dcg9381
Well-known member
The practical solution is just turn it down to 40A. I don't know of anyone who actually says they need 50A for logistical reasons.
I've only seen one 100A install (Tesla).
EVSE choices?
- Thread starter dscheidt
- Start date
I've only seen one 100A install (Tesla).
I think a percieved lifestyle constraint is the want for the faster charges. I want to go when I want to, wherever that may be.
Most times it probably isn't needed.
Eventually, all types programming will exist to manage grid loading, Kw pricing incentives, priority charging (multiple vehicles), when next needs to be "topped off".........etc. Various models offer some of this now, but eventually, it will be mainstream.
In my garage, I put in a 14-50 and a 14-30. I just use an adapter dongle for my welder/plasma/heater.
Denwood
Well-known member
One EV on a 16A@240V setup, and the 2nd on a 30A@240 setup. Even the 16A@240 is more than enough so that 100% of our charging is done at off peak rates of 8.7c/kWh.
The university here has 8 charge spots (6.6 kW) that are quite close to the buildings, and offer free charging, so hopefully my daughter will "fuel" up there when at classes. Parking can be a challenge and at -30C, it's pretty nice to have a spot that is close to the buildings. In a typical 3 hour class, her EV will add 60% charge to the pack.
nadogail
Well-known member
Charging Speed is something that is impossible to have too much of.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
But, like nearly everything else, a waste to have an excess of.
Denwood
Well-known member
There is an upside to charging at higher rates in cooler climates, where the car is not requiring extra power for pack cooling while charging at a high rate. The overhead that the EV needs, a minimum of ~300 watts, is power that does not make it into the pack. Less charge time = less power used overall. 6 hours with a 300 watt overhead is basically "wasting" 1.5 kWh of power.
This is why L2 is more efficient than L1. It's the reduced time consuming power for overhead. If you are pushing 100 kW though, that could very well require pack cooling, and then the gain is not so obvious.
With regard to EVs, and imminent death, I'm a guy who has been wrenching on cars for 40 years, including racing....and I have a hoist in my shop that is used a lot. We have two EVs. Mechanically, the simplicity is refreshing. No point in further comment on that note as it will just get this thread locked down.
This is why L2 is more efficient than L1. It's the reduced time consuming power for overhead. If you are pushing 100 kW though, that could very well require pack cooling, and then the gain is not so obvious.
With regard to EVs, and imminent death, I'm a guy who has been wrenching on cars for 40 years, including racing....and I have a hoist in my shop that is used a lot. We have two EVs. Mechanically, the simplicity is refreshing. No point in further comment on that note as it will just get this thread locked down.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Sure, but there is a balance point where the added cost of the larger hookup will outweigh savings related to that overhead. I'd not saying go small, I'm just saying that going really big may not have a material benefit.
300 watts/hr over 6 hrs saved is worth about 20-30 cents. 250 days of charging a year, is about $50-70. And that added speed is unlikely to help other than the saved energy costs.
If I was installing an evse today at my house, it would be a hardwired, 48a unit. But that's all because I don't need a service upgrade and I can do the install myself. At my folk's current house, my father had to use a dryer buddy for hookup and only has a 16a @ 240v charge rate. Despite commuting 100 miles a day, it's never been a problem, but their new house is getting a hardwired evse that will be setup at either 40 or 48a just because it's easy
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gtae07
Well-known member
If you can charge at home (which I realize many people can't do), you don't need super-fast charging for daily use. I'd bet 24A would suffice for 80% of EV owners and 40A would cover 99% of them.
Slow charging every night at home beats the pants off filling up at the gas station every week, as I'm now irritatingly rediscovering. My Tesla got rear ended two weeks ago so I've been driving the old Odyssey while I wait on the repair; "just" stopping at the gas station every few days doesn't seem like an inconvenience till you don't do it for a year...
Thread has been cleaned up again after Ryan did it once and issued a warning to all. I guess some just don't get it.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ive never seen rented parking spaces or garages anywhere around here. Such things just come with the rental.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Its definitely a thing, particularly in cities
A Leviton 1450R is $60, and weather rated is $70. While the vintage 14-50R is $$11.
Add another $100-$140 for GFCI protection cb. Plus box and cover plate. Assume labor is a wash.
You are at least 1/2 way to owning another EVSE charger if you hardwire instead.
Add another $100-$140 for GFCI protection cb. Plus box and cover plate. Assume labor is a wash.
You are at least 1/2 way to owning another EVSE charger if you hardwire instead.
Denwood
Well-known member
Good point on the GFCI requirement for an 14-50R used for EV charging. This could easily add $300 in installations like mine where a GFCI at the panel is not an option, and a spa disconnect would need to be used.
