Euopeans going soft?

[T45]

What's with all the ergonomic tools coming out of the EU and the apparent preference for all-metal old school designs in the USA?

http://www.bahco.com/en/ergonomic_hand_tools.html

From ratchets to T-handles to drivers it seems the Euros have comfort grip on all the pro-level stuff while in the US it is usually offered up only as an option (one that many people aren't into).

So....what are your opinions on these new Bahco designs and is this the future or just another marketing exercise to sell junk to people who don't like to touch stuff/metal ?

NB: euRopeans ! sorry typo

 

[dnschmidt]

In Europe there is a deep concern with worker health and safety, in America, the prevailing opinion is that there's another Mexican coming across the border every 15 seconds so who cares? If you ever get the chance check out a European body shop vs. one here in Arizona the difference is amazing. Vacuum dust extraction legally mandated vs. spraying isocyanate based paints out in the open without a respirator. Americans have been brainwashed by business interests to resent OSHA in Europe similar agencies are embraced by both the workers and the business owners. German companies spend whatever it takes to keep their workers safe, in America, not so much.

 

[Mohawk Dave]

I absolutely love being comfortable.

I do this for fun, and to live the way I want. (Hunt, fish, build, etc)

I work my *** off so I can buy the best, most comfortable stuff, i.e. Eberlestock Bags, Darn Tough Socks, Snap on Soft Grip Ratchets.

I don't buy "soft" stuff because I'm soft, I buy it because I've been hard on my body for decades, from jumping dirt bikes to jumping out of planes.

I wish I would have taken better care of my body in the past. But I try now. So, if these "soft" tools are healthy, and it makes sense they are, then I'm all for it.

 

[Tronyadorable]

I need a drink !

 

[Moose364]

It's to help protect there Manicure nails inside there mechanic ware glove's

 

[espyking83]

You don't care about comfort and ergonomics until you've been wrenching for over 10 years and you wake up with your fingers/wrists hurting and you havent even clocked in yet. Good hand-feel is one of those qualities that separate premium tools from ****** ones. If using a comfortable tool makes me 'soft' then I guess I'll be having a **** sandwich for lunch, because I'm not sacrificing my quality of life for some false sense of machismo.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

I played with some of the Bahco ergo stuff at work at our Health/Safety/Environmental fair...nice stuff and seemed very comfortable. If I used my tools all day every day I'd definitely think about them.

 

[sac02]

It's to help protect there Manicure nails inside there mechanic ware glove's

Your insult would be more meaningful if you didn't have seven grammar/spelling mistakes in one sentence.

 

[bczygan]

On tough bolts I like to turn them by hitting the ratchet handle with a hammer.

Works great on Craftsman RP.

But would tear up a soft handle.

Is the next thing a soft handle wrench?

 

[mmack66]

Seems like most tool manufacturers, even here in the US, make "hard" and "soft" handled versions of some of their tools, and have for years.

 

[kc-steve]

. . . German companies spend whatever it takes to keep their workers safe, in America, not so much.

That's pure BS. Companies in the U.S.A. sell what consumers will buy. It's called "free markets." In many European countries, they sell what is regulated by governments. But the U.S.A. is moving that direction faster than I would prefer.

Steve

 

[CoopVA]

In Europe there is a deep concern with worker health and safety, in America, the prevailing opinion is that there's another Mexican coming across the border every 15 seconds so who cares? If you ever get the chance check out a European body shop vs. one here in Arizona the difference is amazing. Vacuum dust extraction legally mandated vs. spraying isocyanate based paints out in the open without a respirator. Americans have been brainwashed by business interests to resent OSHA in Europe similar agencies are embraced by both the workers and the business owners. German companies spend whatever it takes to keep their workers safe, in America, not so much.

I'm not seeing that in my trade. Our company takes safety very seriously. We have a full time Safety Director and numerous Safety Personnel assigned to various projects. Even in the office, ergonomics is taken seriously.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dnschmidt]

CoopVA, Clearly you work for a large corporation. What I'm specifically referring to are body shops which are mostly Mom and Pop operations. I'm sure that if you work for Boeing that they care since the government makes them care. With little guys that's not the case.

 

[dnschmidt]

kc-steve,

In some respects you're correct. Have you ever seen a fixed based router in Europe. The answer would be no as they are banned. Only plunge routers in Europe. Conventional routers like the PC 690 are considered too dangerous.

 

[Fugio]

Little shops will chew you up and spit you out, then replace you with a newer model without a second thought. I'm living proof of that.

Oh, and when I read the thread tittle, I was thinking it was going to be some sort of ****** joke!

 

[CoopVA]

CoopVA, Clearly you work for a large corporation. What I'm specifically referring to are body shops which are mostly Mom and Pop operations. I'm sure that if you work for Boeing that they care since the government makes them care. With little guys that's not the case.

