotrod, but I will agree that ethanol doesn't cause nearly as many problems as people think. Ethanol blended fuel is blamed for a LOT of things that it shouldn't be; and it's been my experience that 0% ethanol fuels arent much, if any, better. We have always keep in mind that gasoline is sold mostly to automotive consumers and that is what it's designed and formulated for from the get-go. The small engine, motorcycle, ATV, etc industries have had to adapt to the changes in fuel. Some of the manufacturers haven't been able to adapt effectively due to having to make BIG changes in their equipment and/or manufacturing processes.

Something worth mentioning. Did you know that winter blended fuel will boil at as low as 80°F? Find this to be an issue with some V-twins that have the carbs mounted between the heads, more with air cooled twins on lawn equipment where the hot air is being blown off of the fins and onto the carb; but I also see it every year about May/June with motorcycles (big V-twins usually). Guy's running the same gas he put in last Fall and takes a nice warm day to go for a ride, stops at the gas station to fill up and it's puking gas out of the airbox. It's boiling. Or 4 wheelers where the tank sits on top of the engine without any heat shielding. Guy opens the tank up and there is pressure on it, he looks down into the tank and it's boiling. He thinks he's sitting on a bomb-which is not the case. In both cases, ethanol isn't the problem. It's this gasoline formulation that we have now, as mandated by the US EPA. Outboards now are required to use low-permeation fuel tanks and lines. Gone are the days of having a $20 fuel tank and a $10 line. $50 is about the minimum now; but I will say that the lines are of a much better material. I believe lawn mowers are required to have low-perm tanks now too. Bad Boy had to change all their tanks in about 2013-ish, which added significant cost to manufacturing; and of course the consumer had to bear the brunt of the increase just like with the outboard tanks and lines.
 

Pstychologist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
90
I will look into that a bit, because I admit that is something I know very little about related to corn ethanol for fuel. I remember looking into the corn subsidy as a whole several years ago and I quickly became depressed when I realized that every pound of corn consumed in the economy basically just adds to the national debt.

You are going to have to explain that claim.
 

67King

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Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
573
Location
Friendsville, TN (Knoxville area)
Research what comes out of the pump, every pump, in brazil..
its e100.
The only difference in the engine and vehicle architecture for brazilian sold vehicles which are sold in other markets is the addition of whats known as a starter tank to assist cold weather cranking which makes the atomization of ethanol less happy when trying to ignite.
E85 is also sold in many markets with no great affect on modern engines as long as the vehicle is designed to use it.
There is no question that older engines will suffer adverse affects but modern engines will have no problems with running ethanol.
The major problems we have seen is the quality of the ethanol once stored at the gas station. Poor tank cleanliness will result in poor quality fuel and nearly all those problems come down to high water content..

Brazil is a dual fuel economy. There is gasoline in Brazil, as well as pure ethanol. It is easy for Brazil, though, as they have tons of sugar cane, which is MUCH more effective at producting ethanol than corn. Regardless, they by all means have gasoline. Here's a shot of the pump. A is for the alcohol, G is for the gasoline.

Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil


But the ethanol has lots of problems, as well. Deposits on valves are a HUGE concern. When E85 started becoming more common here, I was doing engine development at Ford, and it went from the mindset of "CAFE credit" to "we have to design for this." The valves are not well lubricated, the fuel will be drawn between the valve seat and the cylinder head through capillary action, where it will initiate corrosion and can eventually push out the valve seat. We had to use inconel valves and Brico (trademark name, can't recall the alloy) seats to make it live. And the PCV system had to be GREATLY enhanced. If you are even in a junkyard, look at the cam covers from the later 4.6L 2V's compared to the earlier ones to see the difference.

There are some huge issues with ethanol if the vehicle is not desgined for it. It absolutely must be. But if it is, ethanol can be great......especially for those of us who love turbos :D 108 effective octane rating, yee-ha!
 

Pstychologist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
90
I'm not seeing how corn is cheapened in practice. I wonder if you could explain that part more. Where are you getting your facts?
ETA: Oh, and I'm not taking it as an offense, rather I'm trying to understand all viewpoints. I realize I'm asking quite a bit for you to explain it, but if it brings about better understanding, I hope it's worth it. I'm pretty laid back.
 
Last edited:

apdxyk

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Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
139
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2014/03/11/obamas-2015-budget-backs-costly-corn-ethanol-subsidies

some dated review of subsidies, farm bills differ from year to year, and some bills mentioned don't make it through the Congress, so, as always, take the piece of journalism through fact checking..

So, does that make the fuel cost at the pump more expensive after all?

How about all the DI engine troubles?
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/econo...15-budget-backs-costly-corn-ethanol-subsidies
 

buba

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
135
Location
Bucksnort USA
Have you guys encountered problems with the local gas around your area and of course, your lawn equipment?

Now back to the OP's original question.....

Yes, I had issues with my older (20yrs) Stihl chainsaw and took it in for service (burnt valve). The tech also replaced the gas supply line with a new one, seems the old one was turning into mush. The tech attributed the fuel line issue to the ethanol in the gas.

I also had an issue with a Briggs carb on my lawn mower. Just like the Stihl tech said, the Briggs factory service center tech attributed the carb problem to ethanol in the gas. Since then I have been using ethanol free gas in all my outdoor equipment

I run all the 2 cycle equipment at 50 to 1 using ethanol free gas (90 octane in my area) and Stihl Ultra 2 cycle oil (full synthetic). I usually mix it in a 2.5 gal 'No-Spill' brand gas can using the pre-measured Stihl oil. I have been using this process and mix for 3 years now with no issues.
 

arz71

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
475
Location
Arkansas
Ethanol is a disaster and one of the dumbest things to come from the gov.

Thankfully some resistance has helped against this sham.
 
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