Hardwired wall chargers incorporate GFCI.
This document summarizes why a 14-50R with GFCI may actually cause issues when used with a portable EVSE, which also incorporate GFCI:
Compelling reasons for me to reverse my opinion regarding a 14-50R vs wall charger!
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rlitman
Well-known member
All Level 1 and 2 EVSE have GFCI protection baked in to their contactor control. But they also have usually ground sensing technology and THAT separate circuit has the potential to trip an upstream GFCI, because it intentionally puts a test current on the ground to ensure a low resistance ground is available. If you google search it, there are some sketchy aftermarket EVSEs out there (probably no UL listed) that have ways to turn this off, if either the EVSE is ungrounded (they are NOT intended to be used this way), or if the circuit causes nuisance upstream GFCI trips.
This is rooted in UL 2231-1 & -2 (link to a 10 year old document). In a nutshell, a cord connected EVSE can have a 20mA GFI trigger threshold if it has a ground monitoring circuit, but the standard 5mA GFI trigger level remains if there is no provision for ground monitoring. The conflict is that this pre-dates the NFPA GFCI reqirements for EVSE outlets. IMNSHO, NFPA's gone off the rails with this and a number of other "modernizations", but that doesn't fix the issue, or the chasm between NFPA and the NRTLs.
In the real world, I first learned of ground monitoring when a friend tried to plug her Level 1 EVSE into my cord reel and it wouldn't work. The 30' reel had a 18/3 cord and grounded plug and connector, but internally these cheap reels have only two slip rings and connect the ground plug to the case, linking the cord ground via the central case screw. It's a tenuous ground connection at best (safe enough on my GFCI protected circuit), that wouldn't placate the EVSE's ground monitor. I switched to a nearby commercial cord reel that had three slip rings, and it worked fine.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Wow what a mess
At least with dedicated ckts for hardwired level 2's, this conflict can be avoided. The rest remains a cluster f*ck.
Denwood
Well-known member
Exactly. The GFCI requirement on a 14-50R intended for EV charging is a new one for me. I'm not sure it's code here in Canada (Ontario) at this point. Regardless, the "value" argument certainly swings in favor of the dedicated wall charger on this issue alone. The use of a spa disconnect was something new I learned in reading over some potential 240V external GFCI solutions. We have two 100 amp panels, but using fuses. Old, but perhaps safer than some of the breaker panels out there. I have two 40amp fuses protecting the 14-50R receptacle..but no GFCI.
Now, if I add a GFCI using a spa disconnect, then there's a good change the portable EVSE will not work correctly :-(
rlitman
Well-known member
Well, according to one manufacturer, they claim 95% of the ground monitoring circuits don't trip GFCIs. In my case, I had no GFCI issues, just the cord reel grounding issue. Both reels were plugged into GFCIs, and neither tripped.
gtae07
Well-known member
FWIW I've used a portable Tesla charger at many different locations on trips and never tripped the GFCI.
gtae07
Well-known member
It was my charger used at in-laws, my parents', a vacation rental, and a friend's house. No GFCI issues to report. Now, an improperly installed 5-20 outlet... that's another story...
Are you sure there was even gfci protection to start with?
gtae07
Well-known member
Yes. I installed the 14-50 with GFCI at Mom & Dad's. In-laws and rentals etc. were garage outlets with it built into the outlet I was using.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
This 120V EVSE claims to provide 15A on a 5-15 plug.
ev-lectron.com
Is Lectron wrong for doing that, or is the homeowner wrong for plugging it into any old 15A circuit? Or is it totally legit?
Lectron Portable Level 1 J1772 EV Charger | 120V | 15 Amp | NEMA 5-15
Shop our Lectron Level 1 EV Charger - ETL Certified, 110V, 15 Amp, 16 ft Extension Cord & J1772 Cable - Portable Charger for J1772 EVs with NEMA 5-15 Plug
ev-lectron.com
Is Lectron wrong for doing that, or is the homeowner wrong for plugging it into any old 15A circuit? Or is it totally legit?
They covered it with these 2 statements:This 120V EVSE claims to provide 15A on a 5-15 plug.
Lectron Portable Level 1 J1772 EV Charger | 120V | 15 Amp | NEMA 5-15
Shop our Lectron Level 1 EV Charger - ETL Certified, 110V, 15 Amp, 16 ft Extension Cord & J1772 Cable - Portable Charger for J1772 EVs with NEMA 5-15 Plug
Is Lectron wrong for doing that, or is the homeowner wrong for plugging it into any old 15A circuit? Or is it totally legit?