I hear you. I have been in some small shop that were pretty scary... Still, wouldn't you think that even in a small shop, safety would be ultimately up to the individual performing the task? Even if I worked in a small shop, I would still be as safe as I could be, even if I had to provide my own respirators, gloves, eye protection etcetera...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Kracin]

i must have missed the memo where it's macho to be crippled and hunch-backed....

 

[Rock knocker]

I got carpal tunnel using their web site

 

[merbie]

'why stand when you can sit, and why sit when you can lie down' winston churchill

 

[Rock knocker]

"Believe all my quotes on the internet" - Winston Churchill, 1944

 

[Spinaker01]

Your insult would be more meaningful if you didn't have seven grammar/spelling mistakes in one sentence.

THIS!!! I was thinking exactly the same thing

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

i must have missed the memo where it's macho to be crippled and hunch-backed....

I think I wrote that memo; my back and rotator cuff are so bad right now I can't get my *** off the couch to go work on my projects! I'm two weeks shy of my 30th birthday and I'm in bad shape. I don't wrench for a living, but if I did, I would be looking for another job at the moment. My injuries stem from playing sports, and I'm paying the price. I'm an active person, so this stuff is killing me..........no gym, no sports, no wrenching. Hell, I can barely sleep at night.

 

[merbie]

"Believe all my quotes on the internet" - Winston Churchill, 1944

 

[railfancwb]

"Believe all my quotes on the internet" - Winston Churchill, 1944

In this, if in nothing else, he agrees with Lincoln.

 

[jzt]

It's to help protect there Manicure nails inside there mechanic ware glove's

Honest question, did you make it past 5th grade?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

You don't care about comfort and ergonomics until you've been wrenching for over 10 years and you wake up with your fingers/wrists hurting and you havent even clocked in yet. Good hand-feel is one of those qualities that separate premium tools from ****** ones. If using a comfortable tool makes me 'soft' then I guess I'll be having a **** sandwich for lunch, because I'm not sacrificing my quality of life for some false sense of machismo.

Agreed. Tinnitus is a *****, and so are knobby finger joints.

 

[damienga15de]

I find the softer more ergonomic design far superior to any hard handle the grip and amount of torque you can exert are much higher. Although I still only use metal finish wrenches and ratchets better feel of the tightening everything else is ergonomic

 

[Mechanical Noise]

I'll admit I've got a prejudice against comfort grips, probably because I associate them with 70s era K-Mart quality tools. Back then, soft grips were a way to cover up soft steel.

 

[SquareLJ]

i must have missed the memo where it's macho to be crippled and hunch-backed....

While I was in the Army, it was "drink water and drive on". Broke my ankle- I was told to simply tie my boot tighter and handed some 800mg ibuprofen. Going to the medics was seen as being a weak and trying to get out of duty.

Agreed. Tinnitus is a *****, and so are knobby finger joints.

I'm 28 and have tinnitus. I have to sleep with a fan on and music playing every night. Any body who has to work in noisy areas, I highly recommend spending the money on quality hearing protection.

 

[Kracin]

While I was in the Army, it was "drink water and drive on". Broke my ankle- I was told to simply tie my boot tighter and handed some 800mg ibuprofen. Going to the medics was seen as being a weak and trying to get out of duty.



I'm 28 and have tinnitus. I have to sleep with a fan on and music playing every night. Any body who has to work in noisy areas, I highly recommend spending the money on quality hearing protection.

military is a different question. when i had two different hernias while in the navy (from carrying stores up multiple ladders, 50 lbs on each shoulder). i was told that my recovery period would be 2 days, and then back to light duty. so while i was trying to hobble around the ship, navigating ladderwells and climbing through scuttles, i was also told that we had nothing on board to help me get into my rack. which was on the top.

ever try to hoist yourself, 3 days after hernia surgery where they tear into your abdomen, into a bunk that is 6 feet high?


given the option, i wouldn't have. ie, i wear gloves when i can because i don't need splinters and metal slivers. lol

 

[SquareLJ]

military is a different question. when i had two different hernias while in the navy (from carrying stores up multiple ladders, 50 lbs on each shoulder). i was told that my recovery period would be 2 days, and then back to light duty. so while i was trying to hobble around the ship, navigating ladderwells and climbing through scuttles, i was also told that we had nothing on board to help me get into my rack. which was on the top.

ever try to hoist yourself, 3 days after hernia surgery where they tear into your abdomen, into a bunk that is 6 feet high?


given the option, i wouldn't have. ie, i wear gloves when i can because i don't need splinters and metal slivers. lol

I kind of know how you feel (though, I've never actually had the pleasure of getting a hernia), I had to take the APFT with my broken ankle. Lol. OK, I'm fairly certain that climbing into your rack after surgery beats my running two miles on a broken ankle.

 

[hangfirew8]

In Europe there is a deep concern with worker health and safety, in America, the prevailing opinion is that there's another Mexican coming across the border every 15 seconds so who cares? If you ever get the chance check out a European body shop vs. one here in Arizona the difference is amazing. Vacuum dust extraction legally mandated vs. spraying isocyanate based paints out in the open without a respirator

Come to any Maryland body shop for a taste of Europe.