"All you need is a dedicated 120-volt outlet and the proper wiring."
"It is highly recommended that the installation of electrical outlets for the charging station be conducted by a licensed and qualified electrician, adhering to the National Electric Code (NEC) and relevant local codes. Local codes take precedence in case of conflicts."
We all know the happy homeowner will plug it in to the closest recept and wonders why the circuit trips for the older builds that don't have the now required 20A recept circuit in the garage.
Sparky needs to be smart enough to realize this is a 15 amp continuous load and needs a 20A circuit.
it's entirely possible this is a "boost" feature.
80% derating is required for EVSEs, BUT, that's assuming it's not smart.
example: I have a plug in induction hob. once per power on, it'll pull 15A for 10-15 minutes, before derating to 12A, for a faster boil.
this is allowed, because it's not CONTINUOUS.
an EVSE could advertise 15A to the vehicle for a period of time, and so long as it drops the pilot signal down to 12A after a time (3 hours? IIRC), then it's not out of compliance.
for it to draw >12A continuously, it needs a 5-20P, no matter what.
From the user manual........
Doesn't seem to be a boost only......."NOTE: The charger requires a 120 VAC split phase (
). It draws a maximum of 15 Amps of continuous current."And it is more **** from China.......More copy/paste but no clue what they are writing: "Connect only to a circuit with 50 amps maximum branch circuit overcurrent protection to reduce fire risk."
"for it to draw >12A continuously, it needs a 5-20P, no matter what." Not no matter what, b/c a 15-5R duplex can carry 20A as it is permitted on 20A circuits.
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you're allowed to have 20A circuits with multiple 5-15R on them, but I think the intent is to avoid nuisance tripping, not to allow for naughty appliances. I believe appliances are still required to have plugs appropriate to their design draw.From the user manual........
Doesn't seem to be a boost only......."NOTE: The charger requires a 120 VAC split phase (
And it is more **** from China.......More copy/paste but no clue what they are writing: "Connect only to a circuit with 50 amps maximum branch circuit overcurrent protection to reduce fire risk."
"for it to draw >12A continuously, it needs a 5-20P, no matter what." Not no matter what, b/c a 15-5R duplex can carry 20A as it is permitted on 20A circuits.
so somehow it got ETL certified as an EVSE, but the cert doesn't appear to address the draw, just specific safety items.
as best i can tell this is technically "naughty" but i'd be curious to see if it's actually a 12A L1 EVSE.
the comments imply that it is
Denwood
Well-known member
The 20A circuit with multiple 5-15R is a code compliant alternative to 15 amp split receptacles used for many kitchens here. It for sure reduces many nuisance trips.you're allowed to have 20A circuits with multiple 5-15R on them, but I think the intent is to avoid nuisance tripping, not to allow for naughty appliances. I believe appliances are still required to have plugs appropriate to their design draw.
so somehow it got ETL certified as an EVSE, but the cert doesn't appear to address the draw, just specific safety items.
as best i can tell this is technically "naughty" but i'd be curious to see if it's actually a 12A L1 EVSE.
the comments imply that it is
Any EVSE allowing more than 12 amps on a 5-15R type plug is an unacceptable fire risk IMHO for the uneducated public and I’m assuming none of them would have UL/Intertek approval. I have one of these cheaper EVSE’s that will allow you to select 16A@120V and use it only at camp on a 30A RV circuit…but would never recommend it to anyone for this reason.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
I'm not any more convinced than you are. A suitable dedicated 120V outlet (installed per code and all that they said) will have a 5-20R, right? If their intent with that text is to make sure that it's on a 20A circuit, they would have put a 5-20 plug on it but that's marketplace suicide. They know people will just plug them in anywhere and want to enable that.
micromind
Well-known member
How many miles do you get from an overnight 120 volt charge?
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Assuming a 16a 120v charger, you could get about 8-10 miles per hour of charging on something like a model 3.
Less for a 12a charger, more or less for a different vehicle
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AntonLargiader
Well-known member
Depends on the charger, the season and on how long overnight is, I suppose. For my 2020 Bolt with the included L1 EVSE:
120V@12A is 1.4 kW, times... ten hours?...so 14 kWh. Times about 3.4 miles/kWh for winter road trips with heat is worst case, 48 miles. Or times 4.7 for bopping around town these days with no HVAC, 66 miles.
120V@12A is 1.4 kW, times... ten hours?...so 14 kWh. Times about 3.4 miles/kWh for winter road trips with heat is worst case, 48 miles. Or times 4.7 for bopping around town these days with no HVAC, 66 miles.