 

[Dave455]

Most Americans buy and own their own tools, and if they're spending their own dollars they generally want a tool that lasts. I have yet to find a soft finish handle that does!

In Europe, a lot of tools are bought by companies. These firms are not always that discerning or knowledgeable, and while they might know enough to buy say Stahlwille or whatever, they buy whichever variant of a tool is cheapest, which is generally the soft handle version!

Of course, some people would say that Americans are more discerning about their tools! There may be something in this - logically there must be a bit of 'pioneer spirit' in the DNA of every American, and with that comes an appreciation of good quality tools, and an intolerance of bad ones!

Here in the U.K. tool tastes are definitely along American lines! Good quality tools have steel handles, shiny chrome and come in red boxes! I know guys here who are using their Fathers, Grandfathers or even Great Grandfathers tools, and soft handles just won't do for that! Our European readers will probably correct me, but I don't think the Europeans pass tools down the generations quite like they do here!

 

[shockwave]

Same could be said for concern of workers with vacation time in a year in the us you are lucky to get a week paid in the auto industry at least

 

[T45]

The purpose of this thread was really to talk about tradeoffs, and I do think they cut both ways. BTW, I have alot of euro stuff and appreciate the ergo designs as much as anyone.

What jumped out with the bahco linup was how central things had become to their line-up--not just an option for a softhandle, but every tool in every category was getting a makeover.

The downsides seem to be that the US guys want lifetime+ warranty as part of their tools, and the comfort features have a finite life and are not always user servicable. Likewise, they slow down work if they need to be cleaned with solvents or etc.

One other consideration is increased bulk, making items harder to organize or store in large sets in particular.

I think/wonder if this would be the next evolution ... make stuff that is compact and yet still ergonomic. Remove the excess bulk from the design, like the metal wera ratchets.

 

[T45]

Also other examples of durable designs...that are also ergo + compact?

Please post them up

 

[wild cowboy]

In Europe there is a deep concern with worker health and safety, in America, the prevailing opinion is that there's another Mexican coming across the border every 15 seconds so who cares? If you ever get the chance check out a European body shop vs. one here in Arizona the difference is amazing. Vacuum dust extraction legally mandated vs. spraying isocyanate based paints out in the open without a respirator. Americans have been brainwashed by business interests to resent OSHA in Europe similar agencies are embraced by both the workers and the business owners. German companies spend whatever it takes to keep their workers safe, in America, not so much.

They had better hope I am never in charge at OSHA, 2/3 thirds of businesses that do anything the least bit hazardous, and most tractor trailer trucks will need a lot of revisions to continue operations!

 

[Harrison2]

CoopVA, Clearly you work for a large corporation. What I'm specifically referring to are body shops which are mostly Mom and Pop operations. I'm sure that if you work for Boeing that they care since the government makes them care. With little guys that's not the case.

ermmmm, I worked and was involved in a mom/pop body shop in the UK. Nothing was regulated, health and safety does not apply to small businesses because it is deemed that you will employee only people you can trust and deem responsible, therefore not needing to abide by any safety laws. we readily put thinners and paint left over in the trash, we sprayed cellulose in a open workshop. we didnt have to wear a dust mask, just dust tastes bad.

this all after me doing 3 years on health and safety in the UK, I was shocked but I got on with it.

I have a friend who works for his dads mom/pop auto repair shop, no health and safety there other than fire extinguishers. They readily spray hazard products into the air with no COSHH.

as for ergonomic tools, Il agree with stuff being harsh and heavy on your hands also nothing worse than picking up a cold wrench.

 

[Robbie UK]

Health & Safety applies everywhere in the UK and there is no exception for small companies. UK law places the onus on the individual as well as the employer.

It does not prohibit hazardous work and recognises that certain jobs carry risk. What it is designed to do is prevent unnecessary risk where there is a practical option to reduce it. The same law follows troops into armed conflict. So if you survive the firefight of the day you hopefully do not suffer the indignity of electrocuting yourself washing your underwear afterwards.

 

[KSB]

I receive about 2-3 safety talks on the importance of ergonomics every year.

I would bet that 9 out of 10 office buildings that you walked into you would find that every employee is sitting in a chair that adjusts every way possible, keyboards that don't resemble keyboards and monitors that adjust for every viewing angle possible. Major corporations, governments, etc. have realized that repetitive stress injuries are costing them alot of lost time and are employing strategies to reduce this lost time.

Personally although I don't have many "ergonomic" tools I am openminded to the idea. Anything that would reduce the amount of stress on my body is welcome IMHO.

Many may see what Bahco is marketing as being "soft" but I think there are going to be alot of people that see a real connection here, more so in an industrial/plant environment where employees are performing the same task over and over again.

In the near future musculoskeletal disorders and repetitive stress injuries education is going to become more